Fitzy's GP is back!

[64 kiwi boni]

2 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Got it - thanks Kiwi.

JustA wished I had  done this up grade before you mate ! And it would be a walk in the park for you ! 

[Fitzy]

No problem - I'm very glad of the information. I hope your booster & mine are the same! Mine appears to be the Delco-Moraine one. Our master cylinders look identical so I'm guessing yours is also a DM.

[64 kiwi boni]

oh one more not ! make sure your master cylinder plunger does not have the c clip type with ears !

 i was warned by the company who rebuilt my booster that these will cut the seal in the front of the booster !

[Fitzy]

Yes, I do remember you saying that. I haven't checked because I assumed that the MC you & I now both have is correct in that regard.

On another note, I'm going to check the alternator & regulator outputs tomorrow - apparently using a multimeter on the battery terminals and deciphering the results is the way to go. Ames sells a stock looking totally electronic modern regulator. I'm sure there are others - does anyone have experience with converting to a modern regulator? I thought all modern alternators were self regulating. Because the car's history is unknown, who knows how old my alternator is. It's the last thing to be replaced in the engine bay so I might as well just go for replacement components and then it's done for the next 20 years.

[64 kiwi boni]

Going to a internally regulated alternator is  a good choice mate 👍

or as most would call them a one wire alternator . 
and deleting the external regulator off the fire wall makes for a cleaner engine bay 

To wire it in is very easy too … one 6mm wire from the alternator to your battery 

and a tell tail wire. Back to your alt light on the dash . 
this light on the dash must have a feed from the ignition as it acts as a stimulator circuit to the diode pack in your new alternator . 

[Fitzy]

My car has an ammeter and not an idiot light...considering who owns the car, it probably needs several idiot lights! Do you know if I can hook up an internally regulated alternator to an ammeter? More to the point, I have yet to see an internally regulated alternator to suit the car. Any ideas on who might supply one? Ames sells regular alternators as does Rockauto.

 

[64 kiwi boni]

8 hours ago, Fitzy said:

My car has an ammeter and not an idiot light...considering who owns the car, it probably needs several idiot lights! Do you know if I can hook up an internally regulated alternator to an ammeter? More to the point, I have yet to see an internally regulated alternator to suit the car. Any ideas on who might supply one? Ames sells regular alternators as does Rockauto.

 

Mate ! It’s a Delco remy isn’t it ? 
if so they are common as 

do yij have a favourite auto sparky ? 
if so go see him .

I am using commodore ones for most my cars . The 64 is the only one with an old fashion externally regulated Jobie .. 

Yes to the amp meter and you will need to wire in a tell tail light . It acts as trigger circuit for the diode pack I was blurbing 

Edited August 19, 2023 by 64 kiwi boni

[64 kiwi boni]

Early commodore one 

[Fitzy]

Well, look at those! I would love to fit a Commodore one, but how do you guarantee that the bolt spacings and so on will fit the 389? Did Delco-Remy simply make millions of the same alternator and car makers adapted to it? I am yet to do the voltage test on the car - I might just need a new regulator. We'll see. For the record, I did a quick test on the battery and it's 12.4V just sitting there, so that's a good sign. My aftermarket voltmeter might be giving an erroneous reading.

[64 kiwi boni]

very standard casting mate ...

start the 65 up and put your mutimeter in the battery ,,, you should be getting around 14 volts if the alternator is working 

[Fitzy]

It's been a while since I visited the site - so much for 'retirement!' I am now doing more hours than I have in the past 8 years. My 3 day a week gig vaporised into 5 days on, 2 off and will continue until staffing levels are back to where they should be. The spondoolies are pouring in though, so it's time to unchain the purse strings, let the moths out and spend, spend, spend.

Took the GP out like I normally do, just to keep everything lubricated and turning, got on the highway and GENTLY accelerated. All of a sudden 'CLACK, CLACK, CLACK' from the engine. I pulled over and gingerly went home with no more noise. Pulled the valve covers and I have one bent & 1 broken pushrod. The matching rockers were skewed sideways. F#cked if I know what the issue is. I replaced the cam, lifters & pushrods during the rebuild. The rockers looked fine so I reused them. I am suspecting either a lack of metal in the 60 year old rockers (have ordered new roller tip rockers) or dud hydraulic lifters, where either or both caused excessive clearance which allowed the pushrods to move sideways. I have no experience in this, so any feedback is welcome. Anecdotally, there are a bunch of bad lifters out there at the moment. I'd gladly fit solids but of course that means a new cam and all the associated labour.

It's possible that the rocker pedestal press fit studs are starting to come out or a valve has stuck (unlikely since it's rebuild was only 2000 miles ago.) FYI, adjustment of rockers is to torque their retaining nuts to 25 ft lb and then an extra half turn to preload the lifter. Others say to get the cylinder to the correct TDC position and then tighten as you rotate the pushrod to the point where resistance is just starting. Some of my rocker nuts I can torque down to the end of the thread and still have pushrod slop. Before anyone asks, I eyeballed every valve as I hand cranked the engine and they all move like they should, so I don't think the cam lobes have gone to lunch.

Did someone say LS3 crate motor? Or a Corolla?

[Frosty]

Another possible cause is lifter failure. It’s been a known problem here for awhile. Indyman Joe had issues when he rebuilt his 400 and he had a couple fail on him, even though the lifters came with the new cam and springs. He ended up ordering and waiting several months for top shelf Comp Cam brand lifters.

The stuff being made overseas is not holding up period.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Frosty

[64 kiwi boni]

mate! what the FORD !!! thats not nice !!!!

questions for you .. 

original push rods ?

i have never played with a ponti engine, but with my chevs it was a preset then run it, back each lifter off till it rattles and down till it stops the 1/2 to 3/4 turn down to set the push rod half way in the hydratic lifter 

that to me looks like shit lifters 

4 hours ago, Fitzy said:

. Some of my rocker nuts I can torque down to the end of the thread and still have pushrod slop.

this screams lifter fail

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Indyman Joe had issues when he rebuilt his 400 and he had a couple fail on him, even though the lifters came with the new cam and springs. He ended up ordering and waiting several months for top shelf Comp Cam brand lifters.

here is your answer mate !

[64 kiwi boni]

Do you need me to post your gasket set back ? i think your going to need the vally gaskets 

one more thing... did you set your valve spring load pressures in place on each head ? and are they to spec with the cam ?

Edited September 21, 2023 by 64 kiwi boni

[Fitzy]

Um...valve spring load pressure? All I know is the machinist ensured the spring heights were all correct, so I'm guessing that means all the springs are in spec. The cam is an Ames supplied TriPower grind, so it'd be pretty mild.

I also suspect dud lifters. I think I'm gonna go solids and be done with it. I'm pretty sure they were Mellings but you don't know where stuff is made anymore - they may have come from the Ying Tong Division of Mellings.

Anyway, solids sound shit hot at idle! Should chuck in a 'noisy' dual idler cam drive too! It's only money. I was gonna retire, but f#ck that - let's throw it at the car instead. It's a Spondoolie Fest!

1 hour ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

mate! what the FORD !!! thats not nice !!!!

questions for you .. 

original push rods ?

i have never played with a ponti engine, but with my chevs it was a preset then run it, back each lifter off till it rattles and down till it stops the 1/2 to 3/4 turn down to set the push rod half way in the hydratic lifter 

that to me looks like shit lifters 

this screams lifter fail

here is your answer mate !

I agree. 

I used new Mellings pushrods.

[Andy H]

14 hours ago, Fitzy said:

It's been a while since I visited the site - so much for 'retirement!' I am now doing more hours than I have in the past 8 years. My 3 day a week gig vaporised into 5 days on, 2 off and will continue until staffing levels are back to where they should be. The spondoolies are pouring in though, so it's time to unchain the purse strings, let the moths out and spend, spend, spend.

Took the GP out like I normally do, just to keep everything lubricated and turning, got on the highway and GENTLY accelerated. All of a sudden 'CLACK, CLACK, CLACK' from the engine. I pulled over and gingerly went home with no more noise. Pulled the valve covers and I have one bent & 1 broken pushrod. The matching rockers were skewed sideways. F#cked if I know what the issue is. I replaced the cam, lifters & pushrods during the rebuild. The rockers looked fine so I reused them. I am suspecting either a lack of metal in the 60 year old rockers (have ordered new roller tip rockers) or dud hydraulic lifters, where either or both caused excessive clearance which allowed the pushrods to move sideways. I have no experience in this, so any feedback is welcome. Anecdotally, there are a bunch of bad lifters out there at the moment. I'd gladly fit solids but of course that means a new cam and all the associated labour.

It's possible that the rocker pedestal press fit studs are starting to come out or a valve has stuck (unlikely since it's rebuild was only 2000 miles ago.) FYI, adjustment of rockers is to torque their retaining nuts to 25 ft lb and then an extra half turn to preload the lifter. Others say to get the cylinder to the correct TDC position and then tighten as you rotate the pushrod to the point where resistance is just starting. Some of my rocker nuts I can torque down to the end of the thread and still have pushrod slop. Before anyone asks, I eyeballed every valve as I hand cranked the engine and they all move like they should, so I don't think the cam lobes have gone to lunch.

Did someone say LS3 crate motor? Or a Corolla?

What a bummer 😞, I would recommend that you make them adjustable especially since you are changing to none stock rockers and was the heads milled during rebuild? 

I just got polylock nuts, they dont have any treads at the bottom and goes over the step on the ticket stud.

I also had to cut the top of the rocker stud that did not have any treads on my heads so that the nutts would clear the valvecover.

[indymanjoe]

i sold the comp cams lifters they sent me under warranty. i went with crowers and no complaints. my PRW rockers are coming out soon. My oil drain plug has a magnet on the end and i have been getting a toothpaste like build up of sludge. apparently this is also a known issue with prw. Why can't companys build good parts and just charge accordingly for them? Both cases i told my builder what i wanted and well it didnt go so good with his recommendations. Combined with metal not brass freeze plugs the reason the motor is coming out soon. The #1 reason i like to do all my own work.  kinda like frostys Pontiac dealership experience with the ujoints and flex plate bolts. NO One is going to do the job as good as YOU will. Period. 

[64 kiwi boni]

11 minutes ago, indymanjoe said:

i sold the comp cams lifters they sent me under warranty. i went with crowers and no complaints. my PRW rockers are coming out soon. My oil drain plug has a magnet on the end and i have been getting a toothpaste like build up of sludge. apparently this is also a known issue with prw. Why can't companys build good parts and just charge accordingly for them? Both cases i told my builder what i wanted and well it didnt go so good with his recommendations. Combined with metal not brass freeze plugs the reason the motor is coming out soon. The #1 reason i like to do all my own work.  kinda like frostys Pontiac dealership experience with the ujoints and flex plate bolts. NO One is going to do the job as good as YOU will. Period. 

so agree !!!

[TWO LANE BLACK TOP]

First things first...Remove all the rockers...Once the rockers are out of the way...Use a precision Straight edge ruler that is long enough to reach all of the valve stems at the same time...Put the edge of the ruler across the top of all the valve stems...To make sure that they are all the same height....If the straight edge is not touching all the valve stems...Use a feeler guage Set at .002 between the straight edge and the valve stems to tell if any of the valves are lower than the others...If the feeler guage slips in between the straight edge and valve stems on a couple of the valves...That is an Excellent Indicator that the Valve Springs are Weak or a possible retainer and lock issue.... And not pulling the valves closed all the way tight as they should...Which has an adverse effect on the valve seat pressure....Not to mention all the other related issues associated with that including bent pushrods...If one or two of the valves are higher than all the rest of the them...That is an Excellent Indicator of substandard Machine work...(Usually the valve seats cut too deep)...Can and will cause the pushrods to bend/brake...Pay special attention to the valve heights on the cylinder where the pushrods were bent/broken...

To properly set the Valve Lash/Lifter Preload...(hydraulic lifters) You can't just lock them down to 25 ft.lbs of torque...

Install the Rockers/Pushrods Loosely/Finger tight...Using a Breaker bar...Slowly rotate the engine (clockwise) by hand...Don't try to bumb it with the starter...When the exhaust valve on the #1 cylinder opens half way...Stop there... ( intake lifter is on the base circle/heel of the cam) Once the exhaust valve is halfway open...Then you can set the lash/preload on the #1 Intake valve...The best way to find zero lash is to using two fingers gently move the pushrod up and down (rotating the push rod can/will give you a false zero on the valve lash)...While slowly tightening down the rocker nut... Just as soon as the slack/movement of the pushrod stops...That is zero lash...then tighten the rocker 1/4 of a turn...

That should set the lifter preload to between .010 to .020....Measured from the bottom the the retainer in the lifter body to the top of the Pushrod cup...

Once the preload is set on the intake valve...Rotate the engine (by hand) all the way around until the #1 Intake valve opens All the way...And then Closes Half Way...Stop at that point...Then repeat the sequence of of finding zero lash then tighten 1/4 turn...On the #1 Exhaust valve... Then do the same thing on the rest of the cylinders in order...1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2...

Also while setting the valve lash look and make sure that the valve springs are not coil b inding...(Spring coils  collapsing in on each other when the valves are fully open) If the cylinder heads were just resurfaced (usually around .010 to .015 maybe .020 If they have never been cut before...The pushrod length/geometry should not be an issue....

As far as the lifters go...Unless the liters are mushroomed or excessively worn...they are probably Ok...Sometimes if the hydraulic lifters don't appear to pump up like they're supposed to it could very well be some crap in the oiling holes/ on the inside of the lifter body...The hydraulic lifters are easily disassembled/reassembled order to thoroughly clean them out...

Has been a long day.... Ya'll have good evening

TLBT...

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by TWO LANE BLACK TOP

[Fitzy]

Thanks for all that. I emailed Butler and will order Johnson hydraulic lifters, with polylocks and guide plates if they're available for the 389.

[TWO LANE BLACK TOP]

I'm sure that this will ruffle some feathers and get some hate...Polylocks on a basically stock valve train hydraulic lifter engine...Are not worth the effort or hassle....And there is No real advantage to using them...Unless you're running a Solid Roller or flat tappet cam... With roller rockers....

[Fitzy]

Thanks TwoLane for all your info. You can be assured I will take measurements and see what's going on. I mentioned polylocks coz that's what Butler recommended. They said that when using aftermarket valvetrain parts (I have roller tip rockers on order) the factory method of torquing retaining nuts is not going to work - danger of damage to valvetrain components. Polylocks will allow adjustment using the pushrod drag method.

[64 kiwi boni]

Two lanes information is gold !! it should have its own thread for future readers of our forum ! 

[Fitzy]

Yep - very helpful useful info.

You know - damned if I can remember: can I change lifters without taking the heads off? Please say it is so.

Two Lane's info got me wondering: how does a hydraulic lifter go bad? I understand crud potentially blocking the oil holes but there's not much else to them. Weak internal spring? Faulty plunger? Any ideas?

My oil has been clean & fresh ever since rebuild, so I doubt any crud is present but you never know.

[Fitzy]

To answer Andy's question - heads & block deck were milled just a couple of thou to ensure flatness - not enough to influence any associated dimensions.

I see you have a one piece guide plate arrangement - how did you attach that? I think I see additional bolts to hold it in place.