Ok, so to save any confusion I figured I would just let you look. So I quick built a smoke machine, screwed it into the #5 spark plug hole. Both intake & exhaust valves are closed. The 2nd video is cylinder #6. BTW, the popping you hear was fireworks down the street. Not from the engine or smoke.

Cylinder #5.MOVCylinder #6.MOV

Edited July 4, 20205 yr by Wrongway

15 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Ok, so to save any confusion I figured I would just let you look. So I quick built a smoke machine, screwed it into the #5 spark plug hole. Both intake & exhaust valves are closed. The 2nd video is cylinder #6.

 

I thought I replied to this last night, but I don't see the post now so I must have been hallucinating.

Wrongway, using that smoke machine was genius.  I'd like to know how you made it.

So what you have there is confirmation that your compression is escaping through the intake valves in both 5 and 6.  By any chance were the intake pushrods also damaged in those cylinders?  I'm betting you've got bent intake valves on those two, either from them jamming against the heads of the exhaust valves or from trying to close with pieces under their seats.

 

5 and 6 are adjacent to each other in the firing order, so that makes sense as well.

Keep us all in the loop - and again I'm impressed with your smoke machine idea.

 

Bear

Thank you Bear. The smoke machine was really simple. I can put up a post with instruction's on how I made it if you think it might help somebody else. Just tell me where on here to post it lol. So should I just pull the heads and check the valves or send to the machine shop for inspection? Since 5 & 6 are next to each other on the cam do you think there is damage to it? I did pull and inspect the cam when I replaced the exhaust valves, I didn't see any damage. But what's your thoughts. Also bro, I know one of those push rods that were damaged came from #6. I think the other was from #5 but I honesty don't remember. I do no the broken lifter was cylinder #8

So I pulled the heads today I thought y'all would be interested. 

I do believe I see some bent valves.

Glad you found the cause and can finally get to fixin it right.

Yes sir Bear, you are correct.

Thanks JUSTA, I am to. I don't think I would've found that without all of you guys helping and instructing me.

So the heads are going to the machine shop tomorrow for inspecting and to have new valves fitted.

wrong way, i see some nasty looking water galleries mate, you should consider pulling the block and and going over the whole bottom end along with a good clean up🙄

Wrongway, while I am not one to waste a lot of other people's money, kiwi has a good point. You are already this far into disassembly, it might be worth while to have the motor pulled and sent to a reputable engine builder to be completely disassmebled, cleaned, inspected, ported and re-built from the ground up. I suspect there could be one or two more gremlins waiting for you as you get further into the motor.

I won't lie, it will not be cheap. It probably won't be quick either but you will have a much more reliable motor when your're done, with a few more ponies than what you started with too. If your engine builder is any good, he may even have his own engine dyno to break it in, test, and tune it for you.

Edited July 7, 20205 yr by Frosty

Yeah, I am going to finish pulling the engine and tare it down the rest of the way so I can clean it up. The bottom end was rebuilt when I tore it down last year. At that point I had sent the block and heads to the machine shop. Had the block cleaned up, bored .30 the crank turned down .10 and the heads rebuilt using all new parts. The only parts that did not get completely replaced were the pushrods (which I should have and are new now) the crank (which was redone) and the harmonic balancer. Every other part in this engine has been replaced or rebuild using new parts. I'm already over $6k into just the engine. With less then 50mi on it. Honestly, I just cant afford to send the block back and have somebody else rebuild it. If I have to go that route it'll be pushed back to next year at the earliest. I'm getting ready to go drop the heads off. He said he should be able to inspect them this week. If there is anything y'all can think of that I need to look at other then making sure the pistons all come up the same height or anything that you want or need pics of please let me know. 

Thanks again everybody

Okay so the bottom end is fairly fresh then. I assumed it wasn't, my bad, sorry about that.

You might find yourself a true straight edge and check the heads and block deck to insure they are flat and true.

$6k is about what I had into my 455/462 too. So I feel your pain. That also doesn't count the time I removed it to replace the leaking rear and front main seals either, 7 years later.

So you wouldn't recommend taping paint sticks together and using it for a straight edge? Gotcha. lol. Just joking. I was thinking about using a carpenter square that was my grandfathers. Its about 3' long. Not sure what else I could use. And thanks frosty one, I hadn't thought about checking the decks for flatness. I will for sure now bro. I should hopefully have it out within the next couple of hours. Yeah bro, it sucks pulling a motor that should have been good to go so I feel for ya brother.

Ah Wrong way you may very well get away with a complete pull apart/ check and reassemble the bottom end, dont spare any money on cleaning though!

or it will bite you in the arse

 just take your time go through everything, any questions ask these guys, thay know there stuff 

 i would certainly get that block chemically cleaned.

 when you take everything apart ensure its all marked so it goes back were it was living! 

all bearings pistons  main caps 

lots of builders like last indian will center punch their main caps to id which one they are.

and the cool part about what you are doing, is your learning as you go mate, 

Yeah bro, I number stamped all of my main caps when I rebuilt it last year. Thanks bro

Edited July 8, 20205 yr by Wrongway

16 hours ago, Wrongway said:

So you wouldn't recommend taping paint sticks together and using it for a straight edge? Gotcha. lol. Just joking. I was thinking about using a carpenter square that was my grandfathers. Its about 3' long. Not sure what else I could use. And thanks frosty one, I hadn't thought about checking the decks for flatness. I will for sure now bro. I should hopefully have it out within the next couple of hours. Yeah bro, it sucks pulling a motor that should have been good to go so I feel for ya brother.

Grandpa's carpenter square is probably made post-WWII and probably straighter than anything you can buy at Home Depot today. Yeah, it will do in a pinch for sure! LOL!

I feel your pain watching you pull this motor apart. Been there and done that. I was able to cheat a little when I replaced the rear main seal. I was able to leave all the pistons in and raise the crank up just enough to get the old seal out and the new one in. I still had to remove all the main caps, but I didn't have to disconnect the pistons. It was still a horrible tear down on a 7-year old rebuild. I am still pissed at the engine builder, 15 years later. Let's just say he doesn't get my endorcement any more.

Double check your pushrods for straightness.  Rolling them on a flat piece of glass works really well.  If one wobbles at all, you know it's bent.

Keep everything in order so you can reinstall in the exact same location.  Especially important for all the valve train components and bearings, since part of the 'break in' process involves mating parts (pushrods, lfters, rocker arms) wearing in together.    "Moving things" on reassembly makes them all have to go through that again and causes additional wear.

When you've got it all back together and ready to fire up, prime the oiling system first.  Pull the distributor and use a tool chucked into a reversible drill to spin the oil pump (counter clockwise) to move oil all through the engine.  When you see it coming out the ends of the pushrods, you're ready.  I have an old distributor body that I removed the gear and advance mechanism from and spin with my big 1/2" drill.  I've also done it with a "spade" wood boring bit that I cut the point off of, so that it fit down into the oil pump drive, but that's a little harder because there's nothing to keep it centered and engaged in the slot. 

Rear main seal:  The achilles heel of Pontiac engines.  Whichever one you decide to use, I recommend getting the engine back together then overfilling it with oil and letting it hang from your hoist tilted downwards enough to completely submerge the rear of the crank.  Let it hang like that for a couple days or so to make sure it's leak free before you go to the trouble of putting it back into the car.  Don't forget to drain out the excess oil first.

Front timing cover seal.  If your engine is missing the alignment sleeves in the block on the bottom two timing cover bolt holes,  install the timing cover "loose" - don't tighten the bolts.  Install the balancer before you tighten them down.  Leaving the bolts loose like that will cause the cover to "self center" on the balancer snout when you install it, then you can snug down the timing cover. 

 

 

Huh, glass, never heard that one before but makes sense. For priming I also use the shaft from an old distributor. For the rear main seal I used a Butler performance 1 piece. It was hands down the fastest and easiest iv ever used or seen. That’s a brilliant way to “self aline” the timing cover. If mine are missing I’ll give that a try bro. Thanks you for the tips

Ok so great news so far. I have found NO metal in the oil. I did actually expect to find I tiny bit from all off the new parts breaking in. But none! I even ran it through a filter. I also shut the lights off and used a flash light. So now comes the stupid questions lol. Id still like to open up the oil pump and look/flush it out. Any danger in doing that? Also, it was suggested that I should cut the oil filter in half. I think by Last Indian, how can I cut it open without creating metal dust during the cut? 

Ohhh btw, I did find this in the oil pan. I have no clue what it is or where it came from. Any ideas? Its bright white but matte not glossy. Its plastic, not porcelain so I'm guessing its not from a plug. 

Sounds like you're finally catching a break or two on this.  That's good.  It was me who suggested cutting open the oil filter.  There are some nice tools available for doing it, but you may not want to buy one yourself.  They look and work like large tubing cutters.  The manual way to do it is described here:

What you're really interested in is removing the paper and spreading it out so that you can eyeball it for "shiny bits".

This video shows inspecting the filter out of a Cat, but the principles are the same.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Wrongway said:

Ohhh btw, I did find this in the oil pan. I have no clue what it is or where it came from. Any ideas? Its bright white but matte not glossy. Its plastic, not porcelain so I'm guessing its not from a plug. 

My bet is that it's a tooth from the factory cam timing gear.  There was a period of time when those gears had not metal, but nylon covered teeth.  The idea was that it made the engine run quieter. 

 

Edited July 8, 20205 yr by BearGFR

My mistake and apology Bear, I didn't remember who suggested it. Thank you for the pics and I will find a way or buy the tool to cut it open bud. I replaced the gears and chain with a new set on 1st tare down. So that may have been hiding in there someplace. Thanks bro and yes, finally good news lol.

There no harm in opening the oil pump to look inside for any contaminants...When you pull the cover just make sure that you don't damage the paper gasket...The gasket thickness is instrumental in determining the clearance of the gears inside the pump..Also mark the gears with a sharpie so you can be sure that they are oriented in the same position with each other as they were to begin with..Upon reassembly...A very slight amount of wear is normal on the cover...Something else that is often overlooked that is definitely worth checking...When you reinstall the oil pump..Drop the distributor in without the hold down bracket or the  gasket and let the distributor and the oil pump drive just rest in position naturally....Then measure with a feeler guage the distance between the bottom of the distributor and the engine block...Then measure the thickness of the gasket...Most gaskets are around .020 thick..but thicker ones are available... So if the measurement between the two is excessive... more than  .005 - .010  when you lock the distributor down it pushes the oil pump drive rod down on the pump gears too tightly against the cover of the oil pump and will cause premature wear...Send metal shavings through the entire engine and eventual failure of the pump...In order to prevent that from happening you would have to grind down one end of the oil pump drive rod in order to attain the proper clearance...Ideally when the distributor with the gasket..locked in place the pump drive rod should have right around .050 to .060 of up and down play between the pump and the distributor....(measured with a feeler guage at the oil pump)

Looks like a piece of an exhaust valve seal that was in the oil pan.....

Wow, ok you just scared the hell out of me brother Black Top! lol. Maybe I shouldn't disassemble the pump. If you say I need to then I will or can I just flush it? If that was an exhaust valve seal, it should be ok after the shop does the valve job right?  I did cut the oil filter open. Its always so much easier on the video lol.  I found very few metallic specs. I'm thinking maybe from breaking it in. But very few. Everything else is looking at this point. I did however find some white engine paint in the filter, just specs and little piece's from when the engine was painted. See what y'all think.

Wrongway, glad you’re zeroing in on all the things that need addressed. The white plastic pieces you found? What type of valve stem seals did you use? With all the valve related damage you’ve seen it just might be from them!

1 hour ago, Last Indian said:

Wrongway, glad you’re zeroing in on all the things that need addressed. The white plastic pieces you found? What type of valve stem seals did you use? With all the valve related damage you’ve seen it just might be from them!

Very true.  I hadn't thought of that.