Any ideas?

[Bonne61]

4 minutes ago, Fitzy said:

Like I said, and please take note: I also have a new Cardone and the supplied points & condenser were garbage. The car broke down and I gave up and had it towed to my mechanic. Replace the innards with Bosch ones.

Have you heard of Performance Ignition Services, in Melbourne? They have an excellent reputation and I have used them before. They can do anything that's required including recurving to suit your engine's specs, fit electronic ignition and/or overhaul. I continue to use the Cardone supplied cap & rotor without issue so far, but keep spares in the trunk.

No spark to one cylinder - crazy.

Ah yes, Ye Olde Horn problem. I fiddled for hours and eventually gave up and retro fitted a discreet button just under the dash to activate a shrieking air horn. That'll get the bogans out of the way.

Good luck.

Yes, I do understand that the repro stuff we can access can be less than ideal a lot of the time. However, the car literally ran perfectly up until "it" happened (over 6,000klms!), & has been shit ever since.

When I say perfect, I mean...cold start first time, idled smoothly (well as smooth as can be expected taking the cam into consideration), cruised like a dream, accelerated clean and hard. Even hot start was only after a few winds (this car has always been a little slow on hot start though). So my uneducated brain still tells me its a "failure" of some kind, not just a shit component. Because if it was a condenser, the issue wouldn't present as it does, or would it? Either would a set of bad points I don't believe?

Anyhoo, another Cardone is on the was so I'm really hoping that will actually sort it. If not, I will then have 3 sets of points, condensers, caps and rotors to play with🙄

[64 kiwi boni]

7 hours ago, Bonne61 said:

Yes, I do understand that the repro stuff we can access can be less than ideal a lot of the time. However, the car literally ran perfectly up until "it" happened (over 6,000klms!), & has been shit ever since.

When I say perfect, I mean...cold start first time, idled smoothly (well as smooth as can be expected taking the cam into consideration), cruised like a dream, accelerated clean and hard. Even hot start was only after a few winds (this car has always been a little slow on hot start though). So my uneducated brain still tells me its a "failure" of some kind, not just a shit component. Because if it was a condenser, the issue wouldn't present as it does, or would it? Either would a set of bad points I don't believe?

Anyhoo, another Cardone is on the was so I'm really hoping that will actually sort it. If not, I will then have 3 sets of points, condensers, caps and rotors to play with🙄

See that’s what’s gets me Paul 

if number 8 isn’t working , it would not start good, or idle good or anything ! Your running on 7 .. 

and . Your would know it .. 

go to the back of the car and listen . When one pot isn’t firing you will hear it ! 

[Bonne61]

1 hour ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

See that’s what’s gets me Paul 

if number 8 isn’t working , it would not start good, or idle good or anything ! Your running on 7 .. 

and . Your would know it .. 

go to the back of the car and listen . When one pot isn’t firing you will hear it ! 

Sorry mate, I didn't explain myself very well.

It WAS running perfectly, for 6,000 kms, until it started to play up-that's when this whole process of trying to find out what was causing this problem began, because it started playing up quite suddenly.

It certainly isn't running perfectly atm😬

[Bonne61]

Well, well gentlemen, we have a winner!

The (second!) new distributor arrived from RockAuto while I was away at work 👏

I put it off for a day after getting home, because tbh I was worried that YET AGAIN it wouldn't resolve the problem.

Anyway, manned up yesterday & out I went. Checked & double checked everything with the current one just to be sure I hadn't missed something simple but no, it still ran like shite.

So, swapped it over, started it up & IT RAN😄. Very well too, I might add...kinda like it always did before it didn't anymore.

Spent about 15 mins mucking around with dwell/timing to hit the sweet spot & it is perfect. Starts first time cold, runs at high idle until I kick it down when the "COLD" light goes out, then bumps away very nicely thank you.

Cruises very smoothly, acceleration is almost instant, & pulls hard until I thought I probably should stop (a little over 100 in the old scale 😈).

Have attached a Fast and Slow idle video for your entertainment.

I am absolutely stoked, as this has been cursing me since 24th October...

 

[64 kiwi boni]

awww !!we all love happy endings Paul 

well done !!!!👍

[Fitzy]

I have also been known to enjoy a, ahem..'happy ending.'

Happy Days, Paul Man. Now get out there and do some mechanical damage. You don't want a perfectly functioning classic in the garage, do you? Why should you be different to the rest of us?

What an utterly perplexing problem. Thank goodness you have it sorted. Now...the old distributor. It's obviously cursed, so at midnight on the full moon, take it to a crossroads, sacrifice a chicken and then cut the dizzy into 4 pieces and have them scattered by horsemen. Only then will we all be safe. Better take some Holy Water (beer) with you just in case evil spirits are about.

I was going to suggest sacrificing a virgin but this is a family website, so don't do that. More to the point, good luck finding a virgin!

[Bonne61]

The crazy thing is, the distributor has obviously failed "in service".

Prior to that the car was running perfectly, and just need the lifters tightened.

And typically - the warranty period is 3 months, and it's been installed for 6! Although to have it running sweetly again is worth the price😄

[Bonne61]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:52 PM, Fitzy said:

I have also been known to enjoy a, ahem..'happy ending.'

Happy Days, Paul Man. Now get out there and do some mechanical damage. You don't want a perfectly functioning classic in the garage, do you? Why should you be different to the rest of us?

What an utterly perplexing problem. Thank goodness you have it sorted. Now...the old distributor. It's obviously cursed, so at midnight on the full moon, take it to a crossroads, sacrifice a chicken and then cut the dizzy into 4 pieces and have them scattered by horsemen. Only then will we all be safe. Better take some Holy Water (beer) with you just in case evil spirits are about.

I was going to suggest sacrificing a virgin but this is a family website, so don't do that. More to the point, good luck finding a virgin!

Ummm, thanks very much @Fitzy, you jinxed me!

After many happy days of cruising around smoothly in the car, carefree, BAM! 

My wife and I were cruising home after an early Cars and Coffee when suddenly the car begins missing again, just like before. Showing her lack of trust with my judgement on the fuel gauge (fair I suppose, we did run out of fuel once early on😆 ), we pulled into the closest servo to top up. Nope, didn't solve it (I knew it wouldn't🙄).

Naturally I suspected the distributor again, as it was exactly the same as the last one that had proven to be at issue (plus NOTHING else had changed).

We drove home, and after checking to see all was well with everything else (leads, plugs, timing, carb settings, battery, etc), I decided to fit the distributor I had rebuilt (will describe what was done to this later on, once car is running well again and I can verify how much better it actually is), plus the plugs the guy recommended and reset the timing as advised. Quite confident that all would be well upon start up I happily cranked away to find that NO, it was still the same. That is to say, missing like a bastard, presumably on one cylinder.

To shorten the story it turns out that it had snapped a rocker post on #4 cylinder, thus the miss🤷‍♂️

I will start another string to continue this saga, as now I need to ask everyone for some advice - please follow along...

 

[Bonne61]

Back again - here goes...

When the engine was rebuilt, in the end we serviced the heads rather than replace them due to cost constraints. Added to this we couldn't find valves to suit it anywhere.

So the heads were cleaned, skimmed, new valve guides were fitted and the seats hardened but...we reused the original valves 😬

Now I've had this issue I'm a little more cautious and think it's time to do a bit more to ensure the top end doesn't end up destroying the bottom end that we painstakingly rebuilt.

My ideal solution (if feasible?) would be to use the heads I've got (as most of the work has already been done), which will allow me to keep my current original manifolds, etc.

I've heard I can have the press in studs changed for screw in, which are much better? f so, do I need to change my valve train assembly? And if so, am I able to (or better off?) swapping to roller rockers? And if so, am I able to retain the current cam (which was installed during the rebuild and which I'm happy with?

The engine is a 389 (now 400ci) that I believe is a ‘59 model block (casting # 532000, block # K268), the original ‘60 (?) heads (casting # 536109).

The motor is running good Butler Performance internals (see list below if it helps to make any recommendations?).

Butler Performance Components:

Comp standard double roller timing set, gears and chain
Rod bearings
Main bearings
Melling high volume oil pump kit Butler mechanical fuel pump plate kit
ARP main stud kit
ARP rod bolt kit
ARP head bolt kit
DSS Forged 14cc Dish Pistons 4.122" bore
Butler hydraulic lifter set
Melling "068" 285/298 212/225 115 Hyd W/.408 lift Camshaft

The car is used as a street cruiser, current spec @ 350HP/440 lb/ft, transmission is original Hydramatic, so won’t handle a heap of HP 😊

Don’t want to spend what’s left of my kid’s inheritance on whatever I choose, as most of that already went on the engine rebuild 😂

Many thanks, in advance 🙏

 

[TWO LANE BLACK TOP]

Bonne61...

What method did you use to set the valve lash when the engine was reassembled...??

Screw in studs can be a good upgrade...And should work with your existing valve train...Just be sure to use new hardware..lock nuts...Etc.

Roller Rockers can be hard to maintain a consistent valve lash adjustment on engines with hydraulic lifters...And they probably won't Fit under the stock valve covers...And I personally (I'm sure others will disagree) don't see any real advantage to using them with your engine combination... Unless you're planning to spin the engine at High RPMS for extended periods of time...

Something else I think may be worth mentioning..

Did you reuse the old Damper/balancer...When the engine was redone...??  If so you need to be aware that the outer ring on old high mileage dampers tend to slip around the inner hub and will render the timing mark completely inaccurate...

 Happy to answer questions as best/accurately as I can...

TLBT.. 

[Bonne61]

5 hours ago, TWO LANE BLACK TOP said:

Bonne61...

What method did you use to set the valve lash when the engine was reassembled...??

Screw in studs can be a good upgrade...And should work with your existing valve train...Just be sure to use new hardware..lock nuts...Etc.

Roller Rockers can be hard to maintain a consistent valve lash adjustment on engines with hydraulic lifters...And they probably won't Fit under the stock valve covers...And I personally (I'm sure others will disagree) don't see any real advantage to using them with your engine combination... Unless you're planning to spin the engine at High RPMS for extended periods of time...

Something else I think may be worth mentioning..

Did you reuse the old Damper/balancer...When the engine was redone...??  If so you need to be aware that the outer ring on old high mileage dampers tend to slip around the inner hub and will render the timing mark completely inaccurate...

 Happy to answer questions as best/accurately as I can...

TLBT.. 

Hey @TWO LANE BLACK TOP, thanks for your response.

I should have said that the engine was rebuilt by a professional who, while not having heaps of experience with Pontiac engines specifically, does have a lot of experience with stock, street and race engines. And I've known him for a good few years so have had a lot of conversations with him prior to engaging him. And he spent a lot of time researching and speaking to Butler to arrive at the combination we have. The machinist also is a very "old school" (also older😀) guy with years of experience, who specialises in "old" engines.

So at least (I hope) I had the best chance at getting a decent outcome. It was too big a job (and with too much money involved!) for me to want to try and attempt it on my own.

And can I say, I've been very happy with the build (barring the electrical issues we've had to sort) up until this failure.

The lash was done at rebuild, again at 1000km, and twice since while chasing the original "miss", that turned out to be electrical. Also prior to the failure, the engine had 150psi compression on all cylinders dry, and 165psi wet.

I like what you say about not using the roller set up - it seems to depend upon who you speak to about that. As usual, there are those that say it's the "only" or "best" way - I just don't think those people are listening when I say the car was intended (and is used) primarily as a street cruiser. Sure I get up it from time to time, but it never gets over revved or "dragged". If what I end up going provides me with a few extra horses great, but I'm not chasing more power necessarily. Reliability, longevity and simplicity are key for me.

And the entire focus for me has been trying to maintain the originality of the car, at least in appearance. So if I can maintain the original valve covers, so much the better.

Thanks again 🙏

 

 

[64 kiwi boni]

Certainly sounds like you should go back to your mate and get him to replace all those studs 👍

Paul I expect you replace the valve springs when u did the cam , but did you check valve spring loading in position ? 
justA check that they are all in spec . Your machinist can check this for you 👍

Edited February 22 by 64 kiwi boni

[Fitzy]

My turn. The exact same thing happened to my rebuilt 389 but not due to broken stud. Turned out to be a faulty Mellings lifter - a global problem. I replaced the lifters with Johnson HyLifts (from Butler) and a set of Crane roller rockers. As the boys said, I checked all rocker studs, eyeballed the cam lobes and checked the seating of all valve springs. All mine were replaced by machinist and spring heights checked then & by me subsequently. Strangely, the same thing happened prior to engine rebuild on the same cylinder  - I have to assume a faulty lifter then as well.

If you go aftermarket rockers, be sure to adjust valve clearances as per manufacturer's instructions - not the original Pontiac way.

TwoLane's harmonic balancer suggestion makes perfect sense - check that too.

Edited February 22 by Fitzy

[Bonne61]

5 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Certainly sounds like you should go back to your mate and get him to replace all those studs 👍

Paul I expect you replace the valve springs when u did the cam , but did you check valve spring loading in position ? 
justA check that they are all in spec . Your machinist can check this for you 👍

Not sure about the valve spring loading in position, can only presume he did? And yes, all new.

20 minutes ago, Fitzy said:

My turn. The exact same thing happened to my rebuilt 389 but not due to broken stud. Turned out to be a faulty Mellings lifter - a global problem. I replaced the lifters with Johnson HyLifts (from Butler) and a set of Crane roller rockers. As the boys said, I checked all rocker studs, eyeballed the cam lobes and checked the seating of all valve springs. All mine were replaced by machinist and spring heights checked then & by me subsequently. Strangely, the same thing happened prior to engine rebuild on the same cylinder  - I have to assume a faulty lifter then as well.

If you go aftermarket rockers, be sure to adjust valve clearances as per manufacturer's instructions - not the original Pontiac way.

TwoLane's harmonic balancer suggestion makes perfect sense - check that too.

Good advice, thanks.

And yes @TWO LANE BLACK TOP, balancer is all good.

[Bonne61]

A bit of an update on my progress...

I've changed mechanic (long story), and have a Pontiac Screw in Stud Conversion Kit, gaskets and a Melling 1.5 Rocker Arm kit heading my way from Butler.

Obviously (and expensively🙄) the heads will need to come off to facilitate some machining.

Hopefully with the current wait on machinists time atm, I'll be driving again within the foreseeable future. Not sure if the car will make Cooly this year though, which will be frustrating. 

At least when it comes back to me, all should be well🙏

[64 kiwi boni]

It’s  called shit happens Paul 

Edited March 6 by 64 kiwi boni

[Bonne61]

10 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

It’s  called shit happens Paul 

Yes it does-although I’d wish it would give me a bit more time to enjoy it in between the dumps 💩

I’m beginning to understand why so many classic car owners have multiple vehicles.

It isn’t out of greed, but necessity 😂

[64 kiwi boni]

nah Paul, once you have all the boixes ticked she will give you years of happy motoring 

[Bonne61]

Good news - less than 8 days after order placed event, my first lot of Butler gear has arrived (screw in studs, gaskets, etc).

The mechanic already has it  (plus a copy of all the information on the new parts and original rebuild that he may need), so the only thing to slow the process now will be the machining (both the wait and the time to do the work).

All going well my rockers will arrive next week - so everything needed to get it back together again will be sorted.

Who-hoo - fingers crossed Cooly may yet still be on the cards 🤞

[Bonne61]

3 minutes ago, Bonne61 said:

Good news - less than 8 days after order placed event, my first lot of Butler gear has arrived (screw in studs, gaskets, etc).

The mechanic already has it  (plus a copy of all the information on the new parts and original rebuild that he may need), so the only thing to slow the process now will be the machining (both the wait and the time to do the work).

All going well my rockers will arrive next week - so everything needed to get it back together again will be sorted.

Who-hoo - fingers crossed Cooly may yet still be on the cards 🤞

Photos, as required...

IMG_9467.HEIC IMG_9468.HEIC

Just now, Bonne61 said:

Photos, as required...

IMG_9467.HEIC 1.71 MB · 0 downloads IMG_9468.HEIC 1.61 MB · 0 downloads

Try again 🙄

[Fitzy]

Welcome to the world of living off baked beans & tap water whilst the car gets showered with gold. We warned you!

[Bonne61]

10 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Welcome to the world of living off baked beans & tap water whilst the car gets showered with gold. We warned you!

So you did - as usual, I never listen to reason.

Although as I've said to my wife...had I have known the time, trouble and expense I was getting into I wouldn't have bought the car and that would have been a damn shame. Despite all of the above, when I get in and drive it I JustA can't wipe the smile off my face 😃

[64 kiwi boni]

1 hour ago, Bonne61 said:

So you did - as usual, I never listen to reason.

Although as I've said to my wife...had I have known the time, trouble and expense I was getting into I wouldn't have bought the car and that would have been a damn shame. Despite all of the above, when I get in and drive it I JustA can't wipe the smile off my face 😃

That’s the attitude 

[JUSTA6]

On 3/6/2024 at 2:21 PM, Bonne61 said:

Yes it does-although I’d wish it would give me a bit more time to enjoy it in between the dumps 💩

I’m beginning to understand why so many classic car owners have multiple vehicles.

It isn’t out of greed, but necessity 😂

Trying to figure out which one to deposit my $$$ in for this year.