Fitzy's GP is back!

[Frosty]

Fitzy - good luck with the KYBs. I put a set under Black Beauty this past spring in preparation for the Hot Rod Power Tour. Up until that time, I still had the 36-year old original factory AC Delco shocks and struts in it.

[64 kiwi boni]

11 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Put some fresh fuel in the GP today and took her for a quick spin. It will idle, cruise and accelerate no problems at all - smooth & powerful but if I want to give her a kick in the guts, it carries on and misfires and is jerky. I am convinced it's fuel related. I KNOW the tank internals are fine coz I coated it myself. All rubber fuel hoses are new, the fuel pump is new as is the inline filter. That leaves the carby. Twice now I have torn that thing down and forensically inspected every component, but I'm not a carb expert - I'm a backyarder. I may have to send it away for someone to rebuild properly.

On a brighter and total off topic note, I replaced all the shocks in my Isuzu Pickup today and lordy, one of the front ones was 100% cactus. They all look like the original 32 year old components, complete with Isuzu stamps embedded in them. I had a set of KYB shocks sent over from Rockauto at an insanely good price and am now eager to test drive it, but we're in the middle of a bitchin' thunderstorm with lots more to come. I shall report on the test drive when the time comes. Come on, I know you want to know how it drives!

so pushing you foot down slowly the car accelerates ok ?

my thought is accelerator pump. as i think mine is the same. when i get time i am going to put my leather plunger back in that i have had sitting on the bench in oil for the last few months. 

looking down the barrels i am not convinced that the squirt is good enough. 

[Fitzy]

Hi Frosty, that's pretty good for a shock - 36 years! Amazingly, all of mine seemed okay except for one. Mind you, the ute has had a very easy life and is low mileage, much like your TA.

Kiwi - I had the same thought. My plunger is new and looks & feels perfect. Confusingly, I can give her a little stab and at high speed, it'll accelerate perfectly from about 60mph to 70 and above with no effort at all. The more I think about it, it's at lower speeds, for example turning onto a highway after stopping and then accelerating...not hard but with intent. When I got the shocks from Rockauto I also picked up some NGK plugs (they were 2 bucks each!!!) so I'll chuck those in as a last ditch effort before laying on the ground sobbing.

These days, you never know what quality you're getting. The coil could be intermittently playing up, the Ignitor module, the plugs...at least with fuel it's either getting there or it ain't. 

So with accelerator pump plungers, I know the old ones were leather and I'm guessing they have now upgraded to some fancy new material but I wonder how ethanol affects them? I'll look it up.

[Fitzy]

Now I know why fuel injection is the modern way. I did some research on accelerator pumps yesterday. The debate rages on as to whether leather, neoprene or Viton is the best. Modern fuels play havoc with all of them, but to varying degrees. There was talk of how the alcohol will evaporate from modern fuel (empty float bowls after a week of sitting around) and how a residue can form and blah blah blah. Fuel injection counters this by keeping the fuel under pressure (electric fuel pump.)

Oh, and after years of use the accelerator pump bore in the aluminium AFB carb can become worn thereby severely hobbling the efficacy of even the newest, fanciest plunger. Bloody hell...

That's it - I'm buying a Prius. Hey - stop throwing rocks and (empty) beer cans at me! If you're going to throw them, make 'em full ones...and no Pabst Blue Ribbon.

[64 kiwi boni]

Completely agree with you about that plunger bore being worn mate . I am going to try my old leather plunger in mine and if there is no improvement 

I am justA replace the carb !

And ringo can you please tell fitzy to stop using the “p” word . It’s justA down right wrong 

The only “p” word we like around here is Pontiac !!! 

[Fitzy]

I couldn't stop thinking about what Kiwi said re a weak stream of fuel being discharged (sounds like me at 3am going for a pee) upon activating the throttle and peering down the carb throat, so I had a look and sure enough, it's weak and not the steady stream you expect. I have admitted defeat and am going to spend five thousand dollars on fuel injection...

Just kidding! Hanging my head in shame, I am going to send the carb to Melbourne, Victoria to a place that has been rebuilding carbs since the 60s. I do NOT know what they'll do if the plunger bore is worn. Whatever - just fix it guys so I can go for a drive.

[64 kiwi boni]

2 hours ago, Fitzy said:

I couldn't stop thinking about what Kiwi said re a weak stream of fuel being discharged (sounds like me at 3am going for a pee) upon activating the throttle and peering down the carb throat, so I had a look and sure enough, it's weak and not the steady stream you expect. I have admitted defeat and am going to spend five thousand dollars on fuel injection...

Just kidding! Hanging my head in shame, I am going to send the carb to Melbourne, Victoria to a place that has been rebuilding carbs since the 60s. I do NOT know what they'll do if the plunger bore is worn. Whatever - just fix it guys so I can go for a drive.

Now you know we like pictures around here aye !!!

so when they rebuild it 

show us what they have done ! 
Will they sleeve the bore on the pump ? 
do they use a oversized piston seal ? 
what is a acceptable squirt ? 
All I know is I have compared the squirt on my Holley in the Camaro to the squirt from. The carter and … yip I can piss better than the carter ! 🙄

No fuel = no go 

[Frosty]

14 hours ago, Fitzy said:

That's it - I'm buying a Prius. Hey - stop throwing rocks and (empty) beer cans at me! If you're going to throw them, make 'em full ones...and no Pabst Blue Ribbon.

If you are not going to care to drive the good stuff, why the hell should we throw the good stuff? PBR is too good for you mate, Moosehead, Billy Beer, and Red, White, and Blue it is! 

Oh, one more thing....for even thinking about driving a Prius, turn in your "MAN" card at the office please. Real men don't drive Prius, their eco-conscious wives and kids do.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Frosty

[JUSTA6]

17 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Now I know why fuel injection is the modern way. I did some research on accelerator pumps yesterday. The debate rages on as to whether leather, neoprene or Viton is the best. Modern fuels play havoc with all of them, but to varying degrees. There was talk of how the alcohol will evaporate from modern fuel (empty float bowls after a week of sitting around) and how a residue can form and blah blah blah. Fuel injection counters this by keeping the fuel under pressure (electric fuel pump.)

Oh, and after years of use the accelerator pump bore in the aluminium AFB carb can become worn thereby severely hobbling the efficacy of even the newest, fanciest plunger. Bloody hell...

That's it - I'm buying a Prius. Hey - stop throwing rocks and (empty) beer cans at me! If you're going to throw them, make 'em full ones...and no Pabst Blue Ribbon.

  PRE ASS still has an engine.  FULL ASS is EV.  DumbASS is the guy that forgets to drag his diesel generator on a trailer.  AAA will NOT spend 6hrs on the side of the road with you while your car charges.  SMART ASS fixes his carb and is admired by all. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by JUSTA6

[Fitzy]

You can put the rocks and the PBR away. Will take carb off this weekend and we'll just have to wait and see what happens when it comes back. I've cancelled the order for the Prius.

[JUSTA6]

4 hours ago, Fitzy said:

You can put the rocks and the PBR away. Will take carb off this weekend and we'll just have to wait and see what happens when it comes back. I've cancelled the order for the Prius.

1st impression, like everyone else, accelerator pump. Leather is by far the best and can be soaked and it will expand to be used again. ( sounds like Chris is already priming one of his ) You will not wear out the bore with the rubber or leather, no worries. Do a quick check of your metering rods. Don't ask me how, but they do get bent.  A buddy would pull his and roll them on his kitchen counter to make sure they are straight.  Tap them lightly with a small ball peen hammer til straight.  This would affect his mid range acceleration on his Camaro.  Did you vacume adjust the carb on your 1st fire? 

[Fitzy]

Hey JustA, I read about how the accel plunger bore has to be dead smooth in order to provide a seal. Peeps suggested to sand it smooth and then fill any pits or deep scratches with JB weld and gently smooth that. Yes, I could once again dismantle it  but I've had enough and am happy to let an expert do the job this time. Once you start reading about carbs, only then does the depth of engineering that goes into what appears to be a simple mixing device, become apparent. Carter made 505 different carbs and it's those tiny incremental differences that can make your engine run like a dog or like a Rolls-Royce. For example, the same carb fitted to a SBC or a Pontiac will generate different characteristics. There's a little ID tag held in place by one of the top cover screws and it's critical that you at least have the correct carb for your car as a starting point. I checked mine and sure enough, it's for a 1965 389 auto. 

I will be sure to inform the shop of the car's set up re auto & diff, and the fact it's running a TriPower cam and headers with no steer or aircon - just in case a jet change or something might make a difference.

The Carburetor Shop has an excellent website and is full of information, if anyone's interested.

I really hope Kiwi's leather plunger does the trick and that he avoids what I'm about to endure.

Um...vacuum adjust the carb??? No idea what that means.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Fitzy
Forgot something

[64 kiwi boni]

7 hours ago, Fitzy said:

You can put the rocks and the PBR away. Will take carb off this weekend and we'll just have to wait and see what happens when it comes back. I've cancelled the order for the Prius.

phew!! that justA saved me 5 grand in flights and travel to come over and slap ya !!!

[64 kiwi boni]

 ( sounds like Chris is already priming one of his )

Right from when you and I rebuilt our carbs I wasn’t 100% happy with the power of the squirt. That plunger in the picture has been sitting in oil for months now and I will try it in the carter . If it doesn’t improve the acceleration on my worn old 389 I am justA going to buy a brand new edlebrock carb.

Edited December 3, 2022 by 64 kiwi boni

[64 kiwi boni]

3 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Do a quick check of your metering rods. Don't ask me how, but they do get bent.  A buddy would pull his and roll them on his kitchen counter to make sure they are straight.  Tap them lightly with a small ball peen hammer til straight. 

great idea! and easy to do 👍

2 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Um...vacuum adjust the carb??? No idea what that means.

Come on JustA enlighten us. in fine tuning a carter 

[Fitzy]

Welcome to Forever Carter. I took carb off the car in order to drain it and thoroughly dry it out prior to packing & sending it, possibly on Monday. I opened the throttle once more and this time the discharge looked healthy! I couldn't help myself: I removed the top cover and inspected the accelerator pump plunger and bore. The bore is smooth and the taper is still there, but the plunger didn't feel tight enough, I thought. You know, a size up plunger could fix everything. I inspected the plunger material and it appears to be leather - see pics. I soaked the plunger in oil for about 30 mins and pushed it into it's bore. I daresay it now probably seals better,  but surely being immersed in petrol will soon get rid of the oil. Whatever: carb is being sent away. Like I said: I'm a backyarder and the carb experts might find all sorts of things that are wrong.

Many years ago, I bought a brand new Holley 600, sports air cleaner and an Edelbrock intake for my old 289 Fairlane. Installed all straight outa the box. Car ran brilliantly and the only thing I had to do was adjust the idle speed & mixture. I stupidly thought running a rebuild kit through the old Carter would produce a similar result. I'm still waiting for that moment.

The last pic is of my 40 year old Sidchrome Made In Australia socket wrench. I finally managed to break it. Sidchrome (a famous Australian brand of high quality tools) has always given a lifetime guarantee on it's products. For a laugh, I told them the tool had failed and does the warranty still apply. Can you believe it - they sent me a new replacement. I didn't mention to them the insanely crazy thing I was doing with the wrench when it broke. I was attempting to remove a heavily rusted towball nut and had attached a breaker bar (pipe) over the handle of the wrench and applied some force and 'snap.' I'm pretty sure it was never meant to be abused like that. In desperation, I tried to loosen the nut with my rattle gun - no cigar. I took the offending towball to a tyre place and asked if they would have a go with their rattle gun. The dude comes out to the car with a Miwaukee cordless rattle gun. "That won't even look at it," I thought as I watched him slide the socket over the nut. Within 3 tenths of a second, this incredibly powerful cordless unit had loosened that nut like it was nothing. I'm impressed.

Whoops! I forgot. I had a look at the metering rods and they look absolutely fine. I reckon you could bend them if you weren't  careful during reassembly. When mating the top cover with the main body, there was some resistance. I found that removing the metering rods, then attaching the top cover and then CAREFULLY playing with the rods until they happily settled down where they're supposed to sit, was the safest way to reassemble those parts.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Fitzy
Forgot something

[Wrongway]

Hey Chris, if you do end up buying a new Edelbrock check out their new AVS2. They claim almost fuel injection throttle response due to redesigning the orifices. I can't speak to all that technical stuff, but I can say that I've ran Edelbrock carbs for years and I'm impressed with the AVS2 bro. 

[64 kiwi boni]

9 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Hey Chris, if you do end up buying a new Edelbrock check out their new AVS2. They claim almost fuel injection throttle response due to redesigning the orifices. I can't speak to all that technical stuff, but I can say that I've ran Edelbrock carbs for years and I'm impressed with the AVS2 bro. 

Ah good advise mate 👍

that’s exactly what I will do if I can’t get this carter to perform 👍

[JUSTA6]

When adjusting your idle/mixture screws, (right/wrong) I always start with 1 1/2 turns out from seated.  I always do the left side 1st.  Go out 1/4 turn at a time til highest rev is achieved, then the right side, same. Go back and repeat for final adjust.  Now for most your close enough.  If you unplug a manifold vacume line.  Plug the hose and attach a vacume gauge,  now repeat adjustments using highest vacume acheived for both screws.  Remember the vacume runs the advance for your distributor, so the best levels will throw in your advance quicker.   Right or wrong, this is the way I was taught from my Dad and it has always worked for me. Esp on small displacement motorcycle/ snowmobile engines to sync multiple carbs.  Vacume gauge is also a good way to check your hoses as well.  You can check both ends of a hose to make sure it doesn't have a split somewhere in the line and that your getting same readings at both ends.  That's my story, I'm stickin to it.  The more cool tools you have always impress the ladies too.....  OK maybe NOT. 

[Wrongway]

Thats an awesome piece of info Justa!

[Fitzy]

I agree. I have always adjusted my idle mixture just as you described, but have never bothered with vacuum readings. I reckon I will always know when there is a vacuum leak - lots of experience there. I figure that when you're fiddling with the idle mixture, the engine will be happiest when it's idling at it's highest.

After Wrongway suggested to Kiwi about purchasing an AVS2, I had a look around. They're not cheap (what is anymore?) and Edelbrock is certainly a respected name but those carbs aren't without their issues, according to a 'AVS2 problems' search on the net. I also like how the AVS is based on a Carter - high praise indeed. I'm gonna stick with the ol' Carter and will let you know what happens. Will try and send it off tomorrow.

[Fitzy]

Carby is drained, dried, bagged, padded and in it's box. Let's have a bet on the potential cost of this exercise. I'm going to bet that the cost will be not far off the purchase price of a nice new AVS2!    D'oh!

Here's a pic of the boxed carby - farewell old friend. Come back working properly!

And here's another pic to keep all the EV demons away. Hmm...wait a minute - no carb on an EV...

[64 kiwi boni]

9 hours ago, Fitzy said:

I agree. I have always adjusted my idle mixture just as you described, but have never bothered with vacuum readings. I reckon I will always know when there is a vacuum leak - lots of experience there. I figure that when you're fiddling with the idle mixture, the engine will be happiest when it's idling at it's highest.

After Wrongway suggested to Kiwi about purchasing an AVS2, I had a look around. They're not cheap (what is anymore?) and Edelbrock is certainly a respected name but those carbs aren't without their issues, according to a 'AVS2 problems' search on the net. I also like how the AVS is based on a Carter - high praise indeed. I'm gonna stick with the ol' Carter and will let you know what happens. Will try and send it off tomorrow.

Good on you mate 

[64 kiwi boni]

$675 nz dollars for a brand new edelbrock … hope that your not paying any more than 5 hundy ozzy dollars mate ! 

[Fitzy]

Let's find out!!!