Fitzy's GP is back!

[64 kiwi boni]

That is a super interesting test mate !

I would expect 

lower resistance  equals a better lead ! able to flow more current … 

think we need last Indians input here !!!

help !!! Last Indian 

what’s your thought on resistance verses current flow ?

[Fitzy]

Well yes - less resistance is obviously better, but why does the resistance drop once the spark plug is snapped into one end of the lead?

More to the point, the actual resistance of the spark plugs was in kilo Ohms - a significant amount.

I'm buying a Corolla. That way it won't matter how many Ohms do what - it'll just start up and run perfectly...forever. Visit my new site: Corolla Forever.

[64 kiwi boni]

1 hour ago, Fitzy said:

Well yes - less resistance is obviously better, but why does the resistance drop once the spark plug is snapped into one end of the lead?

More to the point, the actual resistance of the spark plugs was in kilo Ohms - a significant amount.

I'm buying a Corolla. That way it won't matter how many Ohms do what - it'll just start up and run perfectly...forever. Visit my new site: Corolla Forever.

Yeah ,, Corolla forever … on the dark web ! 

[Andy H]

So the solid core should be just about zero because they are just a regular copper wire but most wires are of the resistance type usually to help with radio interference and such.

Resistance wires are usually so many ohms per foot so a longer wire is more then a short one,  44 ohms sounds ok on that short wire.

As far as pluggs i don't remember the resistance but I know there is resistance pluggs and none resistance pluggs also.

How is your cap? And voltage to the coil?

[Fitzy]

Sorry about the late response. I flew home this morning and am still in Ga Ga Land through lack of sleep...and beer. My contract ran out as a Warehouse Officer and so I have gone back to driving a coach on Groote Eylandt.

I haven't even looked at the car since I mucked around with the leads. I am about to throw in the towel and sell it. So if anyone wants a very well priced 65 GP which is practically mechanically rebuilt and is 100% rust free, let me know.

[JUSTA6]

Say it ain't so mate!

[Ringo64]

Ah, bugger! Hate to see you throw in the towel but understand being overworked. Hope it works out for ya and even if you do, you still have a place here!

[64 kiwi boni]

11 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Sorry about the late response. I flew home this morning and am still in Ga Ga Land through lack of sleep...and beer. My contract ran out as a Warehouse Officer and so I have gone back to driving a coach on Groote Eylandt.

I haven't even looked at the car since I mucked around with the leads. I am about to throw in the towel and sell it. So if anyone wants a very well priced 65 GP which is practically mechanically rebuilt and is 100% rust free, let me know.

Slapping your face and i will wash your mouth out with soap!!! 

you justA stop that nonsense boy !, go to your room and justA think about what your doing ! pffft 

[Frosty]

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=403535671306936

 

 

Edited February 13 by Frosty

[indymanjoe]

17 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Sorry about the late response. I flew home this morning and am still in Ga Ga Land through lack of sleep...and beer. My contract ran out as a Warehouse Officer and so I have gone back to driving a coach on Groote Eylandt.

I haven't even looked at the car since I mucked around with the leads. I am about to throw in the towel and sell it. So if anyone wants a very well priced 65 GP which is practically mechanically rebuilt and is 100% rust free, let me know.

 

You missed April 1st by a mile...

[Last Indian]

Kiwi, Peter, my reply on both subjects, voltage & spark plug wires I will render, but a few questions. 

Peter have you taken a voltage readings at the + & - post of the battery while running? Is that were you took your reading with your volt meter or did you take it at a different connection point? Do you have an adjustable regulator? If so did you try to adjust it? Do you have a remote starter, the kind you can connect at the battery & starter then press the button to start? If so have you tried to start the car that way, which will eliminate all other car circuitry & if the car fires right up you’ll know that the slow crank issue is not with the engine (I.e. fuel, ignition, time or battery cables. And then it does lie in the car circuitry somewhere. In my opinion I would forget about all the braided ground straps, in fact I would get rid of them unless you plan on returning the car to a concourse condition. Then instead I would replace those grounds with a single 1/0 welding cable that goes to the frame & then a second leg from there to the engine. Welding cable will have the lowest loss of any cable, is the most flexible electrical wire you will find, it’s very fine strand copper wire & has as good of conductivity there is for the money. I suspect the problem lies in the car resistance circuitry since you say the battery stay charged at 12.7 volts that can’t happen unless the alternator/generator is producing at least 13 volts.

 

Spark plug wires. Now there’s a quagmire! How long have you had the Blue Streaks, as in, i.e. miles, ballpark? My guess of that there is something going to ground. It may be the wires themselves or the resistance is so high, because 41,000 (41.4K) is approaching the max of 50k which is a racing application. That it’s causing something upstream to go to ground as resistance changes. Depending on the entire system, filament or fiber stranded wires, like blue streak, can be a problem small breaks in the fibers increase resistance. These type of wires are more typical for high energy systems, excuse me as I don’t remember what you run for a ignition system, but if it’s closer to a standard System than a ultra high energy system, than those wire will tend to cause problems if there is the smallest hiccup. Old carbon filled wires or copper strand wires are more suited for old style systems, because of their low resistance. I think you are seeing a ohms drop when you add the sparks plug to the wires because they are in the open atmosphere not in the head under compression. So they become a better conductor of continuity for the energy flow through the fiber cord.

 

My two cents.

Edited February 14 by Last Indian

[Fitzy]

Hi Gary- thanks for your response. Strangely, battery reads 12.7V with engine idling, increases very slightly as revs increase. Battery reading with engine off is about 12.4V, so it doesn't seem to be discharging. Alternator AND regulator are both new. I suppose regulator is adjustable- I would have thought it should be correct as tested at the factory. I replaced both components because old alt & reg did exactly the same, which tells me there's an electrical issue with the car. I fitted a modern aftermarket fuse box in the driver's footwell to replace the rusty decrepid original one, but I never bothered to replace the wires that run through the firewall. Apparently, old style firewall connectors were never up to the task in the first place, and mine are 60 years old. Clearly, the car could benefit from a total rewire.

The momentary slow crank starting issue only happens after a run and the engine is warm. It always starts easily, but is disarming to listen to for the first 2 seconds.

As far as HT leads go, I have retro fitted my 7mm solid core (rat chewed but only cosmetically) ones but have not bothered to progress any further. I also had a similar thought to you re Blue Streak leads and HEI. That system would generate enough oomph to negate any potential resistance issue, whereas my points & condenser set up may struggle. FYI, both sets of leads are barely used from brand new, just like every other goddam component on the car!

I'm sick of scratching my head and trying to figure out the endless idiosyncrasies this car has. I've had dozens of old carb & distributor cars that were faultless long distance cruisers that you could drive anywhere. I can't even go around the block with this thing stumbling & carrying on, even though almost EVERY SINGLE THING has been replaced. I'm over it. I'll take a massive hit but it's going.

I now have to endure the horror of opening a Facebook account and advertising the car there- it's the way to go these days I'm told. Grumble, grumble..

[Last Indian]

8 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Hi Gary- thanks for your response. Strangely, battery reads 12.7V with engine idling, increases very slightly as revs increase. Battery reading with engine off is about 12.4V, so it doesn't seem to be discharging. Alternator AND regulator are both new. I suppose regulator is adjustable- I would have thought it should be correct as tested at the factory. I replaced both components because old alt & reg did exactly the same, which tells me there's an electrical issue with the car. I fitted a modern aftermarket fuse box in the driver's footwell to replace the rusty decrepid original one, but I never bothered to replace the wires that run through the firewall. Apparently, old style firewall connectors were never up to the task in the first place, and mine are 60 years old. Clearly, the car could benefit from a total rewire.

The momentary slow crank starting issue only happens after a run and the engine is warm. It always starts easily, but is disarming to listen to for the first 2 seconds.

As far as HT leads go, I have retro fitted my 7mm solid core (rat chewed but only cosmetically) ones but have not bothered to progress any further. I also had a similar thought to you re Blue Streak leads and HEI. That system would generate enough oomph to negate any potential resistance issue, whereas my points & condenser set up may struggle. FYI, both sets of leads are barely used from brand new, just like every other goddam component on the car!

I'm sick of scratching my head and trying to figure out the endless idiosyncrasies this car has. I've had dozens of old carb & distributor cars that were faultless long distance cruisers that you could drive anywhere. I can't even go around the block with this thing stumbling & carrying on, even though almost EVERY SINGLE THING has been replaced. I'm over it. I'll take a massive hit but it's going.

I now have to endure the horror of opening a Facebook account and advertising the car there- it's the way to go these days I'm told. Grumble, grumble..

Peter, I understand that feeling & in many cases true. This is why so often you see a ground up rebuild of these old ones that basically is like building a new car! Not one component is left untouched or it’s replaced. The car is completely dismantled down to nothing. That’s an expensive & arduous task. And the ancillary items needed to do such a task is such a daunting task on it’s own, that it can stager the mind.
There are many things that can persevere a cars condition over long periods of time & prevent the issues you are seeing, but when you didn’t have that control from the beginning you have no idea what has or hasn’t been done to preserve that condition. Well, you have issues that can be troublesome. Most of what you are experiencing can be rectified without enormous cost, but it’s really about what you want to tolerate & how much you are willing to endure to get it. 
Best of luck with whatever path you take.

[Last Indian]

Peter, I did get sidetracked from what I was going to say. If you have the desire to pursue JustA little further you might be close. You say you have 12.7 volts at the battery while the car is running. That says that is all the regulator is allowing to be put out. That’s a problem! See if you have an adjustable regulator. It should be but, I can’t assume so. 12.7 volts at the battery means much less at every place else in the car! Even the entire ignition system, coil, distributor, spark plug, etc. that in turn impacts timing with respect to a good fired mixture or bad. So if you want to step through things one last time before you throw in the towel, I’ll give it a go with you.

[64 kiwi boni]

check what the voltage is at the postive terminal on the alternator mate !

[Fitzy]

The biggest issue here is that I was never prepared to undertake the complete teardown and resoration of an old car. The back story is that I always drove 25+ years old cars, so to me they were 'old' cars. The GP is almost 60 and although in pretty good shape, it deserves a total rebuild. When I bought the car, I had been out of the game for over 20 years and was well distanced from the rise in value of old cars. Once upon a time, you could buy an old clunker and with a few repairs, it'd trundle about quite nicely. Rather naively, I thought that was going to be the case with this one. I am now stuck with something that DESERVES proper attention but after plunging many tens of thousands into it, I am reluctant to keep pouring money into the black hole. So, I can either soldier on and spend an extra few thousand, or pull the pin. I haven't begun any advertising yet, so am obviously still considering what path to take.

When I bought it, I thought "great - carby & distributor - nice and simple." In retrospect, I think Kiwi Russell did the only sensible thing and retro fitted his with a modern fuel injected Chev & trans.

Anyway, I have another 5 days off so will either have another look at it or get out the petrol & matches.

The welding cable idea makes sense. I read that welding cable however isn't up to the rigours of vibration, but as far as conductivity goes, it's unparallelled.

The saga continues.

[Last Indian]

Well if you decide to try to see if you can adjust the voltage regulator. And you can, use your meter at the battery & see if you can get 14 or 15 volts. If that happens see what you get at the fuse box. If that goes to 12 or over, put your blue streak wires back on & see what that nets.

[64 kiwi boni]

5 hours ago, Fitzy said:

The biggest issue here is that I was never prepared to undertake the complete teardown and resoration of an old car. The back story is that I always drove 25+ years old cars, so to me they were 'old' cars. The GP is almost 60 and although in pretty good shape, it deserves a total rebuild. When I bought the car, I had been out of the game for over 20 years and was well distanced from the rise in value of old cars. Once upon a time, you could buy an old clunker and with a few repairs, it'd trundle about quite nicely. Rather naively, I thought that was going to be the case with this one. I am now stuck with something that DESERVES proper attention but after plunging many tens of thousands into it, I am reluctant to keep pouring money into the black hole. So, I can either soldier on and spend an extra few thousand, or pull the pin. I haven't begun any advertising yet, so am obviously still considering what path to take.

Do i need to jump on a plane and come and slap you !! wtf ! 

have you not learnt with all your years of experance that old cars like humans need constant attention !!

Mate , your 65 Pontiac is one of the simplest vehicals on the planet to fix ! i feel you need a petrolhead intevention !!!!! inspriation even ...

your car is so cool, you have done a fantastic job of every aspect of your refreash of her !! my god i for one am so proud of you ! and i bet there is at least ten more of us justA on this forum who admire your workmanship ! thats without what your mates think too ! 

Heres what i do when the shit hits the fan ...... step back . think about it for a while, there is certainly no pressure to do anything ( unless your cash strapped to buy that gto ) 

please dont go sending your car to some tec to fix a simple electrical issue !! save your money for beers and our trip to woodward !!!!

or ...

do i jump on a plane and come help you fix it ? i am bloody sure between beers and bbq, we could fix anything !!!  scotch fillet please , peppers, onion and a fried egg and salad ...oh sorry thats my dinner tonight !!! the boss is in melborne with the daughter to see some person called taylor swift or something ??? 

[Fitzy]

Yeah, whatever. Come on over. Once the beers come out, we'll just sit around poking fun at the car.

So today I thought I'd at least start it up because I haven't done anything since changing the leads. Took it around the block and it was faultless. Plenty of power, no carry on. I then whipped out the multimeter and checked a few things. Power to coil with ignition 'on' but engine not running is only 5V!!! It should be 12. With engine running it's 7.7V, which is about right due to resistance wire feeding the points. Battery voltage with engine off is 12.4. Engine running: 12.3. Yes, I know that's not enough. Tested fuse box with key to acc: 12.2. With switch 'on:' only 11.7.

So i'm now thinking there's an issue with the voltage coming out of the ignition switch which shits me because I've checked coil voltage in the past and it was 12V, so something has mysteriously changed. Also an obvious voltage drop between ignition 'on' and 'acc' position.

Whilst I was under the hood getting cranky, I pulled the 2 firewall plugs that feed through it into the footwell. What a mess! 60 years of crap and rust in there. The pics are the 'before' shots. If you're thinking "why doesn't he get rid of the surface rust on the booster & master cylinder," it's because the master will one day be changed to dual circuit and whilst the booster is out, I can clean it up and paint it then. Whilst they were apart, I checked for voltage going in and it was 11.46. I checked for resistance between outer terminals and inner ones - zero. Checked for resistance across all battery terminals and their various connections, the isolaters and all the earth straps and the main earth lead - all zero Ohms.

So...I THINK I'm going to run fresh decent gauge wires from the correct terminals on the back of the ignition switch. The car's original resistance wire seems to be working okay but I wonder if a fresh 12V to the coil via a ballast resistor might be the better way to go?

Of course if I had a Corolla, I could just jump in and go somewhere. 😁

Thanks to Kiwi and Gary for their help and words of inspiration. I shall sally forth and see what happens.

That reminds me: those useless Blue Streak leads are never going back on, so if someone wants them, let me know. You can have them for nothing - about what they're worth. I am NOT adjusting the reg. I'll take the car to a sparky and they can test the alternator and fiddle with the reg if they feel the need. I'm likely to make the car burst into flames if I touch either.

I forgot to mention: as car was idling I turned on headlights, then indicators then brake lights. The voltmeter swung abruptly into 10V territory each time I activated something. What's going on there?

And Kiwi suggested checking alternator output. I don't know how. There's a substantial wire coming out of the back and a smaller 2 prong connector which I assume goes to the idiot light and something else. How do I check output? 

[TWO LANE BLACK TOP]

Fitzy..

Have been watching your progress since the beginning...For what it's worth...I think that you have come too far to turn back now...I know that is easy for me say because I'm not the one actually dealing with it on a daily basis ...Believe me I can Identify with your Frustrations...That is just my 2 Cents...

With that being said...The most accurate way to check the alternator output...

With the engine running...Use your volt meter...( DC voltage setting)Take the positive lead and put it on the stud on the back of the alternator where the Heavy Guage (battery) Wire is...Then take the ground (earth) lead and ground it directly to the outer case of the alternator...Doing it like that isolates the alternator from the rest of the electrical system...And will give you an Accurate/true reading of what voltage the alternator itself is actually putting out...

The alternator should be putting out around 13.5 to 14.5 volts...If it is not within that range... that indicates that the voltage regulator needs to be adjusted... 

TLBT...

Edited February 15 by TWO LANE BLACK TOP

[64 kiwi boni]

mate ! i am with Two lane here ! test the big wire out of the back of your alternator! its the one thats making the power and its your staring point for alll your issues !

[Fitzy]

Love it! Too late to turn back now. Like being in a leaky rowboat where you can see the shore but the fish are still biting. Just a couple more fish and we'll get back to shore...maybe. Or, just sink and swim back with your life intact and your boat gone. Deep thoughts.

Thanks TwoLane. Everyone is trying to buoy my spirits and encourage me to keep going. I shall put in as much effort as I can, as I also want to keep the car but selling it would be the easy cowardly horrendously expensive way out.

Stay tuned for how my life is unravelling.

[Last Indian]

2 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Love it! Too late to turn back now. Like being in a leaky rowboat where you can see the shore but the fish are still biting. Just a couple more fish and we'll get back to shore...maybe. Or, just sink and swim back with your life intact and your boat gone. Deep thoughts.

Thanks TwoLane. Everyone is trying to buoy my spirits and encourage me to keep going. I shall put in as much effort as I can, as I also want to keep the car but selling it would be the easy cowardly horrendously expensive way out.

Stay tuned for how my life is unravelling.

Peter, I’m telling you you are close, at least with the issues you are currently dealing with. Two lane is saying what I have been indicating. You need a solid 13.5 to 15 volts out of the alternator. The car runs off the alternator not the battery, keep that in mind. From the 13.5 to 15 volts coming out of the alternator it all starts to drop from there because of resistance. 
Those plugs that you show are really going to knock the crap out of voltage. So it’s good that you can now clean them up & that will help reduce resistance, but as soon as you can see about getting the voltage adjusted & I personally would say if & when it’s adjusted push it towards the 14.5 or 15 volt side.

[64 kiwi boni]

3 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Thanks TwoLane. Everyone is trying to buoy my spirits and encourage me to keep going. I shall put in as much effort as I can, as I also want to keep the car but selling it would be the easy cowardly horrendously expensive way out.

pfft 

3 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Love it! Too late to turn back now. Like being in a leaky rowboat where you can see the shore but the fish are still biting. Just a couple more fish and we'll get back to shore...maybe. Or, just sink and swim back with your life intact and your boat gone. Deep thoughts.

so this guy calls his boat "wife" ... his mate question why he called it "Wife?" 

mate, its called wife because its guaranteed to never going down on me !

[Fitzy]

I hope you guys are happy - look what you made me do.

I was never happy with the electrics in that car. By my own admission, I rushed through it and simply plugged everything back in after I had refurbed the interior so it's my fault that it's come to this. The pics are embarrassing but let this be a warning to new players: do it once and do it right.

I saw an excellent YT clip on rewiring your car and whilst I mightn't go the whole hog, I will at the very least clean up the mess under the dash and add a bunch of relays AND a new firewall connection to negate those crappy 60 year old items.

As per the YT suggestion, I made a list of what needs power and divided it between front of firewall, cabin and anything beyond the back seat. Once you make a list, it's surprising how sparse it is. My car is without aircon, power windows & seats and I will simply bypass the heater, cigarette lighter and any other useless items to keep it as simple as possible.

I looked at regulator adjustment and there's a single spring loaded little screw in there. At the appropriate time, I will test alternator output and see what the reg is doing. This is a chance to get the fuel gauge calibrated correcly too and I can clean the faces of the speedo and instruments a lot better than I did the first time. I might even hook up the Frosty Memorial Tacho whilst I'm under the dash grunting & sweating.

Yes, I'm having a beer. Why? It's hot, sticky and the mossies & bugs have decided that my face is a good place to hover close to whilst my three arms are busy trying to get something apart that was assembled when the Ark set sail.

I genuinely appreciate everyone's input and you can be assured I am taking everything you say on board.