This will NOT make you smile.

[Last Indian]

On 1/3/2023 at 5:49 PM, JUSTA6 said:

Had to put OZ down today.  He was outta comebacks.  He will be missed.

I just saw this Steve. Really sorry to hear this! 

[Old guy44]

The problem is that I have been doing just that. Yes the windows need to match but they also need to match the top. The main attaching point on the top mechanism is held on by three 3/8 bolts with huge washers. Those bolts go through three holes that are an inch square so the main pivot can move all over the place when loose. You try to adjust one thing and it throws everything else off. It moves up and down, fore and aft and also rotates which will move the whole top fore and aft. depending on orientation you can also move the front of the top side to side.

Before I did the windows I replaced the top weather-strips and they were slightly thicker than what came off so the drivers door did not want to open and close because the weather-strip was dragging on top of the window. the only way to raise the top rail was to loosen the three bolts. when I did that all hell broke loose and I have been fighting it since. There had to be a procedure on the assembly line, there is no way that it could have been haphazard on the line or they could not have made more than a few hundred drop tops. It had to be a procedure where you set something to a determined point and then adjusted all else in proper sequence. It was probably all detailed in the factory service manual but who has one? 

 

[64 kiwi boni]

1 hour ago, Old guy44 said:

The problem is that I have been doing just that. Yes the windows need to match but they also need to match the top. The main attaching point on the top mechanism is held on by three 3/8 bolts with huge washers. Those bolts go through three holes that are an inch square so the main pivot can move all over the place when loose. You try to adjust one thing and it throws everything else off. It moves up and down, fore and aft and also rotates which will move the whole top fore and aft. depending on orientation you can also move the front of the top side to side.

Before I did the windows I replaced the top weather-strips and they were slightly thicker than what came off so the drivers door did not want to open and close because the weather-strip was dragging on top of the window. the only way to raise the top rail was to loosen the three bolts. when I did that all hell broke loose and I have been fighting it since. There had to be a procedure on the assembly line, there is no way that it could have been haphazard on the line or they could not have made more than a few hundred drop tops. It had to be a procedure where you set something to a determined point and then adjusted all else in proper sequence. It was probably all detailed in the factory service manual but who has one? 

 

right now, i am thinking show us some picture Dwight ! 

certainly thinking you need to compair the old seals to what you are fitting because that is the only differance between, working and not work with the windows.....

 it may be a case of looking at what you have bought and maybe considering a differnt brand ?

i would certainly like to help so pictures would be great , considering i am on the other side of the planet !! gees if i was around the corner ! i would pop around and help you bag the ex wife like i do !!! hahaha 

[64 kiwi boni]

3 hours ago, Last Indian said:

I just saw this Steve. Really sorry to hear this! 

awww. i bet you have empty nest syndrome with oz not being around mate... it sucks !

You need a hobby ! i suggest cars!!! 

yeah ...it will take a long time to adjust, we still miss Harry, and i have told the boss, no more dogs for a while !!!

[JUSTA6]

Miss him a bunch. NO dogs for a long while at least.  Thankz mate!

[Old guy44]

20 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

i would certainly like to help so pictures would be great , considering i am on the other side of the planet !! gees if i was around the corner ! i would pop around and help you bag the ex wife like i do !!! hahaha

Pictures would not help as most of the adjustments are inside the window pockets. I was out there today ripping the interior out, door panels, inside trim panels in rear, access covers etc. I sat there for a long time looking at it and dawn finally broke over Germany. There is only one fixed point on this whole system, the a pillar/ windshield header. everything meets at this point so the adjustment begins there. The vent window frame has to meet the pillar correctly which depends on door adjustment as there is one dowel screw in the door that positions the vent window. the adjustment screws on that casting are not intended to adjust the vertical in out of the window that is door adjustment. The window level adjustment on the channel roller needs to level the window to seat properly in the front window channel and so on and so on. 

I am hoping that once I get the windows adjusted so they are level on the top and tight enough to get a good seal on the between window seal, door to quarter window that I can adjust the top to the windows. Again starting at the front as there are locating pins for the top to windshield header. Those brackets have a minimal amount of adjustment to center the front top bow on the windshield header. moving back from there it is the top bow over the side windows,

My only unknown is why the door windows have about a 1/4 inch bow on the top window frame and the top rail is dead flat.

I was doing this professionally between 59 and 79 and always did wonder about Pontiac engineers. The more I work on mine the more I am convinced that Pontiac engineering was smocking funny cigarettes. It was the 60's after all!!

No worry about location Kiwi we can still bag on the exes long distance. A little insight on mine, when she divorced me HER mother was on MY side.

[64 kiwi boni]

funny that about your ex... when mine left. her mum had past and she waiting till her inhertance came through and poof !!! she was gone! hahahaha

oh sorry i mean whossh ! as she took off on her broom stick

!

hahaha

hay Dwight ! come on show us some pictures !!!!

not of the ex !!!!

 the doors and windows your working on !! 

Edited January 21, 2023 by 64 kiwi boni

[Old guy44]

If I had a picture of her I would glue it inside my toilet. I know about broomsticks

[64 kiwi boni]

5 minutes ago, Old guy44 said:

If I had a picture of her I would glue it inside my toilet. I know about broomsticks

you mean in the rim of the bowl or justA on the wall !!

[Fitzy]

Ah yes, the 'ex' horror stories. I have never been married (about the only smart thing I ever did!) but I have had the pleasure of living with quite a few girlfriends. I am yet to meet one who you could describe as 'calm & good natured.' 'Well balanced.' 'Has her head screwed on right.' 'No baggage.' Boy  - good luck with that last one. I've endured more female baggage than an airport carousel.

[64 kiwi boni]

 

Aww Does ya love me fitzy 

Edited January 21, 2023 by 64 kiwi boni

[Frosty]

As friend once said to me FItzy mate and I will share with you, the difference between you and I.....you have a life and I have a wife!

[Ringo64]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

As friend once said to me FItzy mate and I will share with you, the difference between you and I.....you have a life and I have a wife!

Still planning the wedding and this isn’t more true… 😂

[Old guy44]

Kiwi,

Back to the Pontiac weather-stripping. FINALLY figured it out. Started at the left a pillar and adjusted the vent window to the pillar, had to move the bottom of the door in a bit to get the top of the window out slightly. adjusted the window to the vent window frame. Had do move the top of the frame back to get a tighter fit at the front of the window. adjusted the quarter window to the door window and put the top up. Found that the quarter window needed to fit the top and the window so spent the next hour walking that tightrope. Also figured out how to properly adjust the top. Put the top up and latched it then moved the top switch back and forth until the motor was spinning freely, no pressure in the cylinders up or down. When I loosened the pivot screws the pivot casting moved to the neutral position all by itself. To get the top rail off of the top of the door window I loosened up the pivot screws again and pushed up as hard as I could on the top rail before tightening and got enough clearance at the top of the door window. Repeated everything on the right and by gosh it was mostly OK. 

I suspect you are correct on using the right supplier because when I got everything fitting correctly I had to shim the weather-stripping at the top of the A pillar and build up the front of the first top weather-strip with black silicone paste because everything was just a little short. It is all together, no gaps anywhere, and I have cut the wind noise by about 80% at speed. 

Only problem is that the window felts that go on the body at the base of the windows, the kit they sent me is for a hardtop not a convertible. The door felts fit and work fine but the rear are completely wrong. It had to get in the one last shot! up side is that they screw in and I believe I can put them in without removing the window.

[64 kiwi boni]

3 hours ago, Old guy44 said:

Kiwi,

Back to the Pontiac weather-stripping. FINALLY figured it out. Started at the left a pillar and adjusted the vent window to the pillar, had to move the bottom of the door in a bit to get the top of the window out slightly. adjusted the window to the vent window frame. Had do move the top of the frame back to get a tighter fit at the front of the window. adjusted the quarter window to the door window and put the top up. Found that the quarter window needed to fit the top and the window so spent the next hour walking that tightrope. Also figured out how to properly adjust the top. Put the top up and latched it then moved the top switch back and forth until the motor was spinning freely, no pressure in the cylinders up or down. When I loosened the pivot screws the pivot casting moved to the neutral position all by itself. To get the top rail off of the top of the door window I loosened up the pivot screws again and pushed up as hard as I could on the top rail before tightening and got enough clearance at the top of the door window. Repeated everything on the right and by gosh it was mostly OK. 

I suspect you are correct on using the right supplier because when I got everything fitting correctly I had to shim the weather-stripping at the top of the A pillar and build up the front of the first top weather-strip with black silicone paste because everything was just a little short. It is all together, no gaps anywhere, and I have cut the wind noise by about 80% at speed. 

Only problem is that the window felts that go on the body at the base of the windows, the kit they sent me is for a hardtop not a convertible. The door felts fit and work fine but the rear are completely wrong. It had to get in the one last shot! up side is that they screw in and I believe I can put them in without removing the window.

ah well done mate !!!👍

i am impressed with how you can explain your process to get it all to align !

and yes no after market part will ever fit porperly !!!

i remember my first set of door rubbers for a 56 chev.... fitted them .... went to close the doors!!! not one would close !!

major fail !! and i had glued them to my fresh paint too !! ggrrs 

having said that,, i bought the steele rubbers for around the doors and roof channel on the 64 boni and man!!! perfect, soft, fit well, easy to install !!! 

 i was soo impresssed i emailed them and thank them for the brilliant product! and they replied with thanks 

Edited January 24, 2023 by 64 kiwi boni

[64 kiwi boni]

justA had to put an old picture so i could apreciate what a cool car you have Dwight !

[64 kiwi boni]

Dwight .

tell me about how your ls engine and the 6l80 trans fitted in your 63 ? 
it’s a bloody big transmission ! 
how was it in the factory tunnel?

and what did you do for a speedo connection since it’s a hall sensor signal 

not a real speedo drive ?

[Old guy44]

Looking at the engine bay in the Indian you would think that almost anything would fit. NOT SO! It was the hardest install I ever did. Of course all the other installs I had at my disposal my fathers auto repair and machine shop at my disposal. It took a lot of cutting and welding on both the body and frame to get it in. The trans hump was raised about 2-3 inches, more in the rear than in the front. the speedo was fixed by using a box made for the purpose. Don't remember where I got it, If I dig through my paperwork I can probably find it but it is a common item with all the ls installations being done.

If you want to see the install there is a thread in the how to section on L83 and 6L80 in a 1963 Catalina. Pretty detailed but there is more.

If you are asking because you want to duplicate it talk to me first so I can tell you how to stay out of trouble. also recommendations on wiring, camshaft, steering pump and a few other issues. It was a difficult install but worth every minute. Low gear on the trans is so low it works great with the 2.63? axle ratio and in 6th with the converter locked it is cruising at 80 MPH around 1750 RPM. Hands down the nicest driving  build I ever did

[64 kiwi boni]

Ah I will go have a read 

and yes 

I intend doing something similar 

And tossing up weather to go 4L60 or 6L80 

I see the size difference  and do I need as strong as trans as the 6l80 and have to chop the floor 

[Old guy44]

If you are replacing a slim jim (roto hydramatic) you most likely will need to do surgery on the hump with either. as far as the trans choice, in my opinion the drive ability with the six speed will be far nicer. I have the 4L in my truck and the gear spread in the 6L is so much nicer for drive ability. 

I purchased a small mig welder from Harbor freight that will run .025 and .030 wire that makes welding sheet metal much easier. I have a Lincoln DC 250 power source that will stick and mig but it is a pain to roll around and with a 15 foot cable and gun it is a little sketchy running thinner than .035 wire. Over the years I have probably run 300 pounds of .035 wire through it doing wrought iron fencing and railings and occasionally heaver stuff up to 1/4 inch But sheet metal work was tough, had to short arc all around the weld. When I got the smaller machine I was shocked at how much less heat  the .025 and .030 make doing sheet metal, you can run short beads and it goes much faster. I welded up the trans hump in about 2 hrs, slopped some body seam sealer top and bottom, done.

I am running regular gas with a Comp cam getting 17-18 MPG in town and can still scare the hell out of the occasional mustang with the LT

[64 kiwi boni]

3 hours ago, Old guy44 said:

If you are replacing a slim jim (roto hydramatic) you most likely will need to do surgery on the hump with either. as far as the trans choice, in my opinion the drive ability with the six speed will be far nicer. I have the 4L in my truck and the gear spread in the 6L is so much nicer for drive ability. 

aww now thats good to know !!!

3 hours ago, Old guy44 said:

purchased a small mig welder from Harbor freight that will run .025 and .030 wire that makes welding sheet metal much easier. I have a Lincoln DC 250 power source that will stick and mig but it is a pain to roll around and with a 15 foot cable and gun it is a little sketchy running thinner than .035 wire. Over the years I have probably run 300 pounds of .035 wire through it doing wrought iron fencing and railings and occasionally heaver stuff up to 1/4 inch But sheet metal work was tough, had to short arc all around the weld. When I got the smaller machine I was shocked at how much less heat  the .025 and .030 make doing sheet metal, you can run short beads and it goes much faster. I welded up the trans hump in about 2 hrs, slopped some body seam sealer top and bottom, done.

yes i have a mig welder and its great for metal you dont want to "work" like trans tunnels.. i have a tig too, and i am still learning to drive it... i am a oxy /acte welder boy.. and tig is very much like fusion welding but wayyyy smaller flame/heat !

 

Sorry mate, it only justA knock off time here in nz. i will read your thread this evening and i am going to ask you some questions.

i already have a L98 and 6L80e out of a late model holden thats going into the 57 new frame. but i want another set for another project thats coming, and its great to get feed back about how these late model transmissions work.... and if they are justified in installing them in our old girls..

Right now its beer oclock !! 

[Old guy44]

I envy you, I used up my lifetime supply of beer by my 25th birthday.

[64 kiwi boni]

Dwight 

I had another read of your 63 Ls installation ..

question why did you leave your air con pump and alternator down low in the front of the motor . Was it because of room above and hood clearance ? 

[Old guy44]

LT installation. Alternator is still on the top. I had to add a PS pump because there is no application with an LT that does not also have electric steering. The only place for a steering pump was to eliminate the vacuum pump and install a PS pump in place of it. There was really no way to put the AC compressor on the top because it uses a 3/4 belt with a separate pulley just for the AC. Hood clearance is an issue, I had to dent the intake tube to clear the hood and the oil pan only has about a half inch clearance from the crossmember. 

I spent a lot of time working on getting the motor set up to go in and everything is where it is because there was no other place for it to fit. With all my years of steel fabrication it was easier for me to make the car fit the motor than the other way around. All the surgery to the crossmember is not an issue. While those crossmembers are noted for sagging I took a piece of 3/16 X 3 strap and welded it on the bottom of the crossmember right at the front edge to buttress it but with the mounts now at the top edge of the crossmember there is no engine load on the crossmember so the strap was probably overkill.

I believe that you stated you were using an LS out of a passenger car. The LS and LT are slightly different motors, I do not know if that difference applies to size or? I do know that depending on application the water pump moves from side to side. My engine came out of a truck so the pump is on the left side. I can't say how much room would open up with a right hand mounted water pump or what you could stuff in the hole. 

I suspect that there are a lot more choices for accessory locations available for the LS because they used it in a lot of different vehicles. All I can say is that everything needs to fit under the hood and this was my determining factor.

[64 kiwi boni]

The boss made me move my “ heaps of shit “ off the lawn in preparation of the up and coming wedding of our daughter here at home ! 

I simple don’t see one pos in this picture ! 
do you guys ?????