1964 bonneville rebuild

[64 kiwi boni]

Got my rebuilt power brake booster unit back today with a warning on it! and this is a trap for anyone doing a rebuild with a new master cylinder too!

 The rebuilder of my power brake booster unit tagged the unit to warn against using a master cylinder with the eyelet cur-clip, as it cuts into the front seal on the booster unit.

 here you can see, my new master cylinder has that exact clip, and you can see my old unit doesnt.... good little trap   

Edited February 17, 2021 by 64 kiwi boni

[Frosty]

That's a good catch on your rebuilder's part. You would think there would be a better design to prevent damaging the seal.

[Bonneville convertable64]

On 2/9/2021 at 3:37 PM, TWO LANE BLACK TOP said:

The Turbohydramatic 400 transmission is a very economically viable upgrade from the Super turbine 300 (Jetaway) trans and can be done easily without major modifications or specialty parts.....The TH-200-R4 is also another good upgrade if you want overdrive for cruising down the highway looking cool with the top down...

Hi Two Lane, I’m looking at other transmissions. It seems none of them have starter mounts on them. Do you know how to get around this? Does the 389 have starter mounting holes? Thanks, Del

On 2/14/2021 at 2:50 AM, 64 kiwi boni said:

And way better than the right angles leads that where on there, they where wrong as they clashed with the accelerator linkages 

I have rebuilt the 2 earth straps that go from the back of each head , cleaned them up , recrimped them and soldered them 

and tested there resistance too 

I noticed there are a few of theses installed. One of mine is broken. Are they all necessary? 

 

[JUSTA6]

45 minutes ago, Bonneville convertable64 said:

Hi Two Lane, I’m looking at other transmissions. It seems none of them have starter mounts on them. Do you know how to get around this? Does the 389 have starter mounting holes? Thanks, Del

I noticed there are a few of theses installed. One of mine is broken. Are they all necessary? 

 

64 motors N up have the starter on the block.  Before that your stuck with power glide. 

[Bonneville convertable64]

Thanks for the info. One local trans guy said there is a conversion kit for 700.00 to mount to transmission. He is looking into it. Not looking for major delays and headaches so may just rebuild what I have. The other option is to get a transmission engine combo from monster and deal with just motor mount adapter.

[64 kiwi boni]

4 hours ago, Bonneville convertable64 said:

I noticed there are a few of theses installed. One of mine is broken. Are they all necessary? 

i think Pontiac did this for a reason, maybe to cover all the bases if one did break there is a back up to earth the body, I note that my main earth strap went straight to the motor, but some one had also put a heavy cable to the inner fender AND the radiator support panel, which i think was over kill🙄and looked one heck of a mess coming off the battery terminal ! 

[Bonneville convertable64]

 

ok, thank you

[Fitzy]

16 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

i think Pontiac did this for a reason, maybe to cover all the bases if one did break there is a back up to earth the body, I note that my main earth strap went straight to the motor, but some one had also put a heavy cable to the inner fender AND the radiator support panel, which i think was over kill🙄and looked one heck of a mess coming off the battery terminal ! 

Hi Kiwi-my GP also has multiple earth straps. You'd think that 300kg of cast iron block would be earth enough, but I suppose if it & the trans are rubber mounted (which they are) then perhaps the additional straps take care of block to chassis earthing. Even so, one decent sized strap should have sufficed OR earth the battery direct to the chassis.

[64 kiwi boni]

On 2/19/2021 at 12:30 AM, Fitzy said:

Hi Kiwi-my GP also has multiple earth straps. You'd think that 300kg of cast iron block would be earth enough, but I suppose if it & the trans are rubber mounted (which they are) then perhaps the additional straps take care of block to chassis earthing. Even so, one decent sized strap should have sufficed OR earth the battery direct to the chassis.

Its a crack up Fitzy, way over earthed system. the big sucker is the starter motor, so best call is a good 10mm/3/8th earth cable crimped AND soldered,for the  motor,( sorry i am old skool) then after that with a stock Ponti-pretty girl, it would be the heater fan and head lights. they would be your next current draw to consider.And i think i will justA, run a direct earth to the head light rely then i will have no issues.

As i am going led head lights too.....

 watch this space... i ordered myself a road runner starter  and it should be here tomorrow!! 

will tell you all about it once i have it in hand,👍

Edited February 23, 2021 by 64 kiwi boni

[64 kiwi boni]

On 2/19/2021 at 12:30 AM, Fitzy said:

Hi Kiwi-my GP also has multiple earth straps. You'd think that 300kg of cast iron block would be earth enough, but I suppose if it & the trans are rubber mounted (which they are) then perhaps the additional straps take care of block to chassis earthing. Even so, one decent sized strap should have sufficed OR earth the battery direct to the chassis.

Hay Fitzy, something to watch out for too is like in 'wrongways" thread, these old cable may LOOK ok but you need to to test them.

maybe its worth is own thread about testing and ohms testing your power and earth cables ??? 

 whatA you guys think ? ....( doesn't seam we have an auto sparky on our forum ! )

[JUSTA6]

8 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Hay Fitzy, something to watch out for too is like in 'wrongways" thread, these old cable may LOOK ok but you need to to test them.

maybe its worth is own thread about testing and ohms testing your power and earth cables ??? 

 whatA you guys think ? ....( doesn't seam we have an auto sparky on our forum ! )

Wouldn't be me.  HATE electrical.......  Even Frosty... well his dash is still out,  NUFF said. 

[Frosty]

I got a new tester/power probe for Christmas. I will play with it come spring.

Still I hate troubleshooting electrical under the hood or the dash. Justa a pain to get to in the first place.

[64 kiwi boni]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

I got a new tester/power probe for Christmas. I will play with it come spring.

Still I hate troubleshooting electrical under the hood or the dash. Justa a pain to get to in the first place.

hahaha,, i know what you mean Frosty, but like with everything, once you have your head around it, the electrical system in these old cars is pretty basic, and what i have learnt about the 64 bonni is that its very much a generic gm wire loom, and layed out the same as chevy stuff. what is important is knowing how to apply your multi tester to the job your doing and understanding what it is showing you 👍

when i get to re fitting the battery wiring i will post some shots of how i test the cables around the engine bay👍

i always find it every important to have a good clear wiring diagram and justA read it for a bit and have a look around the cars loom and id the colors too the diagram.

[Fitzy]

8 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

17 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Its a crack up Fitzy, way over earthed system. the big sucker is the starter motor, so best call is a good 10mm/3/8th earth cable crimped AND soldered,for the  motor,( sorry i am old skool) then after that with a stock Ponti-pretty girl, it would be the heater fan and head lights. they would be your next current draw to consider.And i think i will justA, run a direct earth to the head light rely then i will have no issues.

As i am going led head lights too.....

 watch this space... i ordered myself a road runner starter  and it should be here tomorrow!! 

will tell you all about it once i have it in hand,👍

 

That's a good point re condition of earth straps-I shall keep it in mind.

I have never heard of a Road Runner starter, but you seem happy with your previous purchase. Someone advised me to be wary of hi torque starters because they can strip ring gear teeth due to their immense torque. If my ring gear teeth are anything like my own teeth, I'll be steering clear.

Now, as an aside: I have just come home from work and this was playing on my mind.

Here are the results of my own compression test. Mine seem higher than yours, so perhaps your Bonnie's 389 is a different spec to the one in my GP. The 65 GP 389 is a 4 barrel, twin exhaust 10.25 motor with 325 hp thru the TH400. Your Bonnie may be different.

I have taken a pic of engine specs from my 65 Chassis Manual (Faxon Literature if you don't already have one.)

[Last Indian]

20 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Hay Fitzy, something to watch out for too is like in 'wrongways" thread, these old cable may LOOK ok but you need to to test them.

maybe its worth is own thread about testing and ohms testing your power and earth cables ??? 

 whatA you guys think ? ....( doesn't seam we have an auto sparky on our forum ! )

Grounds for a car are usually the number 1 overlook problem with electrical troubles for cars! You should see the grounds on the Indian! I added 6 additional new grounds & changed all the high voltage/amperage grounds to 02 welding cable, because welding cable is fine strand copper, which carries electrical current much better  than standard large stranded electrical wire! Remember electricity runs in both directions and the ground side of car electrical systems is almost always the weaker side! As an example you can have 30 to 50, 18  gage positive wires to lights & heaters etc. as an example, but just one 16 or 14 gage wire as a ground for all of them!

[Andy H]

I like to use a good quality voltmeter for all electrical troubleshooting, learn how to do a voltage drop test both on the ground and the positive side, and check with a load, running the starter for those cables or all the accessories on for the alternator.

If ever in doubt make a new cable or replace, i also like the soft fine stranded welding cable, crimped and soldered also use shrink tubing with glue in it to seal the crimp/end with. i work on 24v systems with 500A alternator all the time and grounds are critical.

Remember that your body has rubber bushings between frame and body, clean the paint off the spot where you attach your ground cable and after you tighten it you can paint over it.

If you don't have a proper ground voltage will find a way maybe through your throttle cable or something else and potentially fry it.

 

[64 kiwi boni]

fitzy. here is what i did with my earth straps

1 hour ago, Andy H said:

I like to use a good quality voltmeter for all electrical troubleshooting, learn how to do a voltage drop test both on the ground and the positive side, and check with a load, running the starter for those cables or all the accessories on for the alternator.

If ever in doubt make a new cable or replace, i also like the soft fine stranded welding cable, crimped and soldered also use shrink tubing with glue in it to seal the crimp/end with. i work on 24v systems with 500A alternator all the time and grounds are critical.

Remember that your body has rubber bushings between frame and body, clean the paint off the spot where you attach your ground cable and after you tighten it you can paint over it.

If you don't have a proper ground voltage will find a way maybe through your throttle cable or something else and potentially fry it.

 

Andy, i am super keen on a thread about this , but truly mate i dont know that much about load testing,,,, and thats the big thing with current,,, in my job i test ohms on coils all day every day , but current load on a 12 volt system is its own field.

[Andy H]

1 minute ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

fitzy. here is what i did with my earth straps

Ohms are OK but not the same as a voltage drop test because the circuit is under load and is more likely to show up if there is a problem, even better is if the car is running when you do the test. If you test the starter wiring put one lead on the battery post not the terminal and the other one on the starter stud and have some one crank the car and see what you get, for the ground side you do the same but on the starter you have to attach to the case or hold it there, the nose piece is usually a good place.

I think 0,2V is ok but some say up to 0,6V but less is better. you can do this on a headlight or the alternator also ( when it is charging)

Their is probably quite a few you tube videos on this out there

[64 kiwi boni]

7 minutes ago, Andy H said:

Ohms are OK but not the same as a voltage drop test because the circuit is under load and is more likely to show up if there is a problem, even better is if the car is running when you do the test. If you test the starter wiring put one lead on the battery post not the terminal and the other one on the starter stud and have some one crank the car and see what you get, for the ground side you do the same but on the starter you have to attach to the case or hold it there, the nose piece is usually a good place.

I think 0,2V is ok but some say up to 0,6V but less is better. you can do this on a headlight or the alternator also ( when it is charging)

Their is probably quite a few you tube videos on this out there

i think this is worth its own thread here for all us  ponti owners

i have no idea how to do the test you said, and i know the load test is really the point at which the fat lady sings  or doesn't 

Edited February 24, 2021 by 64 kiwi boni

[Andy H]

Here is two videos i found about testing the starter and the alternator that i thought made sense.

The same goes for any circuit and for example the heater fan go through a lot of components before it gets it power, like the fuse box, bulkhead connector fan switch maybe the ignition switch or a relay so a wiring diagram is good, its like a road map, where is it coming from and where is it going and if you find a problem you have to work your way backwards to the battery,  test on both side of the fuse box or ignition switch or bulkhead connector, is the drop OK going in but not out,

Often guys a work come and ask me about electrical problems and my answer is very often, voltmeter and schematic, study the circuit and understand how it works and measure.

[Fitzy]

1 hour ago, Andy H said:

Here is two videos i found about testing the starter and the alternator that i thought made sense.

The same goes for any circuit and for example the heater fan go through a lot of components before it gets it power, like the fuse box, bulkhead connector fan switch maybe the ignition switch or a relay so a wiring diagram is good, its like a road map, where is it coming from and where is it going and if you find a problem you have to work your way backwards to the battery,  test on both side of the fuse box or ignition switch or bulkhead connector, is the drop OK going in but not out,

Often guys a work come and ask me about electrical problems and my answer is very often, voltmeter and schematic, study the circuit and understand how it works and measure.

17 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

On 2/23/2021 at 3:09 PM, 64 kiwi boni said:

Its a crack up Fitzy, way over earthed system. the big sucker is the starter motor, so best call is a good 10mm/3/8th earth cable crimped AND soldered,for the  motor,( sorry i am old skool) then after that with a stock Ponti-pretty girl, it would be the heater fan and head lights. they would be your next current draw to consider.And i think i will justA, run a direct earth to the head light rely then i will have no issues.

As i am going led head lights too.....

 watch this space... i ordered myself a road runner starter  and it should be here tomorrow!! 

will tell you all about it once i have it in hand,👍

 

That's a good point re condition of earth straps-I shall keep it in mind.

I have never heard of a Road Runner starter, but you seem happy with your previous purchase. Someone advised me to be wary of hi torque starters because they can strip ring gear teeth due to their immense torque. If my ring gear teeth are anything like my own teeth, I'll be steering clear.

Now, as an aside: I have just come home from work and this was playing on my mind.

Here are the results of my own compression test. Mine seem higher than yours, so perhaps your Bonnie's 389 is a different spec to the one in my GP. The 65 GP 389 is a 4 barrel, twin exhaust 10.25 motor with 325 hp thru the TH400. Your Bonnie may be different.

I have taken a pic of engine specs from my 65 Chassis Manual (Faxon Literature if you don't already have one.)

[Fitzy]

Wow - that's some great content from Andy. My head started to spin when the word 'load' was mentioned and I then opted to go into 'braindead mode.' It even rhymes...

I just wanted to add that my car came with the original 1965 dated Packard branded HT leads. I tested them for resistance and it was like 16k ohms, but still ran. I have since received my custom made 8mm solid core babies that'll carry voltage no matter what! Except for the one that the rat ate through. I'll never forgive that thing for that grave injustice. Anyway, true to form, the new leads show almost nil ohms.

Happy electrical nightmares!

[Last Indian]

Voltage drop is just one test, but there are so many test you can run the real question is which test for what problem! The voltage drop you show in the video for starting for example really is inconsequential in the big picture of starting. More relevant battery cranking voltage drop! Typical battery cranking voltage drop on starting with a good battery will be from 12.6, for a well charged battery, down to 10. 2 to 10.4 volts. Anything lower than that means there are issues with the system, either on the plus side or the negative side. Now when you get into the less power consuming components like gages, heater, lights, etc.. Those need checked differently, but again newer cars are a whole different animal in what you check and how! For example the Indian (2000 Grand Prix) has five 12 volt supply wires to the ignition switch! But these 12 volt wires that supply the switch once inside the switch is divided into 20 small finger contact tumblers that in turn distributes that power to smaller wires that supply 12 volts to things like the heater, radio, wipers, gages, etc! If you mistakenly leave an accessory on like the radio, heater, etc. this, through repeated occurrences causes the finger contacts to burn, like a set of points! When this happens you can go from 12 volts to 1 volt! So a voltage drop at a component that doesn’t work or doesn’t work properly does little good!

[64 kiwi boni]

3 hours ago, Last Indian said:

Voltage drop is just one test, but there are so many test you can run the real question is which test for what problem! The voltage drop you show in the video for starting for example really is inconsequential in the big picture of starting. More relevant battery cranking voltage drop! Typical battery cranking voltage drop on starting with a good battery will be from 12.6, for a well charged battery, down to 10. 2 to 10.4 volts. Anything lower than that means there are issues with the system, either on the plus side or the negative side. Now when you get into the less power consuming components like gages, heater, lights, etc.. Those need checked differently, but again newer cars are a whole different animal in what you check and how! For example the Indian (2000 Grand Prix) has five 12 volt supply wires to the ignition switch! But these 12 volt wires that supply the switch once inside the switch is divided into 20 small finger contact tumblers that in turn distributes that power to smaller wires that supply 12 volts to things like the heater, radio, wipers, gages, etc! If you mistakenly leave an accessory on like the radio, heater, etc. this, through repeated occurrences causes the finger contacts to burn, like a set of points! When this happens you can go from 12 volts to 1 volt! So a voltage drop at a component that doesn’t work or doesn’t work properly does little good!

Thank you Last Indian, this is great stuff. when i get time i will start a thread, because i am sure there are lots of Pontiac lovers that are really wanting to understand their electrical system, when it shits itself. ( justA bit under the hammer at the moment, wifes trying her best to look after her parents, so shes in another town 3 days a week, and my work load is through the roof... wait till you guys come out of this covid bs, everyone will want to renovate, buy shit, go places and basically blow shit loads of money on things they think is important to them.) 

where i am at is, i have a 57 year old electrical system that you really cant expect is no way near mint! and as i go through my rebuild, i justA want everything i touch to be reliable for many years to come,  

[Fitzy]

2 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

( justA bit under the hammer at the moment, wifes trying her best to look after her parents, so shes in another town 3 days a week, and my work load is through the roof... wait till you guys come out of this covid bs, everyone will want to renovate, buy shit, go places and basically blow shit loads of money on things they think is important to them.)  

See next entry, my mistake.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Fitzy
Too stupid to use computer.