Oil roll call. What do you run, and maybe why?

[Ponchoguy]

So my machine shop highly recommended Brad Penn/Penngrade oil. This is the first time I’ve used it. I do not have a problem spending the extra money on good oil. I just thought this would make for a nice topic. I’m sure there are a lot of opinions on this. Stay healthy and let’s hear the stories guys!!!

[JUSTA6]

I've always liked the Castrol 20w-50.

[TWO LANE BLACK TOP]

Valvoline 10-30 in all my street cars...Have always had good luck with it....No oil related issues...Change it every 3000 miles.... Use AC oil filters on all 4 of my GM cars...Motorcraft filters on my Ford vehicles....(93 F-150...97 towncar...05 Ford 500) used a Wix filter last time on my Honda Civic...All with valvoline oil...Use Castrol 20-40 semi synthetic in my 1100 V-Star motorcycle...

[Last Indian]

18 hours ago, Ponchoguy said:

So my machine shop highly recommended Brad Penn/Penngrade oil. This is the first time I’ve used it. I do not have a problem spending the extra money on good oil. I just thought this would make for a nice topic. I’m sure there are a lot of opinions on this. Stay healthy and let’s hear the stories guys!!!

 

1 hour ago, JUSTA6 said:

I've always liked the Castrol 20w-50.

Yes, folks all have their own opinions on what oil to use, what’s best and so on, but at the end of the day most folks don’t really have the knowledge about what makes a good oil or why! That would include your machine shop! As I doubt any of them are chemist or know what the technical numbers mean! So I will try to explain again just from a purely factual point. 

Most of the expense in buying an oil is in the additive package, which for the most part really makes or breaks an oil. Than would come the grade of the crude they use, which has its own impact. Than the blending of the two together can really make or break the final product. Obviously the best oils use top tier crude as well as top tier additives, but different companies tailor their additives packages and this is what sets the best apart. So that might seem simple, but there is one more element, the consumer! He as much as the additive package makes or breaks the final results of the oil! 

An example is if I asked what is the most important element to an engine oil what would most people say? Most of the time, viscosity! That would be wrong! While viscosity is very important it has been documented that an engine can run on 0 viscosity! No I’m not promoting that. I’m just saying it’s not #1. TBN is the number one element in an oil, period! Without the proper TBN your engine would have a very short life. Yet if you run a lower TBN number oil and understand when to change it, that’s acceptable.

So while the PennGrade oil has good specs relatively speaking the ZDDP numbers are quite concerning 1500ppm is to much! Especially when you use it over and over! To much ZDDP cause corrosive wear in all the places you are trying to protect. Anything above 850ppm starts to get iffy. This also why this oil is not approved by the API! 
Where as JustA is using Castrol, this has a lower TBN than the PennGrade but uses sulphated ash as the wear additive, which is actually a better, more controllable additive for this process. It’s also harder to over additize this way and Castrol is using it in the proper dosage. I’m also sure JustA changes his oil at the proper time before TBN vs TAN crossover.

There is a lot more than this to an oil. This just touches on a very small element of an oils makeup and function. Who knew!
 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Last Indian

[64 kiwi boni]

4 hours ago, Last Indian said:

 

Yes, folks all have their own opinions on what oil to use, what’s best and so on, but at the end of the day most folks don’t really have the knowledge about what makes a good oil or why! That would include your machine shop! As I doubt any of them are chemist or know what the technical numbers mean! So I will try to explain again just from a purely factual point. 

Most of the expense in buying an oil is in the additive package, which for the most part really makes or breaks an oil. Than would come the grade of the crude they use, which has its own impact. Than the blending of the two together can really make or break the final product. Obviously the best oils use top tier crude as well as top tier additives, but different companies tailor their additives packages and this is what sets the best apart. So that might seem simple, but there is one more element, the consumer! He as much as the additive package makes or breaks the final results of the oil! 

An example is if I asked what is the most important element to an engine oil what would most people say? Most of the time, viscosity! That would be wrong! While viscosity is very important it has been documented that an engine can run on 0 viscosity! No I’m not promoting that. I’m just saying it’s not #1. TBN is the number one element in an oil, period! Without the proper TBN your engine would have a very short life. Yet if you run a lower TBN number oil and understand when to change it, that’s acceptable.

So while the PennGrade oil has good specs relatively speaking the ZDDP numbers are quite concerning 1500ppm is to much! Especially when you use it over and over! To much ZDDP cause corrosive wear in all the places you are trying to protect. Anything above 850ppm starts to get iffy. This also why this oil is not approved by the API! 
Where as JustA is using Castrol, this has a lower TBN than the PennGrade but uses sulphated ash as the wear additive, which is actually a better, more controllable additive for this process. It’s also harder to over additize this way and Castrol is using it in the proper dosage. I’m also sure JustA changes his oil at the proper time before TBN vs TAN crossover.

There is a lot more than this to an oil. This just touches on a very small element of an oils makeup and function. Who knew!
 

Last Indian, your going to have to explain what is the TBN number  🙄

Edited April 18, 2020 by 64 kiwi boni

[JUSTA6]

56 minutes ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Last Indian, your going to have to explain what is the TBN number  🙄

I'm with ya kiwi boni,  don't know the TBN from the TAN.  Justa always been a fan of Castrol.  The Sunbird and GTO don't see 500 mi a year.  I know oil breaks down with age, so usually change the oil every other year on the Hotrods,  3 to 3500 on the daily drivers.  GM gets AC only filters and the trucks get Motorcraft. 

[65gtotrips]

I forget the exact name, but it’s the ‘Purple’ brand...

[Stewy]

I've been a Mobil 1 (non-extended life) fan for many years. Run the proper weight of it in literally everything I have that has a four-stroke engine (including lawn mowers & snow blowers).

I've gotten flack for it but it doesn't stop me - I still change the oil every 3,000 to 4,000 miles (the type of driving will determine if it's 3k or 4k). Then, roughly every six months, I send a sample of the oil for analysis to Black Stone labs (http://blackstone-labs.com). Below is an excerpt of the report they send back (note that, if I request it, a TBN test - the measurement @Last Indian mentioned above - will be run on the oil I send in)

 

[JUSTA6]

13 hours ago, 65gtotrips said:

I forget the exact name, but it’s the ‘Purple’ brand...

Royal Purple????

[Last Indian]

19 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Last Indian, your going to have to explain what is the TBN number  🙄

 

18 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

I'm with ya kiwi boni,  don't know the TBN from the TAN.  Justa always been a fan of Castrol.  The Sunbird and GTO don't see 500 mi a year.  I know oil breaks down with age, so usually change the oil every other year on the Hotrods,  3 to 3500 on the daily drivers.  GM gets AC only filters and the trucks get Motorcraft. 

Sure, I can do that Kiwi! TBN stands for total base number. This comes minimally from the base stock of oil but mostly from the additive package. This number is actually the measurement of potassium hydroxide per gram of oil. This is as I said actually the single most important piece of chemistry in the oil. This chemistry is what neutralize acid in the oil! TAN total acid number. As acid builds up in the oil due to many things, combustion, oxidation, wear metals, chemistry degradation, etc. acid can result in more acid, the more abrasion that occurs in the engine, the more acid! Basically because the slipperiness of the oil is going away! Even when the film thickness is there it becomes more sandpaper than lubrication. As acid builds up so does varnish/lacquer! Varnish decreases film thickness and actually creates resistance to oil flow, yes really! 

I will try to explain this as clearly as I can. If you take a new oil that has a 8 TBN rating, this is what Castrol GTX 20w50 has, and you run it 1500 to 2000 miles, you should have a reserve of TBN, unless you have a lot of fuel dilution or you been really running hard. So you would not have used all the TBN, but you still don’t know where the TAN is! Let’s just say for whatever reason the TBN is 3.5, but the TAN is 4! That’s a TBN/TAN crossover! That means the oil is more acidic than base, that’s bad! Along with everything else in the engine that is trying to cause wear mechanically, you also now have a chemical corrosion occurring. This type of corrosion can be even worse because it continues even after the engine has stopped for a period of time! If an oil is API approved it means it has enough of the appropriate additives in it for basic use, but it doesn’t address the TBN level or the zinc level! Both are crucial elements! To little TBN and to many hours of operation is bad as explained. Too much ZDDP and again that’s bad and if you run a cat, really not good!
The last 20 years of my career were spent exclusively working on development projects that addressed engine preservation, oil drain extension and high mileage maintenance through chemistry. The single piece that was over and over addressed to accomplish this was the TBN vs TAN. This is clearly not the only thing needed and many other components are likewise very important.
One product we developed was a delayed slow release product that was used to add TBN into the oil over time which kept the TBN level at a elevated level longer. We did testing on a taxi cab fleet in Vegas. These engines had a hundred thousand plus miles on them, they were dirty and varnished up motors. After one year on the product the engines were reinspected. The results were much cleaner engines with such a reduction in the varnish it was striking.

The last thing I would say is the same as I’ve said before! As a general rule if you change your oil at 3000 miles most of the time with today’s oils, you should be good no matter what brand you run. A better choice would be to change it the way I have since I was young, by color! Why color? Color is a basic form of spectroscopy. Different things that take place in the oil under all the variables of an engine effect the color! 

If there is an interest I could expound upon this further, but I really don’t want to bore or carry on and on.
 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Last Indian

[64 kiwi boni]

Gees thank you Last Indian, i have certainly learnt something today 👍

 As i read  your explanation, i thought how can i monitor the tbn/tan ratio... then you answered it....colour of the oil.

thats very much what i look for, i like my engines to have clean looking oil, if its not i swap it out.

 And with most of my fleet they stay clean thanks to bugger all use !

[JUSTA6]

Last Indian, you've explained this topic before and sorry but the technical words N phrases didn't stick.    Comes down to common sense and as you said no matter what brand you run, it needs to be changed regular.  Heat breakdown, blowby past the rings and valve seals on older engines contaminate and breakdown, age is a factor, and coolant leakage as well. It's thankz to guys like you we are where we are now, with these products and overall engine longevity. Todays oil's can't compare with the oil we were running in the 70's.  But then you hear about synthetics that last years and many thousands of miles without needing to be changed.  Sorry by I don't buy that,  and selling at outragious prices per quart.  When gas prices spiked in the late 00's the price on oil went up too. (JUSTA because) Gas came back down, but oil prices never did.  WTF?  Greed, lies.   Be safe and stick to regular oil changes. But thankz for your input buddy.

[Frosty]

Last Indian. I think motor oil is a good topic / thread to start. There are a lot of things/variables we should consider and you might be one to guide us. I think there are a lot of misconceptions and "well that's what I've always bought" mentality out there. No one has actually explained some of the more advanced science behind motor oil such as:.

TBN vs TAB

Viscosity

API 

ZDDP - what is it and why is it important - especially to older cars like our classic cars but not so much to modern cars.

What do the various motor oil weights mean like 0W-50, 10W-30, 20W-30, SAE50, etc and how do they effect engine performance, longevity, and reliability.

When should you use a particular weight oil vs. another?

Edited April 20, 2020 by Frosty

[65gtotrips]

22 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Royal Purple????

Yep...that’s it❗️ I’ve been on a (4) 12 hr work day bender, and my head was fuzzy and couldn’t remember it’s full name...so THANKS 👍 😎 ✅

Edited April 20, 2020 by 65gtotrips

[Last Indian]

19 hours ago, Frosty said:

Last Indian. I think motor oil is a good topic / thread to start. There are a lot of things/variables we should consider and you might be one to guide us. I think there are a lot of misconceptions and "well that's what I've always bought" mentality out there. No one has actually explained some of the more advanced science behind motor oil such as:.

TBN vs TAB

Viscosity

API 

ZDDP - what is it and why is it important - especially to older cars like our classic cars but not so much to modern cars.

What do the various motor oil weights mean like 0W-50, 10W-30, 20W-30, SAE50, etc and how do they effect engine performance, longevity, and reliability.

When should you use a particular weight oil vs. another?

I could do that. I could even give a basic explanation as to how color can be used effectively to know what’s going on in your engines oil as well as your automatic transmissions oil.

[Ponchoguy]

On 4/18/2020 at 1:07 PM, Last Indian said:

 

Yes, folks all have their own opinions on what oil to use, what’s best and so on, but at the end of the day most folks don’t really have the knowledge about what makes a good oil or why! That would include your machine shop! As I doubt any of them are chemist or know what the technical numbers mean! So I will try to explain again just from a purely factual point. 

Most of the expense in buying an oil is in the additive package, which for the most part really makes or breaks an oil. Than would come the grade of the crude they use, which has its own impact. Than the blending of the two together can really make or break the final product. Obviously the best oils use top tier crude as well as top tier additives, but different companies tailor their additives packages and this is what sets the best apart. So that might seem simple, but there is one more element, the consumer! He as much as the additive package makes or breaks the final results of the oil! 

An example is if I asked what is the most important element to an engine oil what would most people say? Most of the time, viscosity! That would be wrong! While viscosity is very important it has been documented that an engine can run on 0 viscosity! No I’m not promoting that. I’m just saying it’s not #1. TBN is the number one element in an oil, period! Without the proper TBN your engine would have a very short life. Yet if you run a lower TBN number oil and understand when to change it, that’s acceptable.

So while the PennGrade oil has good specs relatively speaking the ZDDP numbers are quite concerning 1500ppm is to much! Especially when you use it over and over! To much ZDDP cause corrosive wear in all the places you are trying to protect. Anything above 850ppm starts to get iffy. This also why this oil is not approved by the API! 
Where as JustA is using Castrol, this has a lower TBN than the PennGrade but uses sulphated ash as the wear additive, which is actually a better, more controllable additive for this process. It’s also harder to over additize this way and Castrol is using it in the proper dosage. I’m also sure JustA changes his oil at the proper time before TBN vs TAN crossover.

There is a lot more than this to an oil. This just touches on a very small element of an oils makeup and function. Who knew!
 

Man.. I bet you are the LIFE at parties!! JK .. great info!! I’ve seen my machine shop build engines that spend their time above 10,000 rpm think about that for just a moment. I absolutely appreciate your in put that’s why I started this post.. that being said please don’t try to put down someone’s intelligence when it comes to oils recommendations... I don’t drive a taxi!!! There are countless Doctors prescribing medicine that is NOT FDA approved.. Honestly I absolutely love tour input.. but because the don’t work on taxi cabs does not mean the donknow oil. Side note they also rebuild every engine the get ran at a very famous race track here in town.. so they absolutely see what happens to an engine after a years time of abuse taxi cabs wil NEVER see. That’s exactly why they recommend it. Again no hard feelings  I hope but when throw stones 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️

 

 

[Frosty]

Let me guess - US131 Motorsports Park - the Fastest Track in Michigan?

[Last Indian]

11 hours ago, Ponchoguy said:

Man.. I bet you are the LIFE at parties!! JK .. great info!! I’ve seen my machine shop build engines that spend their time above 10,000 rpm think about that for just a moment. I absolutely appreciate your in put that’s why I started this post.. that being said please don’t try to put down someone’s intelligence when it comes to oils recommendations... I don’t drive a taxi!!! There are countless Doctors prescribing medicine that is NOT FDA approved.. Honestly I absolutely love tour input.. but because the don’t work on taxi cabs does not mean the donknow oil. Side note they also rebuild every engine the get ran at a very famous race track here in town.. so they absolutely see what happens to an engine after a years time of abuse taxi cabs wil NEVER see. That’s exactly why they recommend it. Again no hard feelings  I hope but when throw stones 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️

 

 

No offense taken! But you do realize you never mentioned any of that! Which makes a huge difference! So no stone was thrown by me! You presented the tread as what oil do you use! While you may full out race yours most don’t come close to that and ZDDP at the levels in the oil you use is counterproductive in extend application, normal oil drain. Also you said machine shop! They’re not a machine shop, they’re an engine builder! Huge difference, not even in the same league, different machinery, different approach! I’m not putting them down either, they’re just two different lines of work.
That said if you are using that oil and racing only that’s fine! Because ZDDP is a boundary layer chemistry, presuming you change it after a reasonable number of racing hours, but if you use it for racing and then use it for street and only change the oil like you would if it were street only; then I still stand by what I said, there’s to much ZDDP! Because it is a boundary layer chemistry. 
 

[Ponchoguy]

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

Let me guess - US131 Motorsports Park - the Fastest Track in Michigan?

Berlin

On 4/18/2020 at 1:07 PM, Last Indian said:

 

Yes, folks all have their own opinions on what oil to use, what’s best and so on, but at the end of the day most folks don’t really have the knowledge about what makes a good oil or why! That would include your machine shop!

This is what i meant

 

 

 

[JUSTA6]

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Let me guess - US131 Motorsports Park - the Fastest Track in Michigan?

Anybody get MAVTV?  They have a show called All Out Racing.  Must have spent the entire last year @ Lapeer.  They also pull people from the audience to compete in INSTANT GREEN.  Bet on who wins for cash.  Pretty cool show.  I've heard of Berlin, but have no idea where it's at.

[Last Indian]

2 hours ago, Ponchoguy said:

Yes, folks all have their own opinions on what oil to use, what’s best and so on, but at the end of the day most folks don’t really have the knowledge about what makes a good oil or why! That would include your machine shop!

This is what i meant

Ok, well if that’s what you meant, than I mean what I said, the lack of their knowledge of how Zinc dithiophosphate actually works I would bet on! Very few people outside of the chemical industry know how this chemistry actually works! What they understand is engines internally tend not to fail when it’s used in high performance applications. So they don’t see many if any failures from mechanically wear in those engines they build and it’s used in. So basically it’s called CYA! If you can tell me what they specifically said as to how ZDDP works, chemically, well than I’ll say they understand it, but I doubt that will happen. What I recall I said was the PennGrade wasn’t bad by the oil specs, but the ZDDP was to much. Sorry, it still is for a non race car application!

I worked in the industry for way to long to not know most people don’t understand most chemical additives, especially boundary layer additives.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Last Indian

[Last Indian]

One last thing on the subject, I know the gentleman from my days of dealing with Joe Gibbs Racing, yes NASCAR! You can read through the entire article if you wish, but you can if you wish just scroll down to the underlined paragraph. It will tell you all you really need to know! 
His article is below

——————————————————————————

Of course I've always known that my carefully generated “motor oil wear protection capability data” was completely accurate, but now my data has been validated and backed-up by a total of FOUR other independent Industry sources. They are as follows:

1. Well known and respected Engineer and Tech Author David Vizard, whose own test data, largely based on real world engine dyno testing, has concluded that more zinc in motor oil can be damaging, more zinc does NOT provide today's best wear protection, and that using zinc as the primary anti-wear component, is outdated technology.

2. The GM Oil Report titled, "Oil Myths from GM Techlink", concluded that high levels of zinc are damaging and that more zinc does NOT provide more wear protection.

3. A motor oil research article written by Ed Hackett titled, "More than you ever wanted to know about Motor Oil", concluded that more zinc does NOT provide more wear protection, it only provides longer wear protection.

4. This from the Brad Penn Oil Company:
There is such a thing as too much ZDDP. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a detriment. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive performance. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will “tie-up” detergents thus encouraging corrosive wear. ZDDP effectiveness plateaus, more does NOT translate into more protection. Only so much is utilized. We don’t need to saturate our oil with ZDDP.

Those who are familiar with my test data, know that my test results came up with the exact same results stated by all four of those independent sources. So, this is an example where motor oil “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load” using oil testing equipment, engine dyno testing, Motor Oil Industry testing, and proper motor oil research using only the facts, from a total of five (including my own) independent sources, all converged to agree and come to the same exact conclusion. Back-up validation proof, doesn't get any better than this. 

So, with all those sources in total agreement, that should provide more than enough proof to anyone who questioned my test data, that my data is absolutely correct. And that questioning any one of those sources, questions them all, and questions Physics and Chemistry that determined all those identical results. And no sensible person would try to argue against Physics and Chemistry. Because that is a battle no man can win.

**************************

Now, getting to the purpose of this write-up, a NASCAR engine supplier out of North Carolina, was so impressed with the motor oil “Wear Protection Capability Testing” I perform, that they sent me 3 NASCAR Racing Oils they use, for testing. I considered that quite an endorsement, that these guys valued my testing efforts enough to include me, in some of what they do. They have been seeing some wear issues, and wanted to see if I could shed any light on that by testing their oil. They came to the right place.

The NASCAR oils they sent me were:

0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil (this was out of a 55 gallon drum)

0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil (this was out of a normal quart bottle)

0W50 Mobil 1 Racing Oil (this was out of a 55 gallon drum)

In addition to performing my normal “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load”, I also sent all 3 oils to the Professional Lab, ALS Tribology in Sparks, Nevada for them to perform component quantity and viscosity testing. The test results from the lab are:

0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil synthetic (lab tested 2013)
Silicon = 7 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)

Boron = 74 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Magnesium = 14 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Calcium = 1938 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Zinc = 1952 ppm (anti-wear)

Phos = 1671 ppm (anti-wear)

Moly = 1743 ppm (anti-wear)

Potassium = 4 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

Sodium = 1 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

TBN = 8.2 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9) 

Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 6.1, and cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.

0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil synthetic (lab tested 2013)
Silicon = 17 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)

Boron = 67 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Magnesium = 13 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Calcium = 1823 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Barium = 10 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Zinc = 1693 ppm (anti-wear)

Phos = 1667 ppm (anti-wear)

Moly = 1326 ppm (anti-wear)

Potassium = 4 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

Sodium = 1 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

TBN = 8.0 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9)

Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.3 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.

0W50 Mobil 1 Racing Oil synthetic (lab tested 2013)
Silicon = 8 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)

Boron = 74 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Magnesium = 212 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Calcium = 1694 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Zinc = 1676 ppm (anti-wear)

Phos = 1637 ppm (anti-wear)

Moly = 1263 ppm (anti-wear)

Potassium = 4 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

TBN = 8.4 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9) 

Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 17.6, cSt range for SAE 50 is 16.3 to 21.8, and cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.

*****************************

After I performed my “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load”, you can see below how those 3 NASCAR oils ranked regarding “Wear Protection Capability”, just among other Mobil 1 oils I’ve tested, as well as among other oils I’ve tested that had “Racing Oil” in their name. And they are all ranked in the order of their “Wear Protection Capability” values.

Wear protection reference categories are: 

• Over 90,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection

• 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection

• 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection

• Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection

The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the Wear Protection.

1. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only synthetic = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phosphorus = 3489 ppm
moly = 1764 ppm
calcium = 2,929 ppm

2. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic, street oil = 105,875 psi
zinc = 801 ppm
phosphorus = 842 ppm
moly = 112 ppm
calcium = 799 ppm

3. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi 
zinc = 1669 ppm
phosphorus = 1518 ppm
moly = 784 ppm
calcium = 1,607 ppm

4. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi 
zinc = 1472 ppm
phosphorus = 1544 ppm
moly = 3 ppm
calcium = 2,707 ppm

5. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi 
zinc = 1180 ppm
phosphorus = 1112 ppm
moly = 162 ppm
calcium = 2,664 ppm

6. 10W30 Amsoil Dominator Racing Oil synthetic = 97,118 psi
zinc = 1613 ppm
phos = 1394 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

7. 30 wt Red Line Race Oil synthetic = 96,470 psi
zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm
moly = 1235 ppm

8. 0W20 Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy, API SN synthetic, street oil = 96,364 psi
zinc = 742 ppm
phos = 677 ppm
moly = 81 ppm

9. 10W30 Joe Gibbs XP3 NASCAR Racing Oil synthetic = 95,543 psi 
zinc = 743 ppm
phos = 802 ppm
moly = 1125 ppm

10. 5W30 Maxima RS530 Synthetic Racing Oil = 91,162 psi
zinc = 2162 ppm
phos = 2294 ppm
moly = 181 ppm

11. 20W50 LAT Synthetic Racing Oil, API SM = 87,930 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

12. 5W30 Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15,000 mile, API SN synthetic, street oil = 83,263 psi
zinc = 890 ppm
phos = 819 ppm
moly = 104 ppm

13. 5W30 LAT Synthetic Racing Oil, API SM = 81,800 psi
zinc = 1784 ppm
phos = 1539 ppm
moly = 598 ppm

14. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) synthetic = 74,860 psi 
zinc = 1421 ppm
phos = 1338 ppm
moly = 204 ppm

15. 0W50 Mobil 1 Racing Oil = 73,811 psi
zinc = 1676 ppm
phos = 1637 ppm
moly = 1263 ppm
Onset of thermal breakdown = 270*F

16. 0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil = 71,923 psi
zinc = 1693 ppm
phos = 1667 ppm
moly = 1326 ppm
Onset of thermal breakdown = 280*F

17. 15W50 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic, street oil = 70,235 psi
zinc = 1,133 ppm
phos = 1,168 ppm
moly = 83 ppm

18. 5W30 Klotz Estorlin Racing Oil, API SL synthetic = 64,175 psi
zinc = 1765 ppm
phos = 2468 ppm
moly = 339 ppm

19. 0W20 Klotz Estorlin Racing Oil, API SL synthetic = 60,941 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

20. 10W40 Torco TR-1 Racing Oil with MPZ conventional = 59,905 psi
zinc = 1456 ppm
phos = 1150 ppm
moly = 227 ppm

21. 10W40 Summit Racing Premium Racing Oil, API SL = 59,483 psi
This oil is made for Summit by I.L.C.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
NOTE: This oil line was discontinued in Spring 2013.

22. 0W20 LAT Synthetic Racing Oil, API SM = 57,228 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

23. 0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil = 55,080 psi
zinc = 1952 ppm
phos = 1671 ppm
moly = 1743 ppm
Onset of thermal breakdown = 210*F, which was confirmed by repeated tests. This is the WORST/LOWEST onset of thermal breakdown point I’ve ever seen. So, this oil is STARTING TO FAIL even before getting hot enough to quickly boil off normal water condensation. And this is on top of its very poor wear protection capability. Mobil should be embarrassed to even offer this oil for sale.

So, as you can see, these Mobil 1 Racing Oils were poorly ranked at 15th, 16th and 23rd, out of these 23 oils above.

And if you look at my “Wear Protection Ranking List” of all 104 oils I’ve tested so far, you’ll see they rank 65th, 72nd and 99th.

The wind-up is that the 0W50 Mobil 1 Racing Oil and the 0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil only provide MODEST wear protection, while the 0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil only provides UNDESIRABLE wear protection. So, it is quite clear that these modest/poor performing motor oils are NOT a good choice for NASCAR small block endurance engines that make around 900HP, rev between 9,000 and 10,000 rpm, and do that for hundreds of miles. For applications like this, choosing an oil is just as important as choosing the engine components.

All 3 of these oils might look good on paper for wear protection, since the zinc, phos and moly are all substantial. However, this is yet another example of how looking at a Lab Test Print Out of an oil’s component quantities, shows you absolutely nothing regarding how well it can protect against wear. The ONLY way to determine the FACTS as to how well an oil can protect against wear, is to perform “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load”, which is precisely why I test oil that way. 

You don’t just rely on an engine’s build sheet to guess its power/torque characteristics. You dyno test it and track test it, to find out how it really performs in operation. It’s the same thing with testing motor oil. You don’t just rely on an oil’s Lab Test Print Out, you need to test it dynamically at a representative operational temperature to find out what its wear protection capabilities really are.

The wear issues this NASCAR engine supplier was experiencing with these oils, is exactly what you would expect by looking at my “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load” test results, which showed that the oils were severely lacking in wear protection capability. Unfortunately, they had no way of knowing this before they started using these oils. But, if I had tested these oils BEFORE they started using them, I could have saved them time, money and grief.

An oil’s ability to protect against wear, is determined by its base oil and its additive package “as a whole”, NOT just by how much zinc is present. Using zinc as the primary anti-wear component, is outdated technology. The idea that you need a high level of zinc for a high level of wear protection, is simply an old MYTH that has been BUSTED. Many of today’s anti-wear components (they are often proprietary in nature, and are not specifically tested for, in a basic Lab Test) are not only equal to zinc, but they are BETTER than zinc.

Until I started performing Tribology Research, and setup my motor oil “Wear Protection Capability Ranking List”, there was no good way to know which oils provided good wear protection, and which oils didn’t. Previously, all we could do was guess, or use trial and error to determine which oil was good enough, and which oil was not. And even then, we had no way of knowing how various “good enough” oils compared among themselves. But now, we have documented wear test data available. So, all we have to do is look at the Ranking List, and choose an oil that provides the wear protection we are comfortable with for any given build. This is the 21st Century, and we no longer have to guess or use trial and error to decide on which oil to use.

Also, engines are best served by using oils that have excellent wear protection capability (no matter how much zinc is in them) during Break-In. If folks use these superior oils, and avoid traditional high zinc, low wear protection capability Break-In oils and avoid aftermarket zinc additives which actually REDUCE an oil’s wear protection capability, worries about flat tappet Break-In procedures could become a thing of the past.

The “Wear Protection” test data here DIRECTLY APPLIES to flat tappet lobe/lifter interfaces (no matter how wicked the engine), distributor gear/cam gear interfaces, mechanical fuel pump pushrod tip/cam eccentric interfaces, and all highly loaded engine interfaces.

BOTTOM LINE:
I have no doubt that this Professional NASCAR engine supplier is using good quality engine components, and that they are building their engines well, so all they need to do is select better oils, and their wear issues will go away. Fortunately, there are many, many far better oils available for them to choose from. Even 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic street oil, that is available at any Auto Parts Store, provides a whopping 47% MORE WEAR PROTECTION than the 0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil. 

Of course, there can be friction reduction capability differences between street oil and Racing Oil. And keep in mind, that friction reduction and wear protection are two entirely different things, and often do not go hand in hand. If a particular Racing Oil does provide reduced friction, that can increase HP. But, you still have to finish, and you have to run strong to win. So, no matter what, your oil has to provide adequate wear protection to get the job done.

If I were choosing the oils for this NASCAR endurance engine application, as an Engineer, I’d only select oils from the OUTSTANDING wear protection category, which means oils that produce at least 90,000 psi capability in my testing. Any oil in that category would provide sufficient margin of safety to prevent any further wear issues.
 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Last Indian

[indymanjoe]

I use royal purple because of the scuff test i seen a couple years ago. Cant find the article right now. But i change the Lemans oil 2x's a yr while driving (more if racing)  then once for the winter. Wix filter as well. Great info as always Last Indian.

I went right to the underline part so i missed the test part LOL

And there ya go you posted the results i was referring too...for the money i like RP

Edited April 21, 2020 by indymanjoe
I'm a dumbass

[Last Indian]

54 minutes ago, indymanjoe said:

I use royal purple because of the scuff test i seen a couple years ago. Cant find the article right now. But i change the Lemans oil 2x's a yr while driving (more if racing)  then once for the winter. Wix filter as well. Great info as always Last Indian.

I went right to the underline part so i missed the test part LOL

And there ya go you posted the results i was referring too...for the money i like RP

What’s really interesting here Joe is the Joe Gibbs Racing oil! Look at the ppm of zinc (ZDDP) yet look at the psi number! This oil is one of the oils we worked on with him back in the. It has our additive package in it. This zinc level is so low you could easily run this for the street! No problem!

[JUSTA6]

Lookin back, it's amazing how brand Loyal we were on everything. (and many of us still are) The win on Sunday = sales on Monday generation.  From the Big 3 car manufacturers to every sticker/sponsor on our favorite racers. You can't say racing in any form without thinkin Valvoline,  Penzzoil, Castrol, STP   on the tip of your tongue as you walked into the auto parts store.  But these were competing with your favorite/trusted gas stations, Mobil, Shell, Texaco, Exxon, Sinclair oil companys to name a few for your oil needs.   Other than Mobil, where do the rest of the oil brands blend into the list?  Did they not score high enough?  Or simply too many to list?  I was going to make a joke about not going through the BS of sending in a stool sample of my oil for analysis, but apparently Stewy does. " Very cool " if that's what your in to. At what point does average Joe say this is what I've always trusted and it's never let me down.   As I said before Last Indian, where would we be without all the countless hours, testing, tuning and producing the highest quality products available, that you and many others have the knowledge and have worked to expose what is truly THE BEST.    40yrs ago an engine with 100,000 on it was junk.   Today it's Justa well broken in, with 200,000 as the new bench mark.

Salute