64 LeMans

[Andy H]

Ran across an interesting article

https://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/mckellars-masterpiece-the-pontiac-overhead-cam-421-v8/

 

[Frosty]

I have written about the overhead cam tri-power 421 in past threads. It was installed in Mac's '64 Grand Prix as a retirement gift from GM. It was temperamental to start. Mac took it to a repair shop and the shop offered to swap out the motor for a newer Pontiac motor. Shortly thereafter, Mac changed his mind and wanted his old motor back but it was too late, the engine was pulled and re-sold by the shop to someone else. He never got the motor back before he died. A photo of the motor showed up a few years ago on Facebook next to a '69 Trans Am/TA Clone. The asking price (then) was $400k. Responders to the Facebook page were outraged and demanded the motor to go back to Mac's family.

 

Mac's daughter has commented on that thread as well. The only car it belongs is Mac's '64 GP. Otherwise it needs to go to the Pontiac Transportation Museum.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Frosty

[Andy H]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

I have written about the overhead cam tri-power 421 in past threads. It was installed in Mac's '64 Grand Prix as a retirement gift from GM. It was temperamental to start. Mac took it to a repair shop and the shop offered to swap out the motor for a newer Pontiac motor. Shortly thereafter, Mac changed his mind and wanted his old motor back but it was too late, the engine was pulled and re-sold by the shop to someone else. He never got the motor back before he died. A photo of the motor showed up a few years ago on Facebook next to a '69 Trans Am/TA Clone. The asking price (then) was $400k. Responders to the Facebook page were outraged and demanded the motor to go back to Mac's family.

 

Mac's daughter has commented on that thread as well. The only car it belongs is Mac's '64 GP. Otherwise it needs to go to the Pontiac Transportation Museum.

Interesting story, I had never seen this engine before and it was just something I ran across.

It just happens that a friend of mine just finished putting a Ford SOHC engine together so I figured this would be the Pontiac equivalent kind of.

[Frosty]

I think the only other, perhaps more interesting Pontiac engine is the M/T hemi! Pontiac did develop an experimental hemi but it never saw the light of production. Mickey Thompas however, did develop a hemi head and related parts and sold them!

http://www.wallaceracing.com/hemi-1.html

http://www.pontiacheaven.org/Hemi_page.html

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Frosty

[Andy H]

Still working on wiring and trying to make everything work,had to take the ignition lock apart and clean the contacts, I also cleaned the heater fan switch since it came apart by itself when I took the connector off so we will see if it works haven't tested it yet.

Decided that it would be a good idea to install a new condenser before I put the rest of the front end stuff on so I got a kit from Vintage Air also bought a bracket and newer style compressor at the same time.

They have a newer style ac hoses that are a bit more slim so i think i will se if i can get those to work, there is a local place here that should have those, the idea is also to install a STV valve update kit also to make it a cycling system, going to be interesting to see how this work with the stock evaporator and inside stuff.

Got some gauges, some odd brand that I never heard about before but they where pretty reasonable.

I wanted gauges that looked like these but most of them have a red needle and thought this looked more period correct.

Also some gauges hs there range "off" like the temp having 240f straight up and the voltage should have 12-14v straight up so we'll have to see how they work.

 

[64 kiwi boni]

nice work andy!!!

it is crazy how they used to put so much current  load through the ignition switch aye !! no wonder why the contacts burnt ! 

 i do like how you have tucked the relys behind the battery tray 👍

thats a great hiding place for them, i should do the same on the bonni 

Edited September 6, 2023 by 64 kiwi boni

[Andy H]

8 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

nice work andy!!!

it is crazy how they used to put so much current  load through the ignition switch aye !! no wonder why the contacts burnt ! 

 i do like how you have tucked the relys behind the battery tray 👍

thats a great hiding place for them, i should do the same on the bonni 

Yes I know , relays wasn't used much back then, I got one more for ignition ( coil, choke and p/s pump) tucked up under the fender next to the brake master.

Did you see the big master relay connected to the battery cable? That's a bistable relay so it has dual coils and stays in the last position that you put it with out applying any power to the coils.

[64 kiwi boni]

nice👍

[Andy H]

Got the A/C hoses mocked up now just have to mark them and take them back to get crimped. Now the hose with regular clamps only is gone.

Getting two belts today to see which one will fit.

Still need to get the STV valve delete kit,after that I can charge it up.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Andy H

[64 kiwi boni]

Nice plumbing andy 👍

[Andy H]

Ok, time to get back and write an update.

The A/C thing turned in to quite a project.

First found a belt-that worked good ( thank you Amazon for Free returns) but then it was too close to the radiator hose so I had to go down to the local Napa store  and was able to find one that was curved differently and with with my universal/ adjustable thermostat housing that I had to rotate more to the straight forward position I got that to work but that put the hose to close to the cooling fan blade🙄 so I found this spacer at the auto parts store that o really didn't like but iy kind of worked.

Decided I didn't like the fan spacer so I bribed the machine shop guy at work with some pastries so he made a nicer one but I had to drill the bolt holes which worked out ok.

[Andy H]

Next the ac hoses, the way i had the low side hose from the compressor didn't work out,it was to short to be able to rotate the compressor freely to be able to adjust the belt so after a few back and forth my friend suggested way don't you kick the hose forward and then let it loop back to make it longer

That only took two trips to the ac hose store to exchange fittings before i found some that worked and I liked, so after fitting the hose I took then back to get crimped and i figured that would be included when you buy the fittings WRONG that was another $100 so I think the hoses ended up about $300.

So the car has a STV valve on the evaporator and the diaphragm was toast so I got a upgrade kit that basically eliminates it and turns it in to a cycling clutch system. You basically remove all the guts and install a stainless disc with a new gasket.

Got it all wired up for the compressor, hooked up my gauges and sucked it down for an hour but didn't have time to charge it so it sat for a whole week with the gauges hooked up so next weekend I checked and it still held a vacuum.

Vacuumed for another hour and put in to cans of R134 for now and it blows cold , the low side is only 10 psi so when it gets warmer outside I will have to recheck and probably put in some more.

[64 kiwi boni]

Nice work Andy ! as we know if you can keep those blades nice and close to the circumrance of shroud you will get maximuim pull power from the fan , reducing the air that flicks off the end of each blade ! 

 And i am a big fan  of a factory blade with its nice rounded edges, which make less noise !

[Fitzy]

I like this pic. If I had that gauge at my place, the needle would always point to Retard - to remind me of how I'm going with car resoration.

[Andy H]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:23 PM, 64 kiwi boni said:

Nice work Andy ! as we know if you can keep those blades nice and close to the circumrance of shroud you will get maximuim pull power from the fan , reducing the air that flicks off the end of each blade ! 

 And i am a big fan  of a factory blade with its nice rounded edges, which make less noise !

I know and it's so funny you see these discussions about electric fans be or not to be but if you do the math an electric can never move as much air.

And the blades half way in to the shroud if possible.

7 hours ago, Fitzy said:

I like this pic. If I had that gauge at my place, the needle would always point to Retard - to remind me of how I'm going with car resoration.

Yeah you know I think we all get that feeling sometimes when we don't make much progress or it doesn't move as fast as we think it should sometimes life gets in the way in one way or the other.

Just keep picking away at it I guess.

[64 kiwi boni]

6 hours ago, Andy H said:

eah you know I think we all get that feeling sometimes when we don't make much progress or it doesn't move as fast as we think it should sometimes life gets in the way in one way or the other.

Just keep picking away at it I guess

I  am hearing ya Andy 

i  am hanging out big time to get back into my Pontiac , but other crap keeps getting in the way !! Like this weekend ! Another bloody funeral to go to !!!! Mates kid died suddenly! 

[Andy H]

3 minutes ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

I  am hearing ya Andy 

i  am hanging out big time to get back into my Pontiac , but other crap keeps getting in the way !! Like this weekend ! Another bloody funeral to go to !!!! Mates kid died suddenly! 

That shit will bring you down for sure 😞

[Andy H]

Installing gauges today, last electrical for now then on to the front end of the car.

I'll get back to the Inside later, plenty little stuff left before I can drive the car.

[Andy H]

Got the gauges hooked up except for the light, I'll get to that later.

I have installed a Deutch 4 pin busbar connector on the ACC wire from the ignition switch before and had two empty slots so I figured I could use one for the power to the gauges to make it easier so I wouldn't have to run one more wire out to the engine bay.

We'll didn't exactly go as I had hoped, turns out the voltage from there had a drop of almost one volt, comparing to alternator/ battery, doesn't matter so much for the other stuff that's connected to this but a volt meter won't show the correct voltage.

So when cold it's charging about 14.5v but the gauge reads about a volt less, have to figure out room going to leave it or what.

 

[64 kiwi boni]

2 hours ago, Andy H said:

Got the gauges hooked up except for the light, I'll get to that later.

I have installed a Deutch 4 pin busbar connector on the ACC wire from the ignition switch before and had two empty slots so I figured I could use one for the power to the gauges to make it easier so I wouldn't have to run one more wire out to the engine bay.

We'll didn't exactly go as I had hoped, turns out the voltage from there had a drop of almost one volt, comparing to alternator/ battery, doesn't matter so much for the other stuff that's connected to this but a volt meter won't show the correct voltage.

So when cold it's charging about 14.5v but the gauge reads about a volt less, have to figure out room going to leave it or what.

 

Sounds like your ignition switch has a dirty contact/tab conection  to the acc mate, but that also means possible 1 volt drop to other circuts off thats ignition too !

[Andy H]

53 minutes ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Sounds like your ignition switch has a dirty contact/tab conection  to the acc mate, but that also means possible 1 volt drop to other circuts off thats ignition too !

Yes but I have had the switch appart and cleaned the contacts, if i disconnect the loads from the terminal on the switch i have full voltage.

The power has to come through the firewall stock bulkhead connector also so the best would be to rewire the whole car but that's not happening right now but I think I have a solution it's called a relay 😄 I like relay's.

I have a wire that I ran almost directly from the battery for future modern radio power in to the car so I figured I Will use this one and a relay and control it with the power from the ACC circuit.

[64 kiwi boni]

Hhmmm relays !! I agree , they are perfect for our old cars , taking load of the ignition switch is a great idea 👍

[Andy H]

It's been raining quite a bit, some places apparently got more than 10" of rain so have not gotten much done.

Attended the Grand national roadster show last weekend in Pomona,got lucky that day with no rain.

Gott a little time to install my relay for the voltmeter today and also started on the inside of the hood.

 

Edited February 11 by Andy H

[64 kiwi boni]

18 hours ago, Andy H said:

It's been raining quite a bit, some places apparently got more than 10" of rain so have not gotten much done.

Attended the Grand national roadster show last weekend in Pomona,got lucky that day with no rain.

Gott a little time to install my relay for the voltmeter today and also started on the inside of the hood.

 

fun job !!! 

[Andy H]

7 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

fun job !!! 

Not bad, since i soaked it in citric acid for a week before but some spots didn't get submerged so I got to work on those a bit.

Was thinking of getting some Eastwood rust converter and spray that on first when I'm done sanding like I did on the frame and after that some self etching primer before I paint with Por 15.