64 LeMans

[Andy H]

Got the engine pretty much completed, mocking up all the brackets and pulley's since it came with all that in a box with some extra pulleys that did not belong, cleaning and painting everything, disassembled the starter and it doesn't look too bad so for now it gets some brushes and paint and has to do for now. Alternator was a different story, corroded inside and look like a cheap auto parts store rebuild job, one ear of the brush holder broken off, probably going to order a Power master with internal regulator. Power steering pump is getting a reseal and paint job. Next up is the carburetor and a transmission external reseal.

 

[64 kiwi boni]

Nice work Andy👍

[Fitzy]

Andy, is that a blanking grommet on the passenger side rocker cover? If so, you might want to read my blurb on crankcase ventilation (Fitzy's GP Is Back.)

Also, if you wanted to fit a coolant temp gauge like I did, now is the time to drill & tap the inlet manifold or else you may have to install an aftermarket adapter like I did.

Next time I build a Pontiac engine, I'll know exactly what to do!

[Andy H]

8 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Andy, is that a blanking grommet on the passenger side rocker cover? If so, you might want to read my blurb on crankcase ventilation (Fitzy's GP Is Back.)

Also, if you wanted to fit a coolant temp gauge like I did, now is the time to drill & tap the inlet manifold or else you may have to install an aftermarket adapter like I did.

Next time I build a Pontiac engine, I'll know exactly what to do!

Blanking grommet? Like a block of? It's a regular grommet for the stock pipe to go in and i believe there is supposed to be a hose from the pipe to the air cleaner but haven't quite figured that piece out yet.

Am using the stock air cleaner that i converted to fit a 4bbl so that part should be like stock or close. I will check out your Blurb 😄

If you look in front of the manifold there's a sending unit that's the one for the idiot light, i will probably replace that one with one for a gauge, probably put a small 3 gauge panel under the dash later on and don't worry about the temp light.

[Fitzy]

I also fitted a 3 gauge unit but retained the oil & temp idiot lights because I'm more likely to notice them come on than the gauge reading. Once again, there's blurb on my post - if you're interested. Yes, I was only guessing that grommet was blank - I couldn't see it from the pic and I do remember your very clever air cleaner modification. I also mentioned that I fitted a Flowkooler water pump and that motor stays at 180° even though it's still being run in.

[Andy H]

39 minutes ago, Fitzy said:

I also fitted a 3 gauge unit but retained the oil & temp idiot lights because I'm more likely to notice them come on than the gauge reading. Once again, there's blurb on my post - if you're interested. Yes, I was only guessing that grommet was blank - I couldn't see it from the pic and I do remember your very clever air cleaner modification. I also mentioned that I fitted a Flowkooler water pump and that motor stays at 180° even though it's still being run in.

Alright so you got me thinking, i have a slightly never car that i over heated ( didn't kill it) and i did not see it until the check engine light came on so kinda the same thing so I'll look in to making another hole 🙂

I had a water pump with a cast iron impeller so I'm going to use it but yes i have been eyeballing those water pumps so that will be plan B if i have overheating problems.

[Andy H]

Ok Fitzy so I'm trying to sort out my PCV and had a discussion with my buddy today that builds cars for a living and i think i have to move my hose from the pcv valve that I now have to the intake to the base of the carburetor so not only one port has a controlled vacuum leak ( that's basically what a pcv valve is) but all cylinders . Ohh and here's the pipe that goes into the passenger side valve cover.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Andy H

[Andy H]

Put new brushes in the starter and painted the housing, installed new seals in the p/s pump, put it back together and painted it, started to rebuild my stock fuel pump but need a extra set of hands to get the new diaphragm installed so that has to wait until tomorrow.

[Wrongway]

Looking really good Andy, and my PCV is set up exactly like you have yours on my 428.

[Fitzy]

Your engine is a generation behind mine - they changed lots of little details between 64 and 65, so this is where Wrongway's input will be the most help. As long as your PCV draws from the crankcase (which of course it does) and you have that little pipe from air cleaner to appropriate rocker cover, you'll be sweet.

On mine, PCV is located in valley cover and is ported to inlet under carby base. I used to have a factory pipe from stock air cleaner to DRIVER'S side rocker cover but mucked around with it and was forced to adopt an alternate method of allowing air into crankcase. It seems I now need to install oil baffles.

You're doing a good careful job there. I looked at my old fuel pump and couldn't figure out how I'd ever get it apart, so simply bought a new one and the old starter was absolutely shot, so replaced that too.

As far as your coolant gauge fitting goes, I'd be drilling that blank pad whilst it's easy to get to, but my own aftermarket radiator hose adapter looks fairly unobtrusive and was very easy to install. And yes, I reckon the idiot lights are worth retaining as per your overheating story.

I just had a look at your engine and um...are you sure your valve covers are on the right way? Mine are exactly reversed to yours and I doubt if GM would have reversed them for the new model year. Can someone else chime in and help out? We had a discussion a while ago as to whether those humps in the covers should be opposite each other or oriented the same. It seems that one hump is forward and the other is back, from the factory. For the record, my oil filler cap is on the passenger side cover.

[Wrongway]

Well, my engine is a 68' guys so I'm not sure how much held I can actually be, But here's my set up. Its an old pic, before I rewired the car so excuse the wiring mess.  

[Andy H]

2 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Looking really good Andy, and my PCV is set up exactly like you have yours on my 428.

So there might be hope then 😄

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

Well, my engine is a 68' guys so I'm not sure how much held I can actually be, But here's my set up. Its an old pic, before I rewired the car so excuse the wiring mess.  

So the way the pcv hose is routed in to the intake is stock? That is pretty much the way it is in my picture.

[Andy H]

2 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Your engine is a generation behind mine - they changed lots of little details between 64 and 65, so this is where Wrongway's input will be the most help. As long as your PCV draws from the crankcase (which of course it does) and you have that little pipe from air cleaner to appropriate rocker cover, you'll be sweet.

On mine, PCV is located in valley cover and is ported to inlet under carby base. I used to have a factory pipe from stock air cleaner to DRIVER'S side rocker cover but mucked around with it and was forced to adopt an alternate method of allowing air into crankcase. It seems I now need to install oil baffles.

You're doing a good careful job there. I looked at my old fuel pump and couldn't figure out how I'd ever get it apart, so simply bought a new one and the old starter was absolutely shot, so replaced that too.

As far as your coolant gauge fitting goes, I'd be drilling that blank pad whilst it's easy to get to, but my own aftermarket radiator hose adapter looks fairly unobtrusive and was very easy to install. And yes, I reckon the idiot lights are worth retaining as per your overheating story.

I just had a look at your engine and um...are you sure your valve covers are on the right way? Mine are exactly reversed to yours and I doubt if GM would have reversed them for the new model year. Can someone else chime in and help out? We had a discussion a while ago as to whether those humps in the covers should be opposite each other or oriented the same. It seems that one hump is forward and the other is back, from the factory. For the record, my oil filler cap is on the passenger side cover.

My engine is a big mix of 64 and newer parts, block is 73 heads are 69, front cover and brackets are 64 and i have a Edelbrock intake.

On the stock engine the pcv valve would have been behind the intake but on this one now it's in the front.

If you look at my intake both the pads are drilled and the square you see is where the Edelbrock emblem was and doesn't have a lot of material for treads. 

As far as valve covers i been told that the side of the covers that has a lip bent down goes on the outside towards the exhaust to prevent the gasket to slip down/ out, anyone else got some thoughts on this? You got me thinking, I'm looking at pictures online as far as the pcv pipe from the valve cover, i may have to try it the other way to see if that pipe fits better, i see it both ways online.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Andy H

[64 kiwi boni]

4 hours ago, Andy H said:

Ok Fitzy so I'm trying to sort out my PCV and had a discussion with my buddy today that builds cars for a living and i think i have to move my hose from the pcv valve that I now have to the intake to the base of the carburetor so not only one port has a controlled vacuum leak ( that's basically what a pcv valve is) but all cylinders . Ohh and here's the pipe that goes into the passenger side valve cover.

Andy that is the same tube i have on my 389 between the air cleaner and drivers side valve cover, my one has NO pcv valve it justA tube.

[64 kiwi boni]

17 minutes ago, Andy H said:

On mine, PCV is located in valley cover and is ported to inlet under carby base

thats a big change from 64 !

[Fitzy]

That does sound reasonable re rocker cover gaskets & lip. I remember examining mine and scratching my head whilst wondering why one lip is up, one is down and the 'hump' appears to serve no purpose whatsoever. And now I see Wrongway's oil filler cap is also on the driver's side.

I just found some pics - check out the different set ups!

[Andy H]

15 minutes ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Andy that is the same tube i have on my 389 between the air cleaner and drivers side valve cover, my one has NO pcv valve it justA tube.

Yes the pcv valve is in the valley cover, on my stock engine it would have been behind the intake but now on my Frankenstein engine it's in the front and the valve cover just has a pipe.

3 minutes ago, Fitzy said:

That does sound reasonable re rocker cover gaskets & lip. I remember examining mine and scratching my head whilst wondering why one lip is up, one is down and the 'hump' appears to serve no purpose whatsoever. And now I see Wrongway's oil filler cap is also on the driver's side.

I just found some pics - check out the different set ups!

I know there is a bunch of different configurations but i think I'm going to switch the covers to see if the vent pipe fits better.

[Fitzy]

I think Kiwi turned his cover end for end and found that the vent pipe was a much easier fit - that is to say the hole isn't longitudinally centre - it is offset.

[64 kiwi boni]

1 minute ago, Fitzy said:

I think Kiwi turned his cover end for end and found that the vent pipe was a much easier fit - that is to say the hole isn't longitudinally centre - it is offset.

yes i did and the factory tube fitted better that hooks cover to air cleaner,,, its dark out and i cant take a picture .... its cold and blowing out there too ! ..

 have beer and spag bog, planted  on the couch, so i am not moving !! haahha 

spag bog= spaghetti and mince in a  tomato sauce

[Fitzy]

I suggested spag bol tonight but we're having Thai takeaway instead. No, not taking away Thai girls, just the food. Almost as good, but not as much fun.

[Wrongway]

Yes Andy, the way my PCV is routed is stock bro

[Andy H]

Not much done today but I got a chance to flip the valve covers and test fit and what do you know it makes sense, thanks guys for making my wheels upstairs turn😄.  Can't say that the factory setup look nice, a pipe sticking Way out there but it is stock so i think i will keep it since it fits my theme of making it look stock ish.

Here is a picture from my manual how the pcv valve hose is supposed to be routed with a 2bbl carb also.

[Brentco]

There were a lot of variations of the pcv set up, even within the same model year depending on whether it was a California car or not. Unless you’re going for originality the only important thing is to set up a system that functions well. 

19 hours ago, Andy H said:

move my hose from the pcv valve that I now have to the intake to the base of the carburetor

That is the ideal set up. Ideally, you want the pcv vacuum source to be evenly distributed among the runners, or as evenly distributed as possible. Both to spread around the vacuum leak but also to spread around the crankcase waste product (including any oil sucked through) so it’s burned by all cylinders.
 

For the stockish/cruiser engine you’re building, the factory pcv routing to one intake runner would probably be fine. But if you want to move it, you have a few options. Aren’t you going to run an Edelbrock? The Edelbrock will have a large vac port designed for pcv. If not, you can get an aluminum carb spacer with a central vac port. If you don’t care about keeping the intake original you could also just drill a hole in the intake and add a port to a more central location that will draw to more runners. 
 

You are going to need a hose from the valve cover to the air cleaner. For most of the years the hose ran to a nipple in the side of the air cleaner assembly and there was a foam/sponge strip in a bracket inside the air cleaner housing that acted as a filter. You can reproduce that set up, or you can run the hose to a nipple inside the air cleaner filter itself, so it’s only breathing filtered air and you don’t need an extra sponge piece. 
 

Then you plug the hole in the other valve cover. This is the best functional set up. It creates a push pull system that freely evacuates the crankcase vapors under all engine conditions. 

You’ll need some baffling system in the breathing valve cover. If you have the original oil drippers and/or baffles in the valve covers, those should work. Or get baffled vcs or add your own baffle. The important thing is to make sure neither your pcv nor your breather is sucking tangible amounts of oil into the engine. That is very bad. I assume you’re using the factory valley pan which has a very good baffle for that part of the system. 
 

Btw, it’s been a while since we were last in touch. I finished my engine build about six months ago, so if you ever want to borrow any tools, including those ridiculously specific engine building tools that you can use only to perform a single task, just let me know. I also have a variety of leftover parts I didn’t end up using, like extra crank keys, block/head plugs, gaskets, studs, fasteners, and a whole grab bag of other random stuff. Shoot me a message if you need anything as you complete your build.  You’re right up the street from me, iirc, and I might have just what you’re looking for. 

[Fitzy]

Fig 6A-17 is exactly how mine is. You might be able to trim some of that hose from the air cleaner to neaten it up, or perhaps make your own piece of steel pipe that conforms nicely to your intended path.

[Andy H]

4 hours ago, Brentco said:

There were a lot of variations of the pcv set up, even within the same model year depending on whether it was a California car or not. Unless you’re going for originality the only important thing is to set up a system that functions well. 

That is the ideal set up. Ideally, you want the pcv vacuum source to be evenly distributed among the runners, or as evenly distributed as possible. Both to spread around the vacuum leak but also to spread around the crankcase waste product (including any oil sucked through) so it’s burned by all cylinders.
 

For the stockish/cruiser engine you’re building, the factory pcv routing to one intake runner would probably be fine. But if you want to move it, you have a few options. Aren’t you going to run an Edelbrock? The Edelbrock will have a large vac port designed for pcv. If not, you can get an aluminum carb spacer with a central vac port. If you don’t care about keeping the intake original you could also just drill a hole in the intake and add a port to a more central location that will draw to more runners. 
 

You are going to need a hose from the valve cover to the air cleaner. For most of the years the hose ran to a nipple in the side of the air cleaner assembly and there was a foam/sponge strip in a bracket inside the air cleaner housing that acted as a filter. You can reproduce that set up, or you can run the hose to a nipple inside the air cleaner filter itself, so it’s only breathing filtered air and you don’t need an extra sponge piece. 
 

Then you plug the hole in the other valve cover. This is the best functional set up. It creates a push pull system that freely evacuates the crankcase vapors under all engine conditions. 

You’ll need some baffling system in the breathing valve cover. If you have the original oil drippers and/or baffles in the valve covers, those should work. Or get baffled vcs or add your own baffle. The important thing is to make sure neither your pcv nor your breather is sucking tangible amounts of oil into the engine. That is very bad. I assume you’re using the factory valley pan which has a very good baffle for that part of the system. 
 

Btw, it’s been a while since we were last in touch. I finished my engine build about six months ago, so if you ever want to borrow any tools, including those ridiculously specific engine building tools that you can use only to perform a single task, just let me know. I also have a variety of leftover parts I didn’t end up using, like extra crank keys, block/head plugs, gaskets, studs, fasteners, and a whole grab bag of other random stuff. Shoot me a message if you need anything as you complete your build.  You’re right up the street from me, iirc, and I might have just what you’re looking for. 

Its been a while🙂So you got that engine done sweet, where are the pictures😃 just kidding, sound like you are a lot more efficient than me. taking my sweet time also have senior in high school and one in college that take some time, it also seems like every piece of this car need attention because it has been sitting so long.

I think you have the same ideas as me as far as the PVC I'm going to extend the hose from the PVC valve to the carburetor (yes its a Edelbrock) it has a port right there in the front so all i have to do is install a fitting for the hose and as far as the valve cover port to the air cleaner, if you look at the picture above i have the stock pipe and there is already one of those plastic filter thingy with a fitting in the air cleaner so all i need is a very short hose to connect the two, that pipe that is in the valve cover is a bit interesting it sticks through in to the valve cover about 2" and does not have a baffle and according to Kiwi his is the same so we will se how that goes and the other valve cover just has a cap for oil fill.

Good to know that somebody local has tools and good leftovers if i need something, thank you i will keep that in mind.

I have been going down to the donut shop in HB most weekends and there is probably close to a dozen Pontiacs down there sometimes along with all kinds of different cars of course, you newer know what is going to show up, you should check it out.

4 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Fig 6A-17 is exactly how mine is. You might be able to trim some of that hose from the air cleaner to neaten it up, or perhaps make your own piece of steel pipe that conforms nicely to your intended path.

I think for now im going to leave the pipe, it is the stock one and then i am going to move the other hose from the pcv valve and connect it to the carburettor base, it has a hole right ther.