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So i am a member of the new zealand hot rod association( and past executive director) and i get up dates from the low volume  vehicle association, responsible for all our modified cars.

 Here is a very interesting read and i would like your thoughts on what they are up to... we are at the bottom of our world and clearly it is an issue that is not going away.  

lvvta.pdf

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Wow - the thin end of the wedge. Importantly, it won't affect our existing vehicles (yet) but I'm wondering who is going to bother to import a later model econo car? Surely, it's classic cars that are the target area for most enthusiasts, and it'll be those prospective owners who will be taxed for pursuing their interest. The only bright side is that any existing classic cars in NZ may experience a spike in value. Unfortunately, the report correctly stated that this was inevitable and that NZ (and by association, it'll eventually include Australia) has been lagging behind what the rest of the world is doing, but we're used to that.

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12 minutes ago, Old guy44 said:

The real problem is that an increasing number of politicians world wide believe that government is the answer. The world was a lot better off when the prevailing wisdom was that government is the problem. I believe it was Will Rodgers, but I might be mistaken, who stated diapers and politicians should be changed often and for the same reason.

Interesting that you say that Dwight, i believe its not the politicians, but the people behind them that we DONT vote for that are the real issue, i certainly know that on a local government level. the buggers who are the puppeteers to the politicians:unsure:

way too deep anyway. :bacon: 

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On 3/8/2021 at 2:49 AM, 64 kiwi boni said:

Interesting that you say that Dwight, i believe its not the politicians, but the people behind them that we DONT vote for that are the real issue, i certainly know that on a local government level. the buggers who are the puppeteers to the politicians:unsure:

way too deep anyway. :bacon: 

We need to figure out who's got their hand up Bidens A... N workin his mouth.

THE PINEHURST PRESS NEWS & VIEWS

Interesting Take on Electric Cars


As an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology.  However, I have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure.                                                   Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.  A friend sent me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look at this short article.


IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES.  THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!  Now where will money come from for roads if not the gas tax?

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car: Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed.  All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each.  For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system!  This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS…!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine."  Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
 
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.  The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.  $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.  Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg.  $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
 

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!

 

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So to pile on to what I've been saying for awhile now about electric vehicles, this article has touched on.

1. Who is going to bear the costs associated with improving the electric grids across the country? Clearly your local power companies - but it will come back to you in the form of rate hikes or special taxes. Plus it will take time for the utility companies to expand the grid - this is NOT an overnight endeavor.

2. Many act like we will are going to flip the proverbial switch and become an all electric society seemingly over night. Great idea. I call BS. The idea of road taxes and maintain our existing infrastructure was mentioned. Those taxes will now have to be switched from gasoline to kw/kwh. Your power rates will further increase because of this.

3. The cost of shipping good across country will increase significantly, especially if it will now take longer to get across country due to extensive recharge times of exhausted battery cells. So the price of goods and services will probably increase too.

4. Interstate highway rest areas and fuel centers will give way to re-charging stations and hotels and will expand significantly to accommodate large numbers of interstate travelers stuck needing to re-charge their vehicles for 8+ hours. There will be more stranded motorists on the highways most likely.

5. Gasoline / fossil fuel is not 100% eliminated - airplane and international cargo shipping will continue to use fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. No one has yet produced an electric engine for a passenger or cargo ship that can go transatlantic yet nor is there a viable all-electric jet engine available for passenger or air freight.

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3 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.  $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.  Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg.  $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

This is very interesting, as with nz we pay $8.31 ish for a gallon of petrol and that still equates to $0.25 per mile based on the above numbers :o

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

5. Gasoline / fossil fuel is not 100% eliminated - airplane and international cargo shipping will continue to use fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. No one has yet produced an electric engine for a passenger or cargo ship that can go transatlantic yet nor is there a viable all-electric jet engine available for passenger or air freight.

And Frosty, no way are they going to find replacements for a lot of small petrol engines, like concrete cutting saws, chain saws, portable generators etc, we dont all work next too a point outlet!

Yesterday we had a power cut that lasted from 5am till 4 pm, if we had only electric cars and needed a charge, we simply would not be able to use it for a whole day, too bad if thats your work vehicle that you need to produce your income!  

Edited by 64 kiwi boni
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21 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

This is very interesting, as with nz we pay $8.31 ish for a gallon of petrol and that still equates to $0.25 per mile based on the above numbers :o

And Frosty, no way are they going to find replacements for a lot of small petrol engines, like concrete cutting saws, chain saws, portable generators etc, we dont all work next too a point outlet!

Yesterday we had a power cut that lasted from 5am till 4 pm, if we had only electric cars and needed a charge, we simply would not be able to use it for a whole day, too bad if thats your work vehicle that you need to produce your income!  

I agree with you in spirit Kiwi. However, there are electrical/battery driven lawn mowers, snowblowers, leaf blowers, cutting saws, etc. You can argue how effective they are on difficult jobs, but they do exist. I will concede that an electrical portable generator makes no sense at this time. However, batttery backups do exist. to sustain a house for a brief period of time. I will also say they are expensive.

I think your point about a power outage crippling a wider range of things besides the home are well taken too. Great observation.

20 hours ago, Old guy44 said:

Frosty,

You need to change bullet point 1 to Never underestimate the power of governmental stupidity.

Just A6,

In my lifetime I have seen government make countless decisions based upon unfounded ideas that are lately coming from uninformed environmentalists. All of this stupidity to switch to electricity comes from the unfounded idea that we are changing the worlds climate with pollution. My early school years were i the 40's and 50's. There were days that we were not allowed on the playground because the pollution was so bad that it would make your lungs burn and so thick that you could not see all the way across the playground. Surely if pollution were responsible for climate change it would have happened then. Refrigerants are supposedly responsible for ozone depletion but anyone that has ever worked on any refrigeration system knows that refrigerants are heavier than air. So how is a substance that is heaver than air getting up to the top of the atmosphere? 

It is my considered opinion that it is all driven by dollars. Business dollars that are driving politicians to make stupid decisions and give them the power that they want. My guess is that you could not find 1 in 10 politicians that are not driven by a power trip. And unfortunately they all believe that they know what we need better than we do. They are all knowing and we are children. The reality is if anyone cares to look that private enterprise is far better at curing problems than government will ever be. If anyone wants to argue about that just look at space X. They are under contract to NASA to put things in space because they can do it cheaper and more efficiently. How many countries are capable of putting something in space and who alone is capable of retrieving a booster and putting it on the pad it took off from? 

With regard to your post on electric cars how long is it going to take the general public to realize all the drawbacks of driving electric and start buying a used gas driven car? The next big business opportunity will be to buy a wrecking yard and start rebuilding all the wrecks while parts are still available. I will be driving my '63 Pontiac and my wife will probably still be driving her Lexus hybrid.

The idea of the electric infrastructure being overloaded is already happening without electric cars. Tract house developments that were built in the 40's and 50's when A/C was not even considered are now experiencing brown outs on hot days because A/C has been added to most of the houses. So likewise when everyone is plugging in their car it obviously will overload even the newest neighborhood.

Decisions made without the slightest hint of reality. Government at its best.

Old guy 44 - I think the proper quite is "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity!" - government stupidity is just a subset of human stupidity. It's right next to "Hold ma' beer - watch this!" or "Guns are evil and must be banned" forms of stupidity.

Once again the government is trying to control consumer demand by legislating it in some fashion. Something they've been terrible and wrong at for decades.

I truly believe a politician believes he knows how to spend my money more wisely than I do (to which I say BS). He just makes sure he has as little personal financial skin in the game as possible at the same time.

Government is like meetings - where the minutes are kept and the hours are lost. The lack of common sense is deafening. No one wants to speak against the government "machine" for fear of being put down and belittled in the court of public opinion. We have the right to free speech, just no one willing to listen to the "nay sayers" because the "experts" have "spoken" and "thus it will be"!

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On 3/7/2021 at 3:16 AM, 64 kiwi boni said:

What gets me about this new government hair brain idea, is how the hell is charging a new tax on imported  cars is going to reduce co2 levels? its justA tax, the government will get money and then what? do yeah send that money off to the co2 buster team who jump in there old caddy ambo and go zap some nasty c02 ghosts!!! hell no. they stick the money in the wtf fund and claim they are doing the right thing for the environment!

Here is a crazy idea.... get all those cleaver scientists we have, you know the ones that split the atom... and invent a filter to remove the co2 from exhausts. 

Better still justA come up with a fuel additive that converts co2 into some thing else, like, a solid liquid,  that then can be removed and be refined into paper towels for Politian's to use to clean up their dribble!.

That is my soap box speech for the week :picard:

Tune in next week when i bang on about how mr potatoe head has had a nervous break down over the latest media coverage and mrs potatoe head is fuming after all the  Dr Seuss books are removed from the local library :rofl:

Kiwi, sorry my friend, but it’s just a pretense to take more money from the masses using a evil excuse! That when looked at by a reasonable mind, leaves you asking that very question; how does that help CO2? Oh! It doesn’t!

 In a nut shell! We are all screwed! We are at their mercy with few options! Every last ounce of it is a lie! Worst yet they know it’s a lie since they are behind it, that I know for a fact! There are two major reasons! One, follow the money and two I can’t really say or most if not all will think I’m nuts! So let’s just follow the money. I said some of this in JustA’s “And so it begins-thanks Biden” 1000 years ago the Vikings where raising sheep & cattle on Greenland, you know where today the glaciers are melting! So we had no glaciers of any real relevance on Greenland a 1000 years ago! But guess what? 300 years later they abandoned those farms because of increasing sustained cold weather! Fact, look it up!

 

Our current CO2 levels are at about 410ppm compared to about 150 years ago they were at the upper 200ppm mark. But! And it’s a big one! Over the past 480 million years, of which through core samples at the Antarctic and fossils from around the world we know the those levels ran between 7000ppm down to 3000ppm, because CO2 is sequestered, with an average global temperature of 72 Fahrenheit irrelevant of the CO2 level! Which is higher than our current global temperature, but the point is the temperature remained steady regardless of CO2 levels! So we know that CO2 plays no role in temperature change! We also know that what does impact the temperature pattern is nothing we can change! Since they have to do with earths orbit patterns, magnetic pole strength, sun cycles, solar winds and a lot of other mind numbing reasons!

 

Electric cars! If it wasn’t so stupid scary it would be funny! There is more pollutants in making an electric car from cradle to grave than there ever was at any point in time of making a combustion engine car! Follow the money! It actually cost about a third of the cost to manufacture an electric motor as opposed to a combustion engine! The rest of the car, well it’s a car! Sheet metal, plastic, glass, upholstery, etc. so that’s a wash! Now the battery! Here’s where the money gets really interesting as well as obscure! Guess who owns 90% of all the lithium mines in the world! Here’s a clue they’re just a little northeast of you Kiwi! Now throw in the electric company’s who will now control not just the price of electric, but how much you use! You will do what they say and when they say! Don’t believe it? They are already putting automatic readers on electric meters that can also be used to shut your electric off! Fact! Solar panels! What a joke, but not funny! There are more caustic chemicals used to make enough solar panels to produce a single megawatt than a car manufacturers entire product line emits for an entire decade and than some! We know for a fact that petroleum has been used for at least 6000 years! We have been burning wood for that long as well! Yet you hear no one bitch about burning wood! Hmmm, I wonder why? Wood release by far more CO2 per btu than oil, but it also produces or releases dioxins in far greater quantities than any other substance! Guess what? Dioxins are second in toxicity right after nuclear waste! Fact! It take between.0006 to .045 mg of dioxin to be fatal, depending on body weight. A kilogram of hardwood with no bark can produce.0004 mg of dioxins! So why are we not restricting wood fires? Might be because they can’t make any real money off that, and they sure don’t care about your health! 

No doubt we could go on for a long time, but as I said! We’re just plain screwed!!
 

Did I ever happen to mention that in Revelations 6:6 it says “do not harm the oil or wine”! Now anyone can argue what they will, but you can make fuel out of just about any oil, period! Food for thought!

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Frosty,

I absolutely acquis to your superior logic. Government stupidity is a subset of human stupidity Unfortunately it seems to be the biggest and most dangerous of all the subsets.

Re: electric/ co2's, back near the beginning of this discussion I stated that electric cars are not pollution free. They just move the pollution from the car to whatever is producing the electricity. If your power is being supplied 100%  by hydroelectric, wind or solar then yes your electric car is pollution free. If however you are charging your battery off an old coal fired electric generating plant you might as well be driving a Hummer. Obviously the two extremes but the fact is that whatever is generating your electricity is where the pollution is being created. Since almost none of the population is being supplied 100% by one or more of the pollution free means of generating electricity electric cars DO PRODUCE EMISSIONS. The idiot politicians in California have decreed that by 2035? no piston driven vehicles can be sold in the state. The current electric grid has to rotate blackouts every summer when A/C usage is at its peak so what happens when even 10% of the population is charging the battery in their electric on that grid. They won't let you buy anything but an electric but I have seen no effort to upgrade the system to meet the demand that they have to know is coming, and if they started today they would not have the necessary means of generating let alone transporting enough electrons to meet the projected demand. 

Lets look at that in realistic terms. California has a population of 40,000,000. For talking purposes lets say that 25% of the population has a car and a license. That is 10,000,000 people that drive. The charger on an electric car requires a 75 amp circuit which is about 3X the circuit size on a central A/C. So 3X 10.000.000 equals another 30,000,000 A/C units on a grid that is already overloaded. This is going to work how? As Last Indian so eloquently put it WE ARE SCREWED

Human stupidity at its best. legislate demands without the slightest thought of the consequences. When is the average voter going to wake up and stop electing every schmuck that promises the next hand out?

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10 hours ago, Last Indian said:

Kiwi, sorry my friend, but it’s just a pretense to take more money from the masses using a evil excuse! That when looked at by a reasonable mind, leaves you asking that very question; how does that help CO2? Oh! It doesn’t!

My very first point Last Indian!!! and its the biggest, its allll about money and most likely a post covid bounce back to help every countries economy 

it certainly isnt about the co2 levels as you pointed out.

10 hours ago, Last Indian said:

Here’s where the money gets really interesting as well as obscure! Guess who owns 90% of all the lithium mines in the world! Here’s a clue they’re just a little northeast of you Kiwi!

So if your correct, Fitzy has all the lithium  !!! haha. bugger me!

jokes aside, your dead right this is bs, and we are certainly getting screwed.

no matter who we vote for, we are still going to get this nonsense, i for one will be not buying a electric car, i will not be putting solar panels on my roof, i will not be buying a electric tooth brush. :rofl:

what i will do for the environment is , i will recycle, i will reuse, and i will rebuild old cars, and not buy a new one !!!:driving:

LONG LIVE THE PONTIACS :dancingpontiac:

STICK THAT IN YA PIPE AND SMOKE IT :rofl:

 

Edited by 64 kiwi boni
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2 hours ago, Old guy44 said:

The idiot politicians in California have decreed that by 2035? no piston driven vehicles can be sold in the state.

Dwight, good luck to California, i wish them good luck with their dream>>>>>> :picard:

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Not dream, nightmare.

There is a movement afoot to recall our moron governor. If successful we can only hope that we get someone in there that has more than 12 functioning brain cells. Not likely with all the idiot voters we have on the far left coast but we can hope.

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Interesting video about why internal combustion engine vehicles will be around longer than most people think. Some good facts here. He has some other videos that I have not watched yet. Once I get some time and I think that they add to our argument, I will post them here. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Last Indian said:

No, a lot farther north & more east (China) surprise! And of this surprise; keep a watch closely for the rise of a German/China alliance that will not bode well for the rest of us!

i completely agree, its a very interesting world we live in at the moment, and i would not be surprised if we see some major shifts in the next few years around china and its very aggressive intervention in our south pacific area, 

Basically, we are hearing of china bank rolling all sorts of projects in the islands  and effectively, sucking up to all the small island nations too the point where china will own them ! 

Up to a few year ago, i personally had no idea how deep our little country was in deep with china. 

there was a major shift in trade and all of a sudden, we have all our export eggs in the china basket!!! my first thought was WHAT THE F !

but now its out in the open ( joe bloggs like me now know) its turning to custard , china isnt playing ball, and has slowed down all exports to us... i bet its intentional.

i think its going to be a really hard road ahead, as not only has my country relied on all of the product coming from china now but your in the same boat.

And they know it.   

I  Think its not nice to be put in this situation, and  it needs to be worked out. i know its old school, but i learnt very early in my self employed life not to put all your eggs in one basket, or you do  get burnt.

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You know what goes through my mind? When I see footage of a volcano spewing millions of tons of assorted crap into the atmosphere, or just one of Australia's famous bushfires that are huge, powerful, dangerous and produce countless tons of CO2 amongst ash, debris, furry animal carcasses, etc, that's a LOT of CO2 being produced, but they are natural occurrences and I'm sure Mother Nature has the means to deal with it.

I am loving the depth of discussion on the topic that Kiwi started re the controlled sale of naughty cars and it's reassuring proof that there are plenty of people out there who are not buying what the politicians are feeding us. In saying all that, EVs are on the way and they will dominate in years to come. As far as I'm concerned, it's mass transit that needs to be electric, affordable, safe & reliable. Let the masses keep a car in the garage to enjoy on the weekends. You know, the whole concept of 'owning a car' is going to be outdated in years to come. You will order a ride in an autonomous electric bubble that will take you from doorstep to destination whilst you sit in the back and play Candy Crush on your way to work. Well, YOU will. I'll be retired!

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Wow! Now that’s an obscure reference! Of course I remember Chucky Heston’s famous line. I like it!:cheers:

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What do you do with a 25 year old decommissioned Wind Turbine..?

The only question I ask is, “was their cost recovered from what they saved”?

 

Wait until we have to dispose of the millions of toxic batteries from those future electric cars. 

Unintended consequences of a poorly thought-out idea.

 Welcome To the wind Turbine Graveyard

Here is your "clean energy!"

So much for clean power; note the size of the bulldozer burying the blades in comparison to the blades. "Welcome to the wind turbine graveyard.  It stretches a hundred meters {328 feet} from a bend in the North Platte River in Casper, Wyoming. 

California, Colorado, Kansas, and many other states are doing the same thing, the fiberglass blades will never deteriorate {not biodegradable}.

Between last September and this March, it will become the final resting place for 1,000 fiberglass turbine blades.  

These blades, which have reached the end of their 25-year working lives, come from three wind farms in the north-western US state.  Each will be cut into three, then the pieces will be stacked and buried. 

Turbines from the first great 1990s wave of wind power are reaching the end of their life expectancy today.  About two GigaWatts worth of turbines will be refitted in 2019 and 2020.  And disposing of them in an environmentally-friendly way is a growing problem. This cost taxpayers $200,000 or more per unit, or 200 million total for the 1000 blades, to have them transported and decommissioned.

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That is totally disgusting mate !!! a major f-ck up, and we have thousands of these in nz !!  

 It really worries me about these lithium batteries ! they go off like magnesium !

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