So somebody stole my whole suspension system!😱

[Last Indian]

This is just wrong!

Edited December 9, 2021 by Last Indian

[JUSTA6]

Say what?    You must not use the same shotgun on a tripwire garage security system I do.

[64 kiwi boni]

Last Indian !!! thats bloody awful !!! the car was in your garage ???

extremely odd that they also cable tied the drive shaft up too !!!! AND put ply wood under the jack stands to protect the flooring

i bet you could get some finger prints off that number 8 wire hook they used to hold up the brake caliper!!!

 very thoughtful of them to put the nuts back on the tie rod end and tca

Edited December 9, 2021 by 64 kiwi boni

[Fitzy]

Bloody hell - what sort of prick does such a thing? More to the point, WHY would they? For the amount of effort & risk, they would have been far better off just getting their own. Are you gonna report it, ask for fingerprints, etc? Once they catch them, you & JustA can go visit them. Sounds like someone needs a little extra lead in their diet. This sort of shit makes me sick. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

[TWO LANE BLACK TOP]

Man.. That's Fucked up..

Well at least the scumbags didn't hack the rest of the car...With a sawzall/Cutting torch..ETC..

Hopefully if they are putting the components in another car it will slip off the stands/lift and crush their low life asses to death....

Edited December 9, 2021 by TWO LANE BLACK TOP

[Frosty]

So when did this happen Last Indian? What all was taken? Front and rear suspension ? Just the front? Wheel and tires too? What have the cops said to you? This really sucks. They must have had a lot of time to do this thorough a job too. Like Two Lane said, no torch or sawsall marks. No hack job here.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Frosty

[JUSTA6]

As Kiwi said...too nicely done.  My bet,  we will see new tube A arms.    The wife tore it out and replacing for Christmas... for all his work on the house this year.   Whatta girl !!!!!

Edited December 9, 2021 by JUSTA6

[Frosty]

Perhaps he removed it himself....I think this was an episode of Columbo or Banacek. 

[Wrongway]

Wow man, I'm blown away! I hate that this happened to you bro. It doesn't surprise me that some asshole would steal from you. Nowadays they seem to steal anything they can. BUT... the way they tied everything up and took such care is crazy. Hate to say it but it almost has to be another car guy, which makes it even worse!

[JUSTA6]

3 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Wow man, I'm blown away! I hate that this happened to you bro. It doesn't surprise me that some asshole would steal from you. Nowadays they seem to steal anything they can. BUT... the way they tied everything up and took such care is crazy. Hate to say it but it almost has to be another car guy, which makes it even worse!

Bout time you checked in wrongway.....been awhile.

[Last Indian]

Ok,Ok so Frosty found me out! I thought maybe the insurance guy would by it and foot the bill for new pieces parts! No such luck! 
I got to tell you pulling this suspension was a lesson on stupidity! The Lacrosses are nice cars drive great and handle well, but you talk about a bunch of ridiculous over done components with multiple weak links that basically negated  any benefit that’s what was here. Wow! And very pricey to replace as well.

[Wrongway]

Yes sir Justa you are correct. Been dealing with some family things buddy. Gonna try to be on more.

[JUSTA6]

13 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Yes sir Justa you are correct. Been dealing with some family things buddy. Gonna try to be on more.

Hope things straighten up for the holidays buddy.

[Last Indian]

6 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Hope things straighten up for the holidays buddy.

 

20 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Yes sir Justa you are correct. Been dealing with some family things buddy. Gonna try to be on more.

Dido from me Wrongway!

 

The reason for posting is to give some information on some of the newer dilemmas that arise with more recent cars, since we don’t have new Pontiac’s to compare anything to.

Some may be interested in this and some may think here we go again, but stupidity that I have to pay for irritates me. Especially when these are engineers that if they don’t know better should have been relieved of duty and if they do know better shame on them and the corporation that employs them.

I believe most if not all are aware that unsprung weight is far and away the major culprit in underperforming suspensions and in the car in general! Likewise rotating mass always needs to have a high place in consideration for its weight control! Well obviously I can only speak for what I have physically seen and more importantly worked on in recent years, but I would be willing to bet this has become more of the norm in new generation cars than not.

As I already stated the Lacrosse is a very nice car by today’s standards, but oh it could be so much better! My wife’s “13” Lacrosse has only 16,000 miles on it. But a recent recall of all those platformed cars for a link rod defect of the electroplated paint made me see what condition my “12” & “13” were in! So a quick look under it this past spring said two things. The undercarriage was immaculate, but the underpinnings were less than desirable for me. So with the exterior redo of the house ahead of me I decided a winter project for her car would be the plan. So here I’am a month after starting and I can tell you that the suspension of the Indian is far and away a more pragmatic, better engineered, straightforward & better performing suspension and not even half the weight of the Lacrosse, literally! With none of the down side of the Lacrosse suspension. 

I started with my wife’s because having seen in the past what these suspensions consisted of I knew I would ultimately modify components for mine. The plan was to by new parts for hers and keep hers stock, but I would gut the entire front & rear suspension, including subframes. Clean, sand & paint with my Hammerite glass impregnated paint, which is pretty much impervious to nearly everything. It was during this tear down that I realized just how over the top damn heavy these components where. I knew the brakes rotors were heavy, but this was ridiculous. To further add insult to injury the rod link recall had nothing to do with the electro plate painting! The problem lies with the frame side bolt that is used for alignment on this part. It literally corrodes inside the sleeve bushing. So no adjustment can be made, you can’t get the bolt out by any method other that to cut it out! This in the process causes undo strain on the flimsy link rod which can cause a failure. Which means this is like losing a front tie rod! That would not be pretty! 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Last Indian

[64 kiwi boni]

7 hours ago, Last Indian said:

 

Dido from me Wrongway!

 

The reason for posting is to give some information on some of the newer dilemmas that arise with more recent cars, since we don’t have new Pontiac’s to compare anything to.

Some may be interested in this and some may think here we go again, but stupidity that I have to pay for irritates me. Especially when these are engineers that if they don’t know better should have been relieved of duty and if they do know better shame on them and the corporation that employs them.

I believe most if not all are aware that unsprung weight is far and away the major culprit in underperforming suspensions and in the car in general! Likewise rotating mass always needs to have a high place in consideration for its weight control! Well obviously I can only speak for what I have physically seen and more importantly worked on in recent years, but I would be willing to bet this has become more of the norm in new generation cars than not.

As I already stated the Lacrosse is a very nice car by today’s standards, but oh it could be so much better! My wife’s “13” Lacrosse has only 16,000 miles on it. But a recent recall of all those platformed cars for a link rod defect of the electroplated paint made me see what condition my “12” & “13” were in! So a quick look under it this past spring said two things. The undercarriage was immaculate, but the underpinnings were less than desirable for me. So with the exterior redo of the house ahead of me I decided a winter project for her car would be the plan. So here I’am a month after starting and I can tell you that the suspension of the Indian is far and away a more pragmatic, better engineered, straightforward & better performing suspension and not even half the weight of the Lacrosse, literally! With none of the down side of the Lacrosse suspension. 

I started with my wife’s because having seen in the past what these suspensions consisted of I knew I would ultimately modify components for mine. The plan was to by new parts for hers and keep hers stock, but I would gut the entire front & rear suspension, including subframes. Clean, sand & paint with my Hammerite glass impregnated paint, which is pretty much impervious to nearly everything. It was during this tear down that I realized just how over the top damn heavy these components where. I knew the brakes rotors were heavy, but this was ridiculous. To further add insult to injury the rod link recall had nothing to do with the electro plate painting! The problem lies with the frame side bolt that is used for alignment on this part. It literally corrodes inside the sleeve bushing. So no adjustment can be made, you can’t get the bolt out by any method other that to cut it out! This in the process causes undo strain on the flimsy link rod which can cause a failure. Which means this is like losing a front tie rod! That would not be pretty! 

last indian, you have got to show me pictures of what your looking at ! in regards to the frame side bolts that do the alignment, like most of us here we love pictures! they tell the whole story  👍

[Last Indian]

I hear ya Kiwi! There are many opinions as to what the multiplier is, but all agree there is more than a 1 to 1 differential for weight reduction of unsprung weight vs sprung. I believe the real facts, because of all the years I’ve spent building suspensions, including racing suspensions, are it depends on where the weight is removed from! In the attached pictures for instance it shows the weight of the rear knuckle, wheel bearing as well as the rear rotor. These three pieces, because of their location in the fulcrum have the greatest effect as unsprung weight. The rotor also has a major effect as a rotational mass. The more above centerline of the wheels the more effect. The farther out from the centerline of the body, (towards the wheel) the more effect. The father below centerline of the wheel the less effect, so to speak, I’ll explain is later. The closer to body centerline the less effect. 

 

The end result here is what I was saying, see pictures, the Lacrosse for one rear wheel side carries more than 23 pounds more weight than the Indian! That is huge! In racing we would kill for 1 pound of unsprung weight reduction. The lowest multiplier number I’ve ever see was 1 pound of unsprung weight equals 6 pounds sprung weight, but most say at least 10 pounds & some as much as 20 pounds.  That means if I were to put the Indian suspension under the Lacrosse it would be like reducing the rear weight of the car between 300 lbs & 920 lbs. No matter which you chose the impact would be very noticeable. Which is why when her car is done, I well take those components, clean them up. Cut them up in a manner that will reduce their weight. Then rebuild them and install them on my Lacrosse.

This is the buick knuckle

buick rotor

buick knuckle & upper control arm

last Indian wheel bearing

buick knuckle & trailing arm

buick knuckle & lower control arm

buick knuckle & link rod

buick knuckle, link rod & link rod dampener 

buick knuckle with Indian rear knuckle on top

buick wheel bearing

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Last Indian

[Frosty]

Last Indian, I am no suspension engineer, so I will defer to you and others for wisdom. However, let me throw this out as a hypothesis. Could the additional mass/unsprung weight work to dampen sway and/or absorb level of road roughness without transferring it to the chassis/body of the car?

Let me try to elaborate why I suggest this. My parents always owned Buicks. My grandfather worked for Buick Motor Division for nearly 52 years. My dad worked at both Buick and AC Spark Plug. When time came for purchase cars with his new bride, they bought Buicks, first because of family pride but later my mother developed Ménière's disease, which affects the middle ear, which impacts your sense of balance. She could not handle certain cars ride and handling. My dad would bring an occasional company car home on weekends and evaluate them. Cadillacs made her nauseous because the ride was too soft and mushy. Chevys and some large Pontiacs were too harsh. Olds were okay. Buick's were the best in terms of low sway and ride for her so we would always purchase a top end Buick for her to ride in over the years.

So given my late mother's experience, could this greater mass be used in an effort to dampen road vibrations and harshness and not transfer it to the passenger experience.? Mind you, this is just a theory. I have nothing in science or fact to back it up.

On 12/10/2021 at 6:09 PM, Last Indian said:

Ok,Ok so Frosty found me out! I thought maybe the insurance guy would by it and foot the bill for new pieces parts! No such luck! 

[Last Indian]

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Last Indian, I am no suspension engineer, so I will defer to you and others for wisdom. However, let me throw this out as a hypothesis. Could the additional mass/unsprung weight work to dampen sway and/or absorb level of road roughness without transferring it to the chassis/body of the car?

Let me try to elaborate why I suggest this. My parents always owned Buicks. My grandfather worked for Buick Motor Division for nearly 52 years. My dad worked at both Buick and AC Spark Plug. When time came for purchase cars with his new bride, they bought Buicks, first because of family pride but later my mother developed Ménière's disease, which affects the middle ear, which impacts your sense of balance. She could not handle certain cars ride and handling. My dad would bring an occasional company car home on weekends and evaluate them. Cadillacs made her nauseous because the ride was too soft and mushy. Chevys and some large Pontiacs were too harsh. Olds were okay. Buick's were the best in terms of low sway and ride for her so we would always purchase a top end Buick for her to ride in over the years.

So given my late mother's experience, could this greater mass be used in an effort to dampen road vibrations and harshness and not transfer it to the passenger experience.? Mind you, this is just a theory. I have nothing in science or fact to back it up.

Frosty, I understand you thinking that way and that’s very understandable, but no. Lots of folks think of suspensions backwards, or more accurately, upside down. Springs, shocks, struts, sway bars, bushings etc.. Are all there to serve the purpose of keeping the tires on the ground not the car up in the air. Now do not misconstrue that statement! A lot of what’s on top, sprung suspension, effects what all of those components are designed like, because there are, as you pointed out, cabin dynamics that are effected by unsprung components and of course the body must be supported above, but the predominant goal of every suspension is to keep the unsprung suspension planted firmly on the ground! Thus the more unsprung weight the more difficult it becomes to control it. I can tell you that if you delve into suspension designs you will soon learn that the heavier the unsprung weight is the harsher the ride, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t things that can be done to compensate for that as well. In general the lower the weight, relatively speaking, the less harmonics are transferred to the chassis, which changes the resonance frequency.

As a side bar, in the picture above that says buick knuckle, link rod & link rod dampener. That dampener is a rubber coated 1 lb. weight attach at the end of the link rod end to do nothing except absorb harmonic energy.

Think of it this way from a physics perspective. A 4000 lb. accumulated mass motors down the road. The largest portion is sprung. It is exerting all it energy down on the unsprung suspension keeping it glued to the ground. Here comes a bump, the first thing to absorb the energy is the tire! This tire and rim weigh X, so f=mXa, if you want to find the acceleration it would be a=f over m. The point here is the greater the weight the more energy is applied to the rest of the unsprung suspension instead of being held to the ground. This transfers of energy generates more resonance noise to the chassis. There are other ways to control these harmonics and Buick better than any of the other GM brands did this through sound absorbing materials as well as the valving they use for their shocks, but the real difference was their tire selection.  

This is actually a very difficult topic to explain without visual aids! So if it sounds confusing I apologize, but I will answer or explain further to whatever I can. So ask away.

[Wrongway]

It was so much simpler when it looked like somebody was going to catch a beat down for stealing your suspension! 

[64 kiwi boni]

last indian, tell me where do you draw the line at what components are sprung and what are unsprung? 

like with my 64 the diff and the 4 arms are un sprung are the spring included ?shocks ? 

as i think of like a corvette diff that is fully independent, i cant work out what components on that type set would be classed as un sprung ?.... justA asking for a friend who may be looking at using a c4 front and rear set up in a future project with a fully custom chassis, 

[Last Indian]

Think of it this way Kiwi. Everything that is active in the control of the ride control and not rigidly affixed to the car body. So in a rear wheel drive, the axle, springs, shocks or struts, sway bars and their link rods, control arms, but on a double wishbone type only the spring active Aarm, tie rods, spindles or knuckles, bearings, trailing arms, rotors, caliper & pads. 
In a front wheel drive though the engine transaxle is not included, the live axles driving the front wheel are included. But this gets tricky because the weight of those axles only accounts for a percentage of its weight.

Oh I forgot rims & tires.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Last Indian

[64 kiwi boni]

That make complete sense ! thank you !!

[Last Indian]

Ok! I forgot to take pics while I was doing all of this, but here’s some after the fact! 
 

best I can get with it on the floor!

Edited February 3, 2022 by Last Indian

[Last Indian]

What prompted all this is a recall on what is called a rod link. Basically this link adjust the toe on the rear wheels. GM say that the link was over electroplated causing it to chip and corrode and break! Bullshit! The fact is they put a junk cheap black paint on the part so it rust just like the rest of the suspension parts, except for a few. The real failure is the stupid adjusting bolt. Zinc plated with two grooves that allow corrosive material into the bolt/bushing area that than rust the two together causing failure of the link. See pics.

I plan to do my 2012 as well so I’ll try to take good pics of that build.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Last Indian

[JUSTA6]

Lookin pretty good for the wifes car.....  Gotta keep her happy.