Fitzy's GP is back!

[Fitzy]

Believe me, if I had another 2 arms (take note, God: add extra arms in next evolutionary step) I would have taken a photo. My dignity dissolved many years ago, along with my sanity. Anyway, the car seems happy. 

[Fitzy]

Yesterday was another day of unparalleled fun. It was finally time to man up and support the car on my Chinese made jack stands (I don't have a hoist unlike other showoffs on this forum) and crawl under there and remove the final bolts that hold the engine in place, namely the torque converter housing and flex plate bolts. The housing was easy to remove. So, the torque coverter bolts have shallow heads, I suppose to ensure clearance as they spin around, so any wrench has minimal contact with the head. There's no way any socket will ever squeeze in there because of the proximity of the oil pan. In addition to this, the welded ring gear provides a nice little bump of molten steel adjacent to the bolt head, so that when you finally get some purchase on the bolt, as the wrench starts to turn, the shank touches the bump and your tool spins off, normally in the direction of your face. After much ducking & weaving as the wrench flew off several times, I changed the direction of the wrench, slid a piece of pipe over it's end as a cheater bar and finally, reluctantly the bolt loosened. Time to crawl out, turn the engine over a bit, crawl back under and repeat until the other 2 bolts lined up - thankfully there are only 3. I slept for 10 hours last night!

As far as I can tell, the engine is now ready to come out. I will take photos of that event, especially the bit where 300kg of cast iron crashes to the floor. Always best to look on the gloomy side. That way, when it happens there's no surprise and if it doesn't happen, then life is good.😊

[Fitzy]

Well, who would have thought today would be so productive? I removed the hood and peered into the engine bay one last time looking for wires or bolts that I may have overlooked. I blew the dust off the engine crane and wheeled it over to the engine. I thought I'd hook it up and see what happened. If the engine moved, then I could assume that everything was disconnected and it should come out. To my utter surprise, with a couple of nudges it practically removed itself! So, I thought "bugger it, I'll just remove it myself - I don't really need a hand." And so I removed the engine. It didn't crash to the floor and was an incredibly easy manoeuvre. Of course, trying to coerce it back in will be another story.

The only minor problem I experienced was trying to position the engine stand close enough to the engine in order to secure it. After much head scratching, I elevated the legs of the crane just enough to allow the engine stand to roll in close enough to attach the 4 high tensile bolts that I bought months ago for this very event.

I am now in my element: engine teardown and engine bay clean up. Happy days!

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Fitzy
Double up on photo

[64 kiwi boni]

nice work 👍

[JUSTA6]

Looks like you could pickup about 12in of lift from your hoist by removing the chain from the end and moving the links/hook closer to the hoist. Did it clear the core support?   Thankz for the pic's.   

Edited August 15, 2021 by JUSTA6

[Wrongway]

Awesome job brother!

[Fitzy]

The hoist had plenty of lift left in it - I performed a test run when I first bought it. The green sling was an emergency backup in case the chain failed.

I am convinced that the engine is in good nick because of it's excellent compression test and from what I've seen so far, there's no sludge or evidence of mechanical trauma. Still, I only want to do this job once, so I'll get in there and have a look. It's missing it's thermostat and the cooling system was definitely full of crud, so the block will be getting hot tanked and crack tested straight up before anything else.

[Fitzy]

Today I bought some heavy duty degreaser and washed down the engine bay and engine. Every day I remove another couple of parts and today the distributor, fuel pump & water pump came off. Take a look at the water pump - what the f@#k is going on there? I'm thinking of a Flow Kooler replacement. Does anyone have any experience with one of those? I read that Pontiacs have an 'inherent hot run problem.' I also stopped worrying about the harmonic balancer bolt, wedged a screwdriver into the flex plate, got my torque wrench & impact socket out and then slipped on my purpose made piece of water pipe (that I found at the tip) and with a bit of effort that sucker came undone.

I noticed that when I removed the distributor, it has no radial play in it's shaft, but will move up & down about 2 or 3mm. Does that sound right? I would imagine that a little bit of lash helps it mesh with the camshaft gear.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Fitzy
First photo keeps doubling up!

[Frosty]

Sounds like Butler Performance likes Flow Kooler.....read on mate!

https://butlerperformance.com/n-13390-pontiac-water-pumps.html

Butler is one of THE top notch Pontiac engine builders in the U.S.!

 

[JUSTA6]

I have the add saved in my in my HARD file.  (real paper)  Was recommended after I  had replaced everything in the cooling system on the GTO.  Came out of Crusin news.

[Fitzy]

Okay everyone, you can stop wasting time looking at Kiwi's thread about his silly car, which incidentally is looking bloody great. Today, I found time to tear down the 389. As far as I can see, the only issues it seems to have is the neglected cooling system and one of the rocker arms was off centre. You can see the damage to the rocker and where it's been hammering on the valve spring retainer. Any ideas on what might cause that? The cam shows a little wear on the lobes, and there's some sludge in the oil pan but the pistons look good, there's no ridge at the top of each cylinder, no burnt valves and no play in the crank. The timing gear is a little sloppy (I can move it a full 5mm before the crank sprocket takes up the slack) but the head gaskets look almost new. I wonder if it has undergone a mild rings & bearings rebuild at some point? I'll never know.

Those main bearing saddles have been drilled as 4 bolt. Is that normal?

Anyway, I'll pull the pistons & crank tomorrow and once the block is properly degreased & inspected, I want to try and get it to the machinist ASAP.

Take a look at my crappy Toledo brand harmonic balancer puller! That was the damage done to it after one use! Thanks China.

I tried to load all this yesterday but it wouldn't  do it, so ignore my remarks on Kiwi's thread - my previous content was kept. Ringo - go back to your margharita.

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Fitzy
Double up on photo

[Fitzy]

I am a little perplexed as to what was making the tick, tick, tick sound when my car abruptly came off the concrete slab many moons ago. I assumed that the oil pan had been pushed up against the crank or the oil pickup was touching something, but after seeing that dodgy rocker, is it possible that the bump made it go awry? A malfunctioning tappet caused excessive clearance and then the rocker moves sideways?

The oil pump pickup & windage tray are absolutely untouched.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Fitzy
Grammar correction

[64 kiwi boni]

wow look at those tiny chambers !! , and flat top pistons ... certainly hi comp engine 👍

fitzy, your heads are way cleaner than mine was when i popped the covers off, mine was full of gunk,, last indian suggested it was from lots of short runs and the motor not getting hot enough.

little old lady used for church on sundays 1 block away syndrome

[JUSTA6]

3 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Okay everyone, you can stop wasting time looking at Kiwi's thread about his silly car, which incidentally is looking bloody great. Today, I found time to tear down the 389. As far as I can see, the only issues it seems to have is the neglected cooling system and one of the rocker arms was off centre. You can see the damage to the rocker and where it's been hammering on the valve spring retainer. Any ideas on what might cause that? The cam shows a little wear on the lobes, and there's some sludge in the oil pan but the pistons look good, there's no ridge at the top of each cylinder, no burnt valves and no play in the crank. The timing gear is a little sloppy (I can move it a full 5mm before the crank sprocket takes up the slack) but the head gaskets look almost new. I wonder if it has undergone a mild rings & bearings rebuild at some point? I'll never know.

Those main bearing saddles have been drilled as 4 bolt. Is that normal?

Anyway, I'll pull the pistons & crank tomorrow and once the block is properly degreased & inspected, I want to try and get it to the machinist ASAP.

Take a look at my crappy Toledo brand harmonic balancer puller! That was the damage done to it after one use! Thanks China.

I tried to load all this yesterday but it wouldn't  do it, so ignore my remarks on Kiwi's thread - my previous content was kept. Ringo - go back to your margharita.

 

Is the pushrod bent?  Roll it on a table. That's been going on a long time.  Overall looks good.

[JUSTA6]

On 8/16/2021 at 3:10 AM, Fitzy said:

Today I bought some heavy duty degreaser and washed down the engine bay and engine. Every day I remove another couple of parts and today the distributor, fuel pump & water pump came off. Take a look at the water pump - what the f@#k is going on there? I'm thinking of a Flow Kooler replacement. Does anyone have any experience with one of those? I read that Pontiacs have an 'inherent hot run problem.' I also stopped worrying about the harmonic balancer bolt, wedged a screwdriver into the flex plate, got my torque wrench & impact socket out and then slipped on my purpose made piece of water pipe (that I found at the tip) and with a bit of effort that sucker came undone.

I noticed that when I removed the distributor, it has no radial play in it's shaft, but will move up & down about 2 or 3mm. Does that sound right? I would imagine that a little bit of lash helps it mesh with the camshaft gear.

 

With that much corrosion, think about replacing those 55 year old freeze plugs in the block. They might be gettin pretty thin.

3 hours ago, Fitzy said:

I am a little perplexed as to what was making the tick, tick, tick sound when my car abruptly came off the concrete slab many moons ago. I assumed that the oil pan had been pushed up against the crank or the oil pickup was touching something, but after seeing that dodgy rocker, is it possible that the bump made it go awry? A malfunctioning tappet caused excessive clearance and then the rocker moves sideways?

The oil pump pickup & windage tray are absolutely untouched.

Check the dust shield on the tranny if you think it bottomed out?

[Fitzy]

Thanks Everyone: new freeze plugs and complete gasket & seal kit are in the Pontiac room. Today, I methodically removed, inspected, cleaned & labelled each valvetrain component so as to ensure correct location upon rebuild. I found a bent pushrod, but on another cylinder. So that's one damaged rocker & retainer, and one bent pushrod but from different cylinders. I completely tore the rest of the engine down and there are some very light scuff marks on some piston skirts, and some very light wear on one of the main bearings. Otherwise, everything looks new. The cylinder bores are dead clean and unmarked, the bearings are all perfect and there just seems to be minimal wear throughout. The compression test I did some time ago was super high and the oil pressure idiot light would go out whilst the engine was cranking to start, so I'm a bit confused as to what's been done in the past - I assumed that it was untouched. The odometer reads 68k miles and I know it's been sitting in a barn or something for ages (that caused the terrible trunk floor rust) but just don't know it's history. PHS might be able to help, I suppose.

So, yeah Kiwi - closed chambers and flat tops equate to 10.5 comp. I posted my comp results and we talked about the possibility of different engine applications between your car & mine. The Bonnie may have received a milder state of tune to go with it's luxury brief, whereas the GP was a bit more hoony!

And JustA, the trans pan is unmarked, as is the torque converter cover plate. I can't figure it out, but I reckon that dodgy rocker was the source of the ticking sound.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Fitzy
Double up on photo

[64 kiwi boni]

nice work mate.. so whats the plan? stroker? refresh ? 

Edited August 26, 2021 by 64 kiwi boni

[Frosty]

What shape is the timing chain in Fitzy? The photo looks like it has some slack in it.

[Fitzy]

Kiwi: I'm undecided as to how to proceed. I'm reluctant to touch something in such good condition as far as rotating assembly goes. The heads can go in for a refresh and I think that might be the simplest most cost effective solution. Yes, this is the perfect opportunity to chuck in a stroker, but I hear that kits are hard to get right now what with all the restrictions in place. And Frosty, there was plenty of slack in the timing chain. It, along with most ancillary bits & pieces will be replaced.

Today, I am looking at the bearings to try and find any oversize marks that will denote a rebuild at some point in the past. The cam bearings are a perfect fit around the cam and everything just looks too good to muck around with.

[JUSTA6]

42 minutes ago, Fitzy said:

Kiwi: I'm undecided as to how to proceed. I'm reluctant to touch something in such good condition as far as rotating assembly goes. The heads can go in for a refresh and I think that might be the simplest most cost effective solution. Yes, this is the perfect opportunity to chuck in a stroker, but I hear that kits are hard to get right now what with all the restrictions in place. And Frosty, there was plenty of slack in the timing chain. It, along with most ancillary bits & pieces will be replaced.

Today, I am looking at the bearings to try and find any oversize marks that will denote a rebuild at some point in the past. The cam bearings are a perfect fit around the cam and everything just looks too good to muck around with.

Fitzy.  Do you have plastic gauge to check your bearings.  Cheap N easy way to see what your clearances are and you can visually inspect bearings at same time.  With no ridge in your cyls and everything looking good, I agree to check and start puttin er back together.   $ Dollar not saved, Justa redirected for now. 

[Fitzy]

Thanks JustA, I was going to get some plastigage and give it a crack (pun intended!)

I have tried to find excessive play everywhere and it just seems perfect.

Now - can anyone help me with this: have a look at the pics. Strangely, only one conrod has different bolts to the rest. 7 rods have a large 'C' stamped into the bolthead, only one has F-C embossed on top of the bolt. Are the C bolts factory?

Also, that's a main bearing. The stamped ID looks factory to me and I can't see if there's any mention of an oversize, like +030 for example. I'm going to ask the Ames Tech Dept the same thing. Once I know, I can order new bearings.

Same with the pistons: there are a couple of stamps but no reference to an oversize. It all looks factory to me, which means never touched, except for those errant rod bolts.

The cam is a bog stock 066 (Pontiac thoughtfully made that clear with nice big stamped numbers on it.) so I'll upgrade that to something a little more exciting.

F@cked if I can work it out.

[Fitzy]

Right - here's something to share. When I pulled the thermostat housing off the inlet manifold, the thermostat which it was supposed to house had left the house! Have a look at the water jacket holes in the block and one of the heads. See those blocked holes? That's crud which seems to have cemented itself into place. I reckon the engine overheated a few times before the previous owner removed the thermostat and just drove it like that.

There's a couple of lessons here: do NOT neglect your cooling system. Take the time to flush it once a year and refill with nice fresh coolant, and keep your oil squeaky clean. Clean oil and a clean filter will save you so many headaches in future.

[64 kiwi boni]

man i am so glad you pulled your motor down first .

by the time october comes round, i will have all the bits sitting here ready for you to refresh my 389 !!!

haahha... box a beers in it for ya too 

[JUSTA6]

6 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Right - here's something to share. When I pulled the thermostat housing off the inlet manifold, the thermostat which it was supposed to house had left the house! Have a look at the water jacket holes in the block and one of the heads. See those blocked holes? That's crud which seems to have cemented itself into place. I reckon the engine overheated a few times before the previous owner removed the thermostat and just drove it like that.

There's a couple of lessons here: do NOT neglect your cooling system. Take the time to flush it once a year and refill with nice fresh coolant, and keep your oil squeaky clean. Clean oil and a clean filter will save you so many headaches in future.

Great pic's and showing yet another problem that somebody else can run into.  Thankz for showing it's always a good idea to check that engine out.  Nows the time.  

[Fitzy]

13 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

man i am so glad you pulled your motor down first .

by the time october comes round, i will have all the bits sitting here ready for you to refresh my 389 !!!

haahha... box a beers in it for ya too 

Mate, we'll crack a coupla beers then simply whack that baby back together. What could go wrong? Don't worry about machining, crack testing or honing it. We'll just fill the block with goodies then fry the tyres until the Boss calls us back in and gives you a smack for being naughty...which you probably enjoy.