Went to 4 shops this AM to get the Alternator checked.  It is fine....????  passed 2 machines.  The battery I swapped out for the one from the GTO is still charging.  It is a trickle charger, but batt still started the car. (I Justa didn't trust it to get me home).  Still no reason for the car to die when I hit the lights.  Alt should have run everything AND charged the batt.  

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by JUSTA6

Dude, I'm stumped. The only reason I know why the car should die is when you turn on the headlights your battery voltage is so low that it cannot support both the draw for the ignition and the lights. So that leads me back to either the battery or alternator. 

Have you swapped the battery out of the GTO and run the Bird with it yet, or are you still charging it? I would be curious to see if a different (preferably newer) battery would maintain the car running. 

So you went to four shops but only 2 passed? Does that mean it failed at the other two shops, or the two shops could not test it? I suspect the latter to be honest.

For the sake of argument, have you checked wire continuity between the alternator and the battery? Maybe you have a broken wire? A long shot I know.

Does your alternator have an enclosed fuse close to it? Lucy has one and it failed once on me - the fuse cracked, got moisture in it, and the heat of the engine caused the water vapor to blow the fuse. New fuse - easy peassy.

I'm throwing things against the wall to see if anything sticks dude.

Am I understanding this correctly...When you turn the lights on...The justa the engine die...Or does the whole electrical system go dead...???

1 hour ago, JUSTA6 said:

Went to 4 shops this AM to get the Alternator checked.  It is fine....????  passed 2 machines.  The battery I swapped out for the one from the GTO is still charging.  It is a trickle charger, but batt still started the car. (I Justa didn't trust it to get me home).  Still no reason for the car to die when I hit the lights.  Alt should have run everything AND charged the batt.  

Am I understanding this correctly...When you turn the lights on...Does justa the Engine die...?? Or does the whole electrical system loose power when the lights are turned on...???

It is very possible the headlight switch itself could be the source of the issue...By Creating a dead short in the electrical system when the switch is pulled to the on position...That is something that might worth taking a good hard look at....

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by TWO LANE BLACK TOP

If the 66 GTO is like the 66 Grand Prix, there is a regulator on the firewall.

Many things can go wrong with that.

They appear to be heat sensitive, too. The factory service manual even flags that.

My original regulator works fine for about 45 minutes, less if the lights are on. After it heats up, it will drop out so the car is not charging. Battery voltage sags appreciably (I have a cigarette lighter Volt meter to keep an eye on the voltage). The panel ammeter show negative (current draw).

Then, there are the 4 wire regulators on some models vs the 3 wire on the Grand Prix.

Does you car have a regulator on the firewall?

Modern cars have the regulator built into the alternator.

Ken

Lots of questions (including myself)  1) When it died on me in Flint, it was hot from the exhaust.  Floor was melting stuff in the wife's purse.  You couldn't touch the metal on parking brake on the tunnel.  Engine temp was a perfect 160.  Car is low with side skirts that doesn't have much air flow when stuck in dead stop traffic.  Shut it off at the gas station and it wouldn't start.  Have power to everything else.  Took over 2 hours N Frostys help before it engauged/started the engine and ran fine going home.  Would not start when we got home and in the garage. 

2) next day started fine, worked on electrical issues,  replaced turn sig bulbs, underhood lights ect.  readjusted the hydraulics to open the hood evenly.  Started many times moving the car in/out of garage.  Good to go, lets take a quick cruise.  Drawn like a bug to lights, I ended up on Woodward.  Dead stop for 2 hrs.  Finally was able to get off and heading the back way home.  Now getting dark.  Got to the point I had to turn on the headlights.  Car died.  Dead key but had lights ect.  Had to think alternator.  Gauge in dash showing 8amps.  Put jumpers on for over an hour,  gauge didn't move.  Started it and with no headlights drove 3-4 miles to JustaG6 daughters and left the car there.                                                                                3)Took the battery out of the GTO.  Know for sure it was fully charged to get me home. Went to pickup car, Ran perfect home.  Loaded for show, tent, chairs, signage ect.  Meeting the club at 8am to get our parking spot at M1. 

4) WRONG, left the key on.  Battery is behind the rear pass tire on the underside. Crawled under and put the jump box on. Not much hope with a completely dead batt. By the time I crawled out N sat up.  The entire garage was full of smoke coming from the engine.  Pulled jump box off, grabbed the fire extinguisher. No flames. Followed both pos/neg cables to the starter (best I could) thinking I would find burnt wires. Nope.  Put the trickle charger on until I was able to use the hood release.  After about an hour was able to use the Hydraulics to open the hood.  Ign was working as it bumped the engine, took more charging and fired right up.                                                                                                                               5) So, need to install the heat shield I overlooked when assembling the new motor.  Funny it ran all last year with no problems.  Checked the ALT that tested good.  Charged and replaced the original battery and put er back in.  Starts right up, but do I drive/trust it to go to the Pontiac show this Saturday???

Two Lane, You bring up a great point on the switch, never thought of that, but I did drive it all the way home from Flint/Back to the Bricks with the lights on. It does start right up cold.

Ken thankz for the input.  Ready to try anything but this is my Sunbind and not my GTO.  That's having shift probs. yes I upgraded the GTO and got rid of the regulator.  Yea real smart, Can't keep up with one, so lets build another.... OHHH for the love of PONTIAC.

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by JUSTA6

1 hour ago, JUSTA6 said:

Lots of questions (including myself)  1) When it died on me in Flint, it was hot from the exhaust.  Floor was melting stuff in the wife's purse.  You couldn't touch the metal on parking brake on the tunnel.  Engine temp was a perfect 160.  Car is low with side skirts that doesn't have much air flow when stuck in dead stop traffic.  Shut it off at the gas station and it wouldn't start.  Have power to everything else.  Took over 2 hours N Frostys help before it engauged/started the engine and ran fine going home.  Would not start when we got home and in the garage. 

2) next day started fine, worked on electrical issues,  replaced turn sig bulbs, underhood lights ect.  readjusted the hydraulics to open the hood evenly.  Started many times moving the car in/out of garage.  Good to go, lets take a quick cruise.  Drawn like a bug to lights, I ended up on Woodward.  Dead stop for 2 hrs.  Finally was able to get off and heading the back way home.  Now getting dark.  Got to the point I had to turn on the headlights.  Car died.  Dead key but had lights ect.  Had to think alternator.  Gauge in dash showing 8amps.  Put jumpers on for over an hour,  gauge didn't move.  Started it and with no headlights drove 3-4 miles to JustaG6 daughters and left the car there.                                                                                3)Took the battery out of the GTO.  Know for sure it was fully charged to get me home. Went to pickup car, Ran perfect home.  Loaded for show, tent, chairs, signage ect.  Meeting the club at 8am to get our parking spot at M1. 

4) WRONG, left the key on.  Battery is behind the rear pass tire on the underside. Crawled under and put the jump box on. Not much hope with a completely dead batt. By the time I crawled out N sat up.  The entire garage was full of smoke coming from the engine.  Pulled jump box off, grabbed the fire extinguisher. No flames. Followed both pos/neg cables to the starter (best I could) thinking I would find burnt wires. Nope.  Put the trickle charger on until I was able to use the hood release.  After about an hour was able to use the Hydraulics to open the hood.  Ign was working as it bumped the engine, took more charging and fired right up.                                                                                                                               5) So, need to install the heat shield I overlooked when assembling the new motor.  Funny it ran all last year with no problems.  Checked the ALT that tested good.  Charged and replaced the original battery and put er back in.  Starts right up, but do I drive/trust it to go to the Pontiac show this Saturday???

Two Lane, You bring up a great point on the switch, never thought of that, but I did drive it all the way home from Flint/Back to the Bricks with the lights on. It does start right up cold.

Ken thankz for the input.  Ready to try anything but this is my Sunbind and not my GTO.  That's having shift probs. yes I upgraded the GTO and got rid of the regulator.  Yea real smart, Can't keep up with one, so lets build another.... OHHH for the love of PONTIAC.

JustA, can you try disconnecting the amp gage! Might be an issue there! I once had a bad amp gage that actually caught fire! Also, what happens if you start the bird up, disconnect the battery completely, than turn the lights on? May sound dumb, but if the alternator is good but for whatever reason there is an issue in the battery circuit, than the car won’t die. 

Couple of things...From what I'm gathering the problem appears to only occur when there is alot of excessive heat being generated in/around/under...etc.. The car when idling for extended periods...?? But does Ok when cooled off..

When the car is running...Have you checked the voltage output from the alternator at the battery itself...??

The battery can show a 12 volt surface charge and still be NFG when loaded up...The best way to load test the battery without having to take it out of the car is to put your voltmeter across the poles of the battery...With every thing turned on (lights/radio... ETC..) Have someone try and start the car....If the battery voltage drops off significantly (10 volts or less) while starting the engine that indicates that the battery is no good...

You mentioned smoke was coming from somewhere while having a jump box on the battery...Are the battery cables justa standard  6 gauge wire...?? Or are the cables made of a heavier gauge wire..?? 

I'm justa wondering...With the extended length of the standard 6 gauge battery cables required to reach the remote battery location along with all the excess heat from sitting in gridlocked traffic...Is Causing the 6 guage cables to become over loaded...?? Causing the cables to become excessively hot...Breaking down the effectiveness of the insulation under certain load conditions...Also justa wondering if going to a heavier 4 gauge battery cable to better handle the heat/electrical load might be the way to go...??

Might sound crazy...But I Justa thought I would throw that out there...

 

4 hours ago, TWO LANE BLACK TOP said:

Couple of things...From what I'm gathering the problem appears to only occur when there is alot of excessive heat being generated in/around/under...etc.. The car when idling for extended periods...?? But does Ok when cooled off..

When the car is running...Have you checked the voltage output from the alternator at the battery itself...??

The battery can show a 12 volt surface charge and still be NFG when loaded up...The best way to load test the battery without having to take it out of the car is to put your voltmeter across the poles of the battery...With every thing turned on (lights/radio... ETC..) Have someone try and start the car....If the battery voltage drops off significantly (10 volts or less) while starting the engine that indicates that the battery is no good...

You mentioned smoke was coming from somewhere while having a jump box on the battery...Are the battery cables justa standard  6 gauge wire...?? Or are the cables made of a heavier gauge wire..?? 

I'm justa wondering...With the extended length of the standard 6 gauge battery cables required to reach the remote battery location along with all the excess heat from sitting in gridlocked traffic...Is Causing the 6 guage cables to become over loaded...?? Causing the cables to become excessively hot...Breaking down the effectiveness of the insulation under certain load conditions...Also justa wondering if going to a heavier 4 gauge battery cable to better handle the heat/electrical load might be the way to go...??

Might sound crazy...But I Justa thought I would throw that out there...

 

Absolutely! I detailed that these problems can occur in my Grand Prix battery relocation article. I used 2/0 welding cable for the + side & 1/0 for the - side for the very reasons you mention. In any excessive run there is considerable line loss. Plus the smaller the wire the greater the resistance AKA heat! 

I will try to address the questions.  I believe it's 4 gauge wire to the starter and ground to the block.  Have never had this prob before.  As the electrical seems to be working.  Lights, hood ect.   I'm going under the assumption that the starter is getting too hot.  After thinking about it, I do not remember painting or installing the heat shield.  Finally cooled off in Flint and drove it home.  Does not explain why it died while running 2 days later, after pulling the lights on.  Charged batt off a jump, only because it was  showin 8amps with key on.  BUT had been there stuck for over 2 hrs. giving it time to cool off.   2 of the places I went checked out the ALT as good.  I can't seem to remember which of the 2 wires out of the regulator in the ALT goes to the AMP gauge.  I'm pretty sure the other goes to the ignition.  After changing the batt and firing the car, to get it home. I used the ol timers check of touching the ALT shaft in the back, with a screw driver.  It was magnetized, telling me the ALT was working.  Gary, I didn't disconnect because of replacing batt and checked ALT already. Thankz for the thoughts on this mess Two Lane.  Been so long ago,  I don't remember what size wire.  Main hot off the starter to fuse box is fuseable link.  Car wouldn't start on a bet if that was blown/burned.  Keep a spare in my tool kit for the car.  Have been too busy to drive it.  Working on too many things at one time right now.  Need to drop the starter and install the heat shield and then will have to test drive tomorrow before heading for Milford Saturday.  Heat has always been a prob on floorboard. Thinkin on wrapping the exhaust from the manifold past the curve to about the seats.  

Yeah it’s always ugly when something like that happens! Too many could be’s & not enough it’s not that. I feel for you buddy! Even though all of us are grasping at straws for you I know you know what you’re doing! More than likely something simple, like the heat. Not that it’s simple, but you know what I mean. Heat can be a real killer for electrical, big time!

Edited August 23, 20241 yr by Last Indian

Nothing yet, today.  But my Cat's engine compartment wiring harness arrived after an almost four and a half month wait.  And I got a bunch of parts from Ames.  But its too hot to go work on the car.

 

Rick

I was gonna clean the dirty girl, but i feel its my job to make the show cars look better. sooo yea that didn't happen. see ya tomorrow justa!

Have a great time at the Summer Round Up at Baker's boys. Sort of wish I was there but I’m happy to be staring at beaches here in Hilton Head too! 

Edited August 25, 20241 yr by Frosty

Don't get it, Bird ran great there N back, started when hot no prob. (but wasn't stuck in traffic) It was showing about 12V on the gauge when I got home. Yesterday I Re- adjusted the DR side exhaust and re- tightened only to make the backfire worse when shifting. Think I'm on to something to solve the backfire. Didn't have the room to drop the starter to install the heat shield.  (might have to pull the exhaust manifold) Show was awesome, Me, JustaG6, Mike, IndyJoe and ReveredGTO enjoyed some perfect fall weather.  Hit all around us and nobody scored a doorprize. Will post pic's after I get the lawn done. 

Edited August 24, 20241 yr by JUSTA6

6 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Don't get it, Bird ran great there N back, started when hot no prob. (but wasn't stuck in traffic) It was showing about 12V on the gauge when I got home. Yesterday I Re- adjusted the DR side exhaust and re- tightened only to make the backfire worse when shifting. Think I'm on to something to solve the backfire. Didn't have the room to drop the starter to install the heat shield.  (might have to pull the exhaust manifold) Show was awesome, Me, JustaG6, Mike, IndyJoe and ReveredGTO enjoyed some perfect fall weather.  Hit all around us and nobody scored a doorprize. Will post pic's after I get the lawn done. 

mow that lawn! we are hanging out 

After 5 weeks away at work (saving up extra beer money for Kiwi & I) I finally got home this morning. My missus wondered who I was until I gave her a smack on the lips. I then settled in and attended to various chores that were waiting and I walked past the GP. That was the extent of What I Did To My Car Today.

I'll take it for a burn this weekend.

2 hours ago, Fitzy said:

After 5 weeks away at work (saving up extra beer money for Kiwi & I) I finally got home this morning. My missus wondered who I was until I gave her a smack on the lips. I then settled in and attended to various chores that were waiting and I walked past the GP. That was the extent of What I Did To My Car Today.

I'll take it for a burn this weekend.

beer ??? 
did some say beer ???  

Yes indeedly doodly. I said beer. Get that silly little purple econo shopping trolley out of the shed and get it ready. I'm expecting it to blow my hair back...good luck with that, although some nostril hairs may be trailing in the wake of acceleration.

18 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Yes indeedly doodly. I said beer. Get that silly little purple econo shopping trolley out of the shed and get it ready. I'm expecting it to blow my hair back...good luck with that, although some nostril hairs may be trailing in the wake of acceleration.

No worse than my ear hair !!!! 

I have taken the bosses mini for a service in Auckland !!! 
best part is the mall next to mini garage !! A bar called baha Betty !!! Lunch !!!!!

JustA snack !!! Prawns , American style deep fried pickles , deep fried onion rings chips n hot wings !!! 
oh a beer of course 😜

I hate servicing cars 

Edited August 30, 20241 yr by 64 kiwi boni

19 hours ago, Fitzy said:

 I'm expecting it to blow my hair back...good luck with that, although some nostril hairs may be trailing in the wake of acceleration.

 

41 minutes ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

No worse than my ear hair !!!! 

T.M.I.

Way too much information boys! 
 

Farts and belching are okay topics. But nostril and ear hair is a no no. Next thing you know we will be talking about ear wax build up and the depth of your belly button lint. Hell no! Ringo might have to censor us if we go that far!

I think we need to start a new thread: Things To Look Forward To As You Get Older. Rivetting viewing for our younger, doomed audience.

I'll start if you like: Nostril hair, ear hair, eyebrow strands, back & shoulder hair...that'll do for a start.

19 minutes ago, Fitzy said:

I think we need to start a new thread: Things To Look Forward To As You Get Older. Rivetting viewing for our younger, doomed audience.

I'll start if you like: Nostril hair, ear hair, eyebrow strands, back & shoulder hair...that'll do for a start.

Are you talking about yours or your boss'?