Pontiac Magazine?

[07LY7]

Hey, doesn't anybody know if the Pontaic Performance magazine is still being published? Are there any other GM / Pontiac specific magazines anybody knows of? I'm looking for one that might be interested in doing an article on the efforts of becoming the first ever 13 second G6. Thanks!

[Frosty]

There are two Pontiac specific magazines that I know of:

1. High Performance Pontiac

2. Pontiac Enthsuiast

Another non-Pontiac specific title is GM High Tech Performance. It features mostly Corvette, Firebird, Camaro, GTO, and G8 articles. Still they have done a few FWD projects as well - like tweaking the supercharger on a Grand Prix with a Gen III 3800.

[Ghost]

...I'm looking for one that might be interested in doing an article on the efforts of becoming the first ever 13 second G6. Thanks!

do it! and ask all of them.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

There are two Pontiac specific magazines that I know of:

1. High Performance Pontiac

2. Pontiac Enthsuiast

I'm not too sure to be 100% honest. They focus on mainly V8 performance. And if it isn't, I've only seen L67 powered cars grace their pages, a GTP and a Fiero.

What I would say, is bring their attention to us! I betcha they wouldn't mind mentioning us, or better yet, we could work out an advertising deal of some sort. We rock their banner/link here to increase interest, and they could have a banner/link on their page to bring forth new members. We could get a lot of attention, and a big boost in membership!

[07LY7]

Thanks guys. I am getting in touch with the editor of Pontiac Enthusiast and I'll report back to let you know if we make any progress.

[Jedi3]

how do you plan on get to the 13 sec mark?

[07LY7]

how do you plan on get to the 13 sec mark?

Well, I've already run several 14.3's and one potentially 14.21 (combined best launch that night with best run) on stock tires and that was at a density altitude of 1700.

Best way to hit 13's will be sticky tires, like the Dunlop Star Spec Z's, and a nice cool, dry night to bring my DA down. Using the time calculator on dragtimes.com, I've already run one 13 and several 14.0x.

I also am working with a guy to build a custom intake manifold and do some head modifications (not just a p&p).

I'm close. Very close. Now I just need to put it all together and make it happen.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Check out 60inclusive. Talk with John, the owner. He's ALWAYS tinkering with these 60*V6 motors, he might be able to either help you out with some ported heads, or better yet, headers. I know the LY7 is DOHC, but this guy also tinkers with BMW engines.

[07LY7]

' date='May 5 2010, 10:27 AM' post='23588']

Check out 60inclusive. Talk with John, the owner. He's ALWAYS tinkering with these 60*V6 motors, he might be able to either help you out with some ported heads, or better yet, headers. I know the LY7 is DOHC, but this guy also tinkers with BMW engines.

I've already got full headers. I organized the project to get them done. As for ported heads, we're still doing research to find out if that really helps or not. A lot of flow dynamics to consider. But thanks for the contact, I'll be sure to get a hold of him and see if he's interested in joining the team!!

[[ChaosweaveR]]

I've already got full headers. I organized the project to get them done. As for ported heads, we're still doing research to find out if that really helps or not. A lot of flow dynamics to consider. But thanks for the contact, I'll be sure to get a hold of him and see if he's interested in joining the team!!

John is already signed up to FullThrottleV6.com and 60degreeV6.com, his SN is Forced_Firebird, if you want to contact him that way. He does a lot of 60*V6 work for F-bodies and L-bodies (Berettas) but he's a helluva fabricator. I chat with him often on those two sites, IIRC, he is aware of our site here. But he's never signed up yet.

[07LY7]

John is already signed up to FullThrottleV6.com and 60degreeV6.com, his SN is Forced_Firebird, if you want to contact him that way. He does a lot of 60*V6 work for F-bodies and L-bodies (Berettas) but he's a helluva fabricator. I chat with him often on those two sites, IIRC, he is aware of our site here. But he's never signed up yet.

Awesome, thanks!

[AaronGTR]

I still see pontiac high performance and GM high tech performance in the book store magazine stands sometimes. Flip through them occasionally to ogel the F-bodies and 'vettes but they never feature much else besides those and older v8 muscle cars. Want to see a tech article or car feature on a V6 fwd or a GM 4cyl? Forget it... all you'll ever see, and rarely at that, is something on the grand prix GTP. And most of those articles I used to see where submitted by Chris White, who last I checked sold his GTP long ago and had a new GTO.

[07LY7]

I still see pontiac high performance and GM high tech performance in the book store magazine stands sometimes. Flip through them occasionally to ogel the F-bodies and 'vettes but they never feature much else besides those and older v8 muscle cars. Want to see a tech article or car feature on a V6 fwd or a GM 4cyl? Forget it... all you'll ever see, and rarely at that, is something on the grand prix GTP. And most of those articles I used to see where submitted by Chris White, who last I checked sold his GTP long ago and had a new GTO.

Well, either way, we've started the new website and already gaining some very qualified resources helping out. I also received word from Performance Pontiac that if I can get this thing to 13's naturally, they'd be interested in doing an article on it. So, we're making progress!

[Ghost]

do it!!! and hurry.

[WarShrike]

Best of luck. Doing 13's NA with a FWD car and on a stock internal setup is a big chore. Got any weight reduction going on?

I'm shooting for 13's whenever I get this bloody car tuned. School and work have been eating my time lately.

I've had my intake and heads done by John at 60*Inclusive, does some great work.

I honestly would love to see more V6 coverage. There was a guy with Camaro Performance mag or whatever that did a V6 project but would not listen to the input from the V6 community and went about doing things the wrong way or did mods with out a whole lot of research and who would toss them freebies...

Keep us posted.

[07LY7]

Best of luck. Doing 13's NA with a FWD car and on a stock internal setup is a big chore. Got any weight reduction going on?

I'm shooting for 13's whenever I get this bloody car tuned. School and work have been eating my time lately.

I've had my intake and heads done by John at 60*Inclusive, does some great work.

I honestly would love to see more V6 coverage. There was a guy with Camaro Performance mag or whatever that did a V6 project but would not listen to the input from the V6 community and went about doing things the wrong way or did mods with out a whole lot of research and who would toss them freebies...

Keep us posted.

Yes, 13's will be tough, BUT, I'm down to a 14.21 with all season street tires and the fastest I can get my 60' down to is 2.1 due to loss of traction if I pre-load anything higher than about 2,500 rpm. If I could get a set of Dunlop Star Spec's I'd be able to lower that by at least a .1 to .15 and be VERY close to 13's. My other problem is, we've determined she's out of fuel injector. With a 20% drive train loss, we're already looking at around 90% duration on these injectors. If you calculate a 25% drive train loss, which isn't unreasonable, I'm at 98 - 99% duration and thus, out of injector.

We have a guy that has ported the UIM and heads as well as underdrive pully, headers, etc and it's getting put back together this week. We'll know shortly there after if the stock fuel system is maxed out or not. Either way, we'll keep you posted.

[Mariachi]

good luck on the 13's bud. Yeah i haven't seen one GM mag look at any v6's before. just the v8's. im pretty sure there is a mag out there thought that will be into the smaller performance motors. i might just do some research myself.

[AaronGTR]

Yes, 13's will be tough, BUT, I'm down to a 14.21 with all season street tires and the fastest I can get my 60' down to is 2.1 due to loss of traction if I pre-load anything higher than about 2,500 rpm. If I could get a set of Dunlop Star Spec's I'd be able to lower that by at least a .1 to .15 and be VERY close to 13's. My other problem is, we've determined she's out of fuel injector. With a 20% drive train loss, we're already looking at around 90% duration on these injectors. If you calculate a 25% drive train loss, which isn't unreasonable, I'm at 98 - 99% duration and thus, out of injector.

We have a guy that has ported the UIM and heads as well as underdrive pully, headers, etc and it's getting put back together this week. We'll know shortly there after if the stock fuel system is maxed out or not. Either way, we'll keep you posted.

It shouldn't be that hard. There was a guy from Canada on the gagt.com forum who ran a 13.9 with a NA 3400. He had heads/cam/headers, larger injectors, tuned pcm, and was using drag radials I believe. You are starting out with an engine with much higher stock HP so I think it is definitely do-able. Just need a good launch and enough power.

Just curious, have you dyno'd the car in stock form to find the difference between the factory rated HP and actual WHP? I have found on the GA and several other GM fwd automatics that drivetrain loss was closer to 18%. Regardless, I don't know why you are quoting drivetrain loss for injector duration? Power lost through the transmission has nothing to do with injector pulse. You need to actually scan your computer to see what the injector pulse is. If you know what the injector flow rate is and your actual fuel pressure you can figure out how much HP they should support at max duty cycle. There are some good formula's here for injector sizing. rc engineering

Whether they are actually maxed out or not depends on several things like flow rate, max duty cycle, pulse width, and how high rpm you are running. Typically 80% is max unless you switch to a disc type injector, and once you start seeing injector pulses of 26ms or higher you should start thinking of larger injectors. Most stock injectors are pintle type and won't go over 80% duty cycle. Once you hit 90-95% they are locked open.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Pontiac Enthusiast is very picky. I submitted for their reader's rides section, and they didn't even e-mail be back.

I wish they would stop overlooking cars without a V8.

[07LY7]

It shouldn't be that hard. There was a guy from Canada on the gagt.com forum who ran a 13.9 with a NA 3400. He had heads/cam/headers, larger injectors, tuned pcm, and was using drag radials I believe. You are starting out with an engine with much higher stock HP so I think it is definitely do-able. Just need a good launch and enough power.

Just curious, have you dyno'd the car in stock form to find the difference between the factory rated HP and actual WHP? I have found on the GA and several other GM fwd automatics that drivetrain loss was closer to 18%. Regardless, I don't know why you are quoting drivetrain loss for injector duration? Power lost through the transmission has nothing to do with injector pulse. You need to actually scan your computer to see what the injector pulse is. If you know what the injector flow rate is and your actual fuel pressure you can figure out how much HP they should support at max duty cycle. There are some good formula's here for injector sizing. rc engineering

Whether they are actually maxed out or not depends on several things like flow rate, max duty cycle, pulse width, and how high rpm you are running. Typically 80% is max unless you switch to a disc type injector, and once you start seeing injector pulses of 26ms or higher you should start thinking of larger injectors. Most stock injectors are pintle type and won't go over 80% duty cycle. Once you hit 90-95% they are locked open.

He said it would be difficult without changing some of the internals. So yeah, with cams/heads/injectors AND drag radials, I would fully expect this platform to be in the mid to upper 13's. I never dyno'd mine stock, but another guy with the LY7 did and he was around 26% drive train loss. The reason I'm quoting drive train loss when referring to injector duration is because horsepower calculations based on injector flow, duration and psi , calculates HP at the crank not at the wheel. So you need to be able to translate your whp to crank hp by considering the drive train loss to see if your duration is really maxed out or not.

As in my example, I know I'm running 223 whp. Depending on if that calculates into a 20% loss or a 25% loss determines if I'm at 275 crank or 297 crank. This directly impact the needed flow rate the injectors need to have. As it seems you know, since I know flow rate, psi, etc, I can estimate my crank hp but can't verify I'm out of duration unless I know the drive train loss.

I've been running over these calculators for damn near 3 months now. It's really boiled down to what my drive train loss is because, like I said before, if I'm at near 25% dtl, then I've maxed out these injectors due to duration being arond 98 - 99%. If I'm only at 20%, I should still, theoretically have a little duration left before I need to upgrade. We'll know this week if my hypothesis is correct or not.

' date='Jul 18 2010, 10:15 PM' post='33097']

Pontiac Enthusiast is very picky. I submitted for their reader's rides section, and they didn't even e-mail be back.

I wish they would stop overlooking cars without a V8.

Yeah, I hear ya. It took Performance Pontiac damn near 10 weeks to get back to me and it was with a "MAYBE if I hit 13's" response. Really though, that's all I need so I can write into Dunlop and tell them I've got advertising space should they provide me with the tires that get me to 13's

[AaronGTR]

Well, I HIGHLY doubt you are over 20% drivetrain loss. Most newer transmission are getting more and more efficient, not the other way around. 20% is pretty standard for a FWD automatic or a RWD manual. 15% for a FWD manual. 25% is usually 4WD territory.

oh, and btw yes using HP calculations is a good way to try and determine if your current injectors are maxed and how big of an upgrade you would need based on how much HP those injectors are supposed to support... but it's still not the most accurate way. I still think you need to see the actual pulse width. I was running 8psi of boost and making 235whp on my STOCK 22.5 lb/hr injectors... pulse width in the 26-28ms range at redline so they were very close to maxed out but hadn't locked open yet and wasn't getting any KR either amazingly...

... and according the the calculations on RC engineering I wasn't supposed to be able to make that much power with those size injectors. Even playing around with different BSFC's since I don't know the true volumetric efficiency with the blower, it still said I was over 90% duty cycle and shouldn't have been making that much power. That was counting flow change for fuel pressure increase as well. Anyway my point is nothing beats scanning. No guessing as to what it's doing. And having an injector with at least 30% more flow than needed is a good idea.

[07LY7]

Yeah, I just asked my tuners what my pulse width is, so I hopefully I'll be able to calculate my duration %tage soon. I do know that the one guy that dyno'd stock did have a higher than 20% dt loss, but who know with mine

235 whp does sound like a lot for those injectors. Even at 60 psi and using a BSFC of .6 (since you're turbo'd), you'd still need at least 25 lb injectors to get those kinds of numbers...and that's running static duration.

Hopefully my tuners will be able to tell me my pulse width is. They whole heartedly believe I'm not out of fuel, but they are used to tuning v8's and are stuck in that paradox of making 400 crank hp using 24 lb injectors on an LS1. So they assume 23.6 lb injectors should be more than able to make 315 crank hp...but the numbers just aren't there.

My main problem is we have had 3 separate guys, with three separate setups ALL max out betwen 221 - 223 whp. NOBODY has made more and we're talking p&p's, headers, custom dyno tunes, etc, etc. Hopefully by the end of this week my friends engine rebuild will tell us. Fact is, we just don't have enough data yet.

Well, I HIGHLY doubt you are over 20% drivetrain loss. Most newer transmission are getting more and more efficient, not the other way around. 20% is pretty standard for a FWD automatic or a RWD manual. 15% for a FWD manual. 25% is usually 4WD territory.

oh, and btw yes using HP calculations is a good way to try and determine if your current injectors are maxed and how big of an upgrade you would need based on how much HP those injectors are supposed to support... but it's still not the most accurate way. I still think you need to see the actual pulse width. I was running 8psi of boost and making 235whp on my STOCK 22.5 lb/hr injectors... pulse width in the 26-28ms range at redline so they were very close to maxed out but hadn't locked open yet and wasn't getting any KR either amazingly...

... and according the the calculations on RC engineering I wasn't supposed to be able to make that much power with those size injectors. Even playing around with different BSFC's since I don't know the true volumetric efficiency with the blower, it still said I was over 90% duty cycle and shouldn't have been making that much power. That was counting flow change for fuel pressure increase as well. Anyway my point is nothing beats scanning. No guessing as to what it's doing. And having an injector with at least 30% more flow than needed is a good idea.

[Mariachi]

i do have to agree with AaronGTR with the DT loss %'s on FWD's. I have owned several FWD cars and from my experience, the loss is at its highest 18%. I also had an AWD and the DT loss on that was about 24%. these are from the tuners that I have had work done. I wish i still had everything (papers and what not) for those cars but so much moving and i lost a lot of stuff. but all my cars were DSM's. nothing pontiac. sorry

ill eventually get some numbers on the vibe soon to be able to tell the difference.

[07LY7]

i do have to agree with AaronGTR with the DT loss %'s on FWD's. I have owned several FWD cars and from my experience, the loss is at its highest 18%. I also had an AWD and the DT loss on that was about 24%. these are from the tuners that I have had work done. I wish i still had everything (papers and what not) for those cars but so much moving and i lost a lot of stuff. but all my cars were DSM's. nothing pontiac. sorry

ill eventually get some numbers on the vibe soon to be able to tell the difference.

Generally, I would tend to agree, but the dyno my friend uses for his LY7 saturn gave him 194.8 whp. Now, at 252 hp SAE , that's a 23% drive train loss.

It's all guess work thought unless you've yanked the engine out of the car and crank dyno'd it. What can ya do...

[AaronGTR]

There are a lot of variables too. Could have been the type of dyno he was using. Could have been elevation or weather conditions on the day he dyno'd... some shops correct for that and some don't, and they don't all do it the same. What I'm going off is info from multiple dyno tests of stock and modified 3400 cars, mostly using the same type of dyno (dynojet), so that gives me a little better reference.

Like you said, there just isn't enough data out there, and I totally understand that. It always more difficult modifying a less popular platform and breaking new ground.