Havoc's '48 Farmall "Progression"

[havoc1482]

Lets see if any of you gear heads can gimme any input on this. I'd assume a grinding bearing sounds universal. Here is my post, pulled from the Farmall site:

So, I've always wondered this. I know the gears are straight cut so they are going to be loud, but this sound seems way louder than it should. I've driven cubs, Cs, Hs, and a 140 and they all have whine but not annoyingly loud. It gets louder under load and quiets down if the tractor is moving faster than the engine (aka going down an incline) or if I push the clutch in.

What do you guys think? Is this something I should get looked at before something catastrophic happens? or is it okay? I only use this tractor for light duty. I mostly play with it and drive around. The only time it ever sees action is in the winter when I put the plow on it for snow. Its had this whine since I bought it last year (around August) and It hasn't gotten any better or worse sounding, just the same noise. I've taken the transmission cover off when I replaced the gasket and all the gears look good, nothing broken or obviously worn badly. (Of course I'm no expert) The tractor runs perfect. Since I got the new cylinder head (also rebuilt magneto myself) and I've been seafoaming it every fill up I've had no power issues or starting issues. Good throttle response, no clutch or shifting issues. Just this grinding/whining.

EDIT: also the noise doesn't change much in different gears, it gets a little louder as you move up in range, but not by much. I'm thinking that just has to do with loading in a higher gear.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLLqZzqEU9o

[Frosty]

Havoc - what bearings or bushings are used in your tranny? I agree with you that this does not sounds like something normal. I don't think you have a gear issue, I am worried that you might have some sort of bearing or bushing failure. Also, have you considered the possibility that the noise might be coming from the differential - possibly the pinion bearing?

What type of tranny oil and gear lube is recommended for your tranny and rear end? Has that been inspected or replaced since you've owned it? Are they at proper levels?

[havoc1482]

They are roller/ball bearings. The oil is 90w-140 gear oil, levels are proper. The oil has been replaced a few times since I bought it because I had a bad cover gasket that would leak water into it, so I would change it frequently. (New gasket has since been put on)

Now that you mention it, It could very well be the differential. Since this is a "Culti-Vision" (offset engine) tractor the differential is actually under me on the "driverside"/left, which is where the noise comes from. Considering that the sound is constant no matter what gear I am in, and it varys depending on load, it makes sense that it could be the diff because its always moving/has load.

Thanks Frosty! Never even thought to consider that!

Transmissions hurt my brain, all those gears and bushings, shafts. I'll have to pop my cover and stare at it for an hour or something. I want to split the tractor and work on the transmission, but I don't know where to start! Then again, thats what I thought when I replaced the cylinder head, and I just tore into it without thinking too much, and she runs 10000x better now haha

[notallthere]

Does it have a drain plug? If so throw a earth magnet on it for a couple days and see what comes out of it.

[Frosty]

Ditto for the tranny. Obviously we are looking for debris in the oil. Which ever one has debris is clearly bad. No debris in either of them, then I might be tempted to look at the diff first. Only because I know it has several bearings that can fail - with the pinion bearing being my primary suspect.

Have you inspected or changed the gear oil in the diff lately?

[havoc1482]

Differential and Transmission share the same housing. When you change the oil in the transmission, you're also doing it in the diff. I have not noticed any metal pieces in the oil, but then again, I never looked very hard. I pulled the cover/shifter off last time it was drained and didn't notice anything in there. I do believe I need to do a kerosene/diesel flush. That MIGHT quiet it down, but who knows?. Now that I think about it, I never looked back into the housing at the differential. The gearbox cover only reveals the transmission gears while the diff is tucked back under the housing. The bull gear on the problem side isn't as well lubed as it should be because I have a leak in the pan. I wonder if its the pinion.

I bet I can eliminate the possibility of the finals if I jack the right side up so the wheel is off the ground, hold the left brake so power transfers only to one side and see if the noise changes. Thoughts?? Worse thing that can happen is the tractor will roll off the blocks, but I'll be on top so no danger lol

Also, I meant 85w-140 not 90w lol

[Frosty]

I am no tractor expert, but I did find this interesting forums advise that I think you might find useful.

http://www.farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52728

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=441465&highlight=

As I have suspected, bearings or bushings. I suspect bearings since it takes a lot for a bushing to fail. One of the forums mentions needle bearings on a drive shaft between the tranny and diff in one of the models of their tractors (not certain this really applies to you or not). However, I can see original needle bearings failing at this age. I still think bearings are the issue. However, gear/shifter/shim alignment seems to be pretty important too. Proper lube and level sounds important too.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

[havoc1482]

Yeah, thats for the Farmall Cub, smaller tractor than mine. Most of them are similar in design, but the Cub, being one of the first compact tractors, has all sorts of weird differences from the rest of the Farmall line up, such as one piece hood/grill and a block that isn't OHV.

I know what bearing that is. My tractor has a similar one.

This is a look at the diff housing on a Farmall Cub from the rear. The top hole is the main shaft bearing and the bottom, bigger, hole is the counter-shaft which runs to the diff and PTO.

I bet that is the one that needs replacing, because that same shaft also powers the PTO and when I engage the PTO it makes a similar grinding noise even though the tractor is in neutral. But I bet its either the main or counter-shaft.

[Frosty]

Those are both excellent places to examine. 60-year old needle bearings is excellent shape would be hard to imagine after all these years - not impossible, just improbable. Is there a bearing on the back end of the diff going to the PTO (that we cannot see in this picture) that might also need to be inspected?

Again, don't overlook any bushings either. They can become galled or pitted and start grinding on their contact surfaces too.

[havoc1482]

I don't think the bearing to the PTO side is bad. Remember, in those 60 years the PTO is not used nearly as much as the other parts, especially on these offset tractors because the PTO isn't centered so you'd only run special Farmall specific equipment. It makes the noise under load even with the PTO disengaged, but if I engage the PTO and leave it in neutral (PTO still running) it still makes the noise, which leads me to the countershaft bearing

[Frosty]

Sounds good to me.

[Frosty]

Sounds like a good candidate. If that does not pan out, continue looking at the diff and the pinion gear, or perhaps the main bearings on the carrier.

I agree that square cut gears might be a tad bit noisier but not to the extent or pitch you are experiencing IMO. I definitely believe you have a bearing that is screaming "replace me, replace me".

[havoc1482]

While I changed my oil, I decided to drop the pan and see how things looked inside the engine. When I used the hand crank to move the pistons I hear this *whooosh*ing noise during the compression strokes. Thoughts? Improperly sealed valves or rings?

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCgFg486TZE

[Frosty]

I suspect that you are hearing the compressed gas and/or air exiting the motor as the exhaust valve(s) cracks open as you cycle the crank.

[havoc1482]

Thats what I thought, but its on the compression strokes. The hand crank slowly loses its resistance against my hand as it wooshes. Well I guess I could always take a compression test lol

[Frosty]

Remember that when one cylinder is going on the compression stroke, another cylinder is going on the exhaust stroke.

A compression test is always a good thing. If you have a compression tester, do it. It will certainly give you a sense of the state of your piston rings.

[havoc1482]

Did that compression test. I got 90 - 90 - 90 - 85 respectively on cylinders 1-4. I don't know if those are good numbers, but the fact that they are all basically at the exact spot makes me think my compression is fine. Isn't there a way of calculating the correct PSI by using the compression ratio or something? I remember hearing something like that, but I don't know. Its 6:1

I can't get a straight answer from anyone because there is 3 different pistons that they put in these things from the factory. They had stock (what I have) and there were 2 types of optional high compression pistons.

[Frosty]

From a pure mathematical perspective and simplicity, you divide your PSI by 14.7 to come up with your compression ratio. So 90 PSI equals 6.1:1 compression and 85 PSI is 5.7:1. So I would agree that your compression ratio is 6:1.

Your cylinder #4 with the 85 PSI represents a 5-6% reduction in sealing efficiency from the other cylinders. So you may be headed for new set of rings or valves pretty soon. Something is letting you loose some compression on every stroke. Since you just re-did the cylinder head, I suspect the rings as being the likely candidate.

[havoc1482]

Holy crap a straight answer! This is why I have this thread. Thanks Frosty! Well, frankly that 85psi is something I can deal with. Its only in one cylinder so not much of a power loss. The fact that the other 3 are all at peak compression and that one is so close to peak amazes me. Most people run them with shit compression haha

[havoc1482]

Brake job!!!!

So the reason why that brake didn't work well is because there was a thin layer of oil between the band and the drum. Clearly it leaked from the dif housing, but I don't have the seals or gaskets for that, so this is temporary fix. The good news is that I know what the problem is and I can remedy it in the future!

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsMukQavw0

[Ringo64]

Look at the noob wearing a Yankees hat

[Frosty]

Look at the noob wearing a Yankees hat

I am surprised he isn't being publicly flogged for wearing it in Red Sox country.

[havoc1482]

Hes special

[Ringo64]

Hes special

I would assume in the head department? jk

[havoc1482]

Did some work on the Super A the other day. Took the hydraulic pump off to replace seals and gaskets.

I struggled for a bit trying to figure out where one of the o-rings goes, after doing further researched I found out I got the wrong part. I have the older style pump that used a pressed oil seal in the bore for the pump shaft and not an o-ring.

I also figured out that flange on the pump shaft (last picture) is part of a Speedi-Sleeve. When I put the pump back together the gear was really difficult to turn by hand, after scratching my head for a while I finally realized that the speedi-sleeve flange was pressed against the seal and creating friction. It wasn't scored on the side to make ease of removing it. I had to bend it around until I managed to widen it enough where I was able to carefully slip it over and off the shaft. I put it back together and the gear turns with ease by hand. I have a feeling that speedi-sleeve is what caused the seal failure in the first place.