Bright Lights

[SUPERBAD]

  Hello, new guy here. I'm looking for a good upgrade for my dim as hell stock headlights. I have a 1969 lemans and would like to do all four with replacing the connectors 

Thanx

 

[SPRINT 6]

FWIW If you don't want to do any modifications and looking to maintain a stock appearance, I recommend the Reproduction T3 Headlamps from Lectric Limited.                   

I've been running them for years and the output is like night and Day (Pun intended)   

https://www.lectriclimited.com/lighting-fuse-flashers

[Frosty]

17 hours ago, SPRINT 6 said:

FWIW If you don't want to do any modifications and looking to maintain a stock appearance, I recommend the Reproduction T3 Headlamps from Lectric Limited.                   

I've been running them for years and the output is like night and Day (Pun intended)   

https://www.lectriclimited.com/lighting-fuse-flashers

What is/was the cost of the upgrade when you did it? These are straight replacement  (modern - not NOS) T3 bulbs, not halogen or xenon, correct?

I just got the new 2018 National Parts Depot GTO/Tempest/Lemans catalog at the Detroit Autorama a couple of weeks ago. It's their first new GTO catalog in 3 years. On page 172, they offer both a T3-style halogen and T3-style xenon replacement. However you have to purchase 4 new t3 bulb-shaped relfectors to go with the H4 style halogen or xenon bulbs. So these bulb reflectors run around $75-105 a piece. The high or low beam H4 buibs are extra a $6-8 each. A complete set of T3 replacement bulbs cost $170 for all 4 bulbs, 2 low beams and 2 high beams.

NPD also offers a Halo LED head light set. What is not clear from the catalog is if this runs $195-250 per bulb (worst case pricing), a pair, or for all four. Of course this comes with a Xenon bulb and 21 LED halo ring that is color adjustable.

I have not checked out Original Parts Group (OPGI), YearOne, or Performance Years either.

However, you and I are both on the same page in regards to Superbad's question - yes there are options out there. Just not inexpensive ones.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Frosty

[Last Indian]

On 3/14/2018 at 12:29 PM, SUPERBAD said:

  Hello, new guy here. I'm looking for a good upgrade for my dim as hell stock headlights. I have a 1969 lemans and would like to do all four with replacing the connectors 

Thanx

 

Well maybe things have changed, so you will have to do some investigating, but hands down the best headlights I ever ran we’re in my 69 Z. They were 7” round aftermarket Cibie headlights that were direct factory replacements. They were not sealed beams and they took an H4 bulb. I run HIDs in my Lacrosse’s and my Grand Prix and they still don’t come close to the Cibies. The Cibies I ran had used 24 percent lead crystal lens, a true mirror plating on the back metal reflector parabolic.  The actual performance came from the lens. While it was a 7” round light the lens threw the light down and slightly to the right no light existed above the horizon mid line. Just like a projection headlight in today’s cars, but without any loss due the thick magnifying lens and a multiple bounced light signal that has loss due to opacity issues. 

See attached link.

https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/headlights/cibie-5-34-inch-e-approved-headlight-conversions

Edited March 16, 2018 by Last Indian

[Stripes]

I had some of those Cibie headlights in the 90's. They and the T3 replacement headlights are dinosaurs today. Those T3 light are barely any brighter than the crappy stock lights and SUCK the amps out of your likely undersized for them headlamps alternator.

The answer? HID headlights, for sure. My HID headlamps appear stock, use lots less amps than a halogen or OE light, and on low beam put out at least 100 times more light. I don't even use high beams for fear of blinding low aircraft. Ok, that may be a little exaggeration.  But one HID light puts out more light that 4 factory lights by far. Check out https://www.octanelighting.com  and thank me later. Check out the presentation I gave below, and no, I do not work for octane lighting.

 

April Tech N 10 DAPA headlights.pptx

[Last Indian]

15 hours ago, Stripes said:

I had some of those Cibie headlights in the 90's. They and the T3 replacement headlights are dinosaurs today. Those T3 light are barely any brighter than the crappy stock lights and SUCK the amps out of your likely undersized for them headlamps alternator.

The answer? HID headlights, for sure. My HID headlamps appear stock, use lots less amps than a halogen or OE light, and on low beam put out at least 100 times more light. I don't even use high beams for fear of blinding low aircraft. Ok, that may be a little exaggeration.  But one HID light puts out more light that 4 factory lights by far. Check out https://www.octanelighting.com  and thank me later. Check out the presentation I gave below, and no, I do not work for octane lighting.

 

April Tech N 10 DAPA headlights.pptx 11.68 MB · 4 downloads

I understand you may think you had some Cibie’s, but if you are comparing them to T3’s then you did not! 

First of all Cibie are only non sealed Halogen lights! Which in the 1990 were still illegal in the US for highway use. Which made them difficult to obtain. T3 are sealed beam! Second Cibie’s are a special metal parabolic housing, that use pure silver that is plated on to the housing, with a patented specifically cut 24% lead crystal lense that distributes the light very similar to a cutoff projection headlight. This combination presents a wider flatter, but further out light pattern than any past or present sealed beam headlight! This headlight became the benchmark that all the marketers of today try to achieve. The very advertising photos they use to show are exactly the same type photo Cibie used in the late 1960’s. They also were quite pricey!

Third, with respect to light, any light, when used for illumination, but with concentration, there are two very important requirements! Number one is the design of the parabolic and it’s reflective surface characteristic! Then the all important Kelvin temperature. This temperature, color spectrum, determines how things are illuminated. This feature and only this feature is a more desirable element than the stock Halogen bulb! But in today’s world you could and can install an HID or LED bulb and have the best of both worlds! 

The fact is that a 7” round parabolic is the best headlight shape followed by a 5” round! Followed by nothing! One of the main reasons manufacturers stated producing projection headlights was because their chopped up sculpted headlight designs just plain sucked! They needed a way to get back to an honest parabolic shape to be able to reflect light with the physical properties that come from that physics law!

Edited April 4, 2020 by Last Indian

[Stripes]

Yes I had Cibies. Yes they had h4 bulbs, and 7" glass lenses in my  RX7. Yes they weren't legal, and yes I ran them everywhere with no issues. They were not hard to obtain. They were a vast improvement over stock lights of the time period, and were vastly better than any T3 light. The halogen bulbs at the time were expensive and burnt out often. However, the point was, both are outdated today. The HID lights do more using less resources, more durable, last longer, and are far far brighter in both volume and intensity. They can fit in the Cibie housings if you wish. Cibie sold quite a few pairs of thier lights, I had exactly one pair. I'm not sure what your jibberish is regarding housings, but I promise you new vehicles with those projector  hid lights are far brighter than any 7" Cibie. However, I drive a classic car and do not have the luxury of selecting the size of the headlights, I have to go with what is there. The bulbs I can change.

[Last Indian]

9 hours ago, Stripes said:

Yes I had Cibies. Yes they had h4 bulbs, and 7" glass lenses in my  RX7. Yes they weren't legal, and yes I ran them everywhere with no issues. They were not hard to obtain. They were a vast improvement over stock lights of the time period, and were vastly better than any T3 light. The halogen bulbs at the time were expensive and burnt out often. However, the point was, both are outdated today. The HID lights do more using less resources, more durable, last longer, and are far far brighter in both volume and intensity. They can fit in the Cibie housings if you wish. Cibie sold quite a few pairs of thier lights, I had exactly one pair. I'm not sure what your jibberish is regarding housings, but I promise you new vehicles with those projector  hid lights are far brighter than any 7" Cibie. However, I drive a classic car and do not have the luxury of selecting the size of the headlights, I have to go with what is there. The bulbs I can change.

 Cole, first of all if I made you feel that I was insulting you I apologize, but I wasn’t. You made a blanket statement about Cibies’ and T3 lights, which could be quite misleading to others and we were all speaking about classic car fitment, be it 7” or 5 ¾” round. So there is not a lot to choose from. While I never mentioned it, because I was sure you would respond back, those specific Cibie lights were Z-Beams, which were different than the standard H4 Cibie light. Additionally Cibies Z-Beams haven’t been made since 1986 and Cibies ceased all production in 1992 with next to no US sale for a few years prior to that. That said there was at the time and still are some reproductions and knockoffs being made and sold. Hence the statement, you did not! And your reply, they were not hard to obtain reenforces that. 

As far as the gibberish, not (jibberish) goes, I will presume your understanding of the physics of light, its transmission as well as its makeup are not part of your wheelhouse. Otherwise your statements of volume, of which there is volume to be expressed for light! Intensity yes, wavelength yes, color yes, reflective property’s, absorption yes. Light and it’s transmission are an entire science all its own. HIDs and LEDs are different than a glowing tungsten wire or a glowing tungsten wire surrounded by halogen gas! Those two light forms are good not because of the electrical draw reduction, but because of the wavelength of light they can produce that a tungsten wire and halogen can’t. In which case has nothing to do with the mechanism that transmits the light, thus back to the original Cibie Z-Beam!

This was meant to teach not correct!

 

[Stripes]

Thanks for your incorrect speculation on the equipment I purchased and installed on my vehicle. I know what I  installed on my car, geez get over yourself.  My point is that I have compared and experienced both halogen and HID headlights side by side on my vehicles. I didnt need a physics lesson or deep dive into reflector technology to SEE which were vastly better. I come to forums like this to learn from what others experienced and share my own experiences. 

[Last Indian]

15 minutes ago, Stripes said:

Thanks for your incorrect speculation on the equipment I purchased and installed on my vehicle. I know what I  installed on my car, geez get over yourself.  My point is that I have compared and experienced both halogen and HID headlights side by side on my vehicles. I didnt need a physics lesson or deep dive into reflector technology to SEE which were vastly better. I come to forums like this to learn from what others experienced and share my own experiences. 

I think you need to look in the mirror son! You’re the one who is posting to a topic long closed, 2 years old, from someone asking about lights for his car. 
your purpose was clearly look at me, look at me! Look what I know! 

[64 kiwi boni]

On 3/16/2018 at 9:49 AM, Last Indian said:

Well maybe things have changed, so you will have to do some investigating, but hands down the best headlights I ever ran we’re in my 69 Z. They were 7” round aftermarket Cibie headlights that were direct factory replacements. They were not sealed beams and they took an H4 bulb. I run HIDs in my Lacrosse’s and my Grand Prix and they still don’t come close to the Cibies. The Cibies I ran had used 24 percent lead crystal lens, a true mirror plating on the back metal reflector parabolic.  The actual performance came from the lens. While it was a 7” round light the lens threw the light down and slightly to the right no light existed above the horizon mid line. Just like a projection headlight in today’s cars, but without any loss due the thick magnifying lens and a multiple bounced light signal that has loss due to opacity issues. 

See attached link.

https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/headlights/cibie-5-34-inch-e-approved-headlight-conversions

last indian, would these be the cibie lamps you are referring to back last year ?

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/vintage-parts/electrics/listing-2651248150.htm?rsqid=0d772b61741743cbac9ff04ac1674882-00

 

 

[Last Indian]

10 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

last indian, would these be the cibie lamps you are referring to back last year ?

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/vintage-parts/electrics/listing-2651248150.htm?rsqid=0d772b61741743cbac9ff04ac1674882-00

 

 

Kiwi, hard to say from a picture, but Valeo did acquire Cibie in 1978, I think it was “78”? So they very possibly are Z beams. The attached link gives some information about it all. My 1969 Z had Z beams starting in 1974. As I stated earlier they were hands down the best lights I ever have seen! Some of today’s lights are good, but for the most part, most headlights today still either lack the adjustment ability to really make them effective for the driver without blinding the oncoming traffic or just plain lack the technology as a light fixture. So most folks do what people do! Throw more power in it! Which only makes it worse for oncoming traffic, but you know, screw the other guy who cares! Z beams did better and before what projection headlights do! The throw a cutoff light beam! And when I say a cutoff light I mean absolutely bright daylight and then right above that night! 
I would assume that if you could get a HID light with the right base that you could use them in the Z beam and quite likely improve the overall performance of the Z beams because of the Kalvin color! The only downside I saw to the light was that the metal housing was plated like a mirror with silver, that for me over time deteriorated like a mirror does. So the lead crystal lens is adhered to the metal housing. So I separated the two, stripped the housing down to bare steel and sent it out to be copper/nickel plated! Which came out pretty cool because it had just a slight rose tint in the right light because of the nickel. 
https://valeoservice.cld.bz/valeo-CIBIE-brochure/2-3/

 

Not real obvious, but you can see a bit of the rose tint here.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Last Indian

[64 kiwi boni]

Hmm, i will ask the guy what the condition of the reflectors are and if they are brand new... might just grab them !

i like your idea Last indian, of finding a hid bulb to fit them, 

[Last Indian]

10 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Hmm, i will ask the guy what the condition of the reflectors are and if they are brand new... might just grab them !

i like your idea Last indian, of finding a hid bulb to fit them, 

Here’s a place in the states that sells H4 hid systems. They are a good outfit, I’ve bought from them many times in the past.
https://www.theretrofitsource.com/
 

The thing that’s great about the Z beams is as I said they were around before projector headlights, but they are also quite superior! The cut of the 24% lead crystal glass lens uses true optic opacity to direct the light in the Z type pattern. In this way it is both pure in replication of the pattern and wave length of light! Where as a projector headlight uses a magnification system, a parabolic housing and a cutoff plate to direct direct the pattern and light wave length. The projection system displays a variable pattern in intensity, focus and width depending on what the distance is in front of you! Like a movie projector has to be focused to make the picture clear, except a projector headlight doesn’t have the variable focus element.

Also the optical clarity of the magnifying lens in all of the projector headlights I’ve looked at, even the high end cars like BMW, Mercedes, etc are not truly optical grade glass! Which means there is not only a distortion of the wavelength of light, but the true lumens that pass through the lens! All bulbs that list their lumens do so without a fixture influence, fyi!

[64 kiwi boni]

Thank you Last indian! great info again ! i will read up about hid ... really dont know much about them, but what i do know is i am having trouble driving at night !!!🙄 and more light will help no end!🙄

eyes are one thing i never thought  would bugger up, but man... i am only 54 and they are going south fast !😞

[Ringo64]

6 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Thank you Last indian! great info again ! i will read up about hid ... really dont know much about them, but what i do know is i am having trouble driving at night !!!🙄 and more light will help no end!🙄

eyes are one thing i never thought  would bugger up, but man... i am only 54 and they are going south fast !😞

It’s a HUGE difference. Driving my Camaro which has HID lights VS the G6 which doesn’t is like driving at day vs night (pun intended). I’m in my 30s and love it lol

[Frosty]

I've been trying to find a good T3 high and low beam replacement set without going to projectors for Lucy. I'm into a stock look but with much better visibility. I would love to find a relatively inexpensive but high quality HID or halogen bulb/set.

With the interior out of Lucy, I plan to install LEDs on the cluster and perhaps on many of the other exterior bulbs as well. So why not upgrade the headlights while I am at it?

Last Indian - any recommendations?

[Last Indian]

10 hours ago, Frosty said:

I've been trying to find a good T3 high and low beam replacement set without going to projectors for Lucy. I'm into a stock look but with much better visibility. I would love to find a relatively inexpensive but high quality HID or halogen bulb/set.

With the interior out of Lucy, I plan to install LEDs on the cluster and perhaps on many of the other exterior bulbs as well. So why not upgrade the headlights while I am at it?

Last Indian - any recommendations?

’ll do my best to help. I would like to preface this with my input to how complexed lighting is, which in many ways is why it’s such a shambles today for car head lights!

Light in of itself is a science, a very complexed science! Light is the only reason we can see! Our eyes are one of the most remarkable gifts we have! Nothing, absolutely nothing can duplicate them! No matter how close we get with sensors, they can’t duplicate our eyes and to get even remotely close it takes multiple sensors that do different functions! The human eye can at one glance discern distance, intricate color, shading, texture, soft, sharp, vapors and so much more! All of this is because of light! Next to locks lighting fixtures are the oldest know inventions along with different fuel to obtain brighter illumination!

By the mid 20th century we had achieved fairly good road illumination given the limitations of incandescent bulbs & their Kalvin color light band. The parabolic design had and has proven to be the most optimal reflector for light refraction and in a round design! So all we needed was a better light source, one that could mimic daylight! But no! New, dare I say less capable engineers that couldn’t see to the end of their noses with 5500 degrees of Kalvin found it was more fitting to carve up every headlight fixture into some abortion that didn’t come close to resembling the very oldest of light fixtures. 

The point here is that headlights starting in the late “70”s kept getting increasingly worse because they kept chopping the parabolic up, reducing its size, making it only a piece of a round parabolic and magnifying it with non optical grade glass! Which meant light was lost as well as distorted! The Cibie takes all the light that comes from the parabolic and concentrates it in a smaller focal window! 

So now for you guys, Frosty, Kiwi and any others. Since you have old 7” or 5 ¾ headlights that are true parabolic housings you can have the best of both worlds! The Cibie’s of today may not be what they were when Cibie owned them, but they would still be heads above anything else out there. There is a guy named Danel Stern, see the attached link. https://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/products.html 

It appears he can get you the Cibie lights. I would than recommend getting 5500 to 6000 Kalvin color hid lights! These will consume less power and run cooler then standard H4 bulbs. Since your cars don’t run computers there are no issues for you to get around so you don’t need cad/cam canceling adaptors or the like. If you talk to a good HID company like Retrofit Source you should be able to tell them what you’re doing and get what you want. When you’re done you should have a very clean installation and a setup that looks stock!
 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Last Indian

[64 kiwi boni]

17 hours ago, Frosty said:

I've been trying to find a good T3 high and low beam replacement set without going to projectors for Lucy. I'm into a stock look but with much better visibility. I would love to find a relatively inexpensive but high quality HID or halogen bulb/set.

With the interior out of Lucy, I plan to install LEDs on the cluster and perhaps on many of the other exterior bulbs as well. So why not upgrade the headlights while I am at it?

Last Indian - any recommendations?

Yes i know what you mean frosty, i too dont want a head light that looks odd, the cibies will look stock but like last Indian said, can give way better performance that a projector can !👍👍

 i have bided on the cibies and if i win them i will set them up on the new girl(caddy) and then once i have bonny sorted i will give them to her 

 i really like Last indian's idea of using a hid bulb system. 

 its Thursday night here and i am buggered, work load is like pre xmas, everyone wants something done yesterday !!

 

[64 kiwi boni]

9 hours ago, Last Indian said:

’ll do my best to help. I would like to preface this with my input to how complexed lighting is, which in many ways is why it’s such a shambles today for car head lights!

Light in of itself is a science, a very complexed science! Light is the only reason we can see! Our eyes are one of the most remarkable gifts we have! Nothing, absolutely nothing can duplicate them! No matter how close we get with sensors, they can’t duplicate our eyes and to get even remotely close it takes multiple sensors that do different functions! The human eye can at one glance discern distance, intricate color, shading, texture, soft, sharp, vapors and so much more! All of this is because of light! Next to locks lighting fixtures are the oldest know inventions along with different fuel to obtain brighter illumination!

By the mid 20th century we had achieved fairly good road illumination given the limitations of incandescent bulbs & their Kalvin color light band. The parabolic design had and has proven to be the most optimal reflector for light refraction and in a round design! So all we needed was a better light source, one that could mimic daylight! But no! New, dare I say less capable engineers that couldn’t see to the end of their noses with 5500 degrees of Kalvin found it was more fitting to carve up every headlight fixture into some abortion that didn’t come close to resembling the very oldest of light fixtures. 

The point here is that headlights starting in the late “70”s kept getting increasingly worse because they kept chopping the parabolic up, reducing its size, making it only a piece of a round parabolic and magnifying it with non optical grade glass! Which meant light was lost as well as distorted! The Cibie takes all the light that comes from the parabolic and concentrates it in a smaller focal window! 

So now for you guys, Frosty, Kiwi and any others. Since you have old 7” or 5 ¾ headlights that are true parabolic housings you can have the best of both worlds! The Cibie’s of today may not be what they were when Cibie owned them, but they would still be heads above anything else out there. There is a guy named Danel Stern, see the attached link. https://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/products.html 

It appears he can get you the Cibie lights. I would than recommend getting 5500 to 6000 Kalvin color hid lights! These will consume less power and run cooler then standard H4 bulbs. Since your cars don’t run computers there are no issues for you to get around so you don’t need cad/cam canceling adaptors or the like. If you talk to a good HID company like Retrofit Source you should be able to tell them what you’re doing and get what you want. When you’re done you should have a very clean installation and a setup that looks stock!
 

great info  last indian, and if i pay 400 nz for the cibies its not over the top, looking at danielsternlighting. prices👍

 

[64 kiwi boni]

2 minutes ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

parabolic

this one is really hard to understand, in the context of head lights 

 i googled it but it was not clear about the bending of light in respect to automotive lighting 

[Last Indian]

8 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

this one is really hard to understand, in the context of head lights 

 i googled it but it was not clear about the bending of light in respect to automotive lighting 

Kiwi, I think it’s great that you ask the question! Most folks view a light as a light and nothing more, but as I said, they are so much more! Even a simple table lamp with a shade is quite involved when you get right down to it! The height determines in what range it will eminent from, the wattage is candle power, then the coating of the glass regulates to some degree color and opacity and the shade? Well what the material is, it’s design, whether pleated, straight etc. determines dispersing of the light!

A parabola is a curve where any point is at an equal distance from: a fixed point (the focus ), and. a fixed straight line

A searchlight (or spotlight) is an apparatus that combines an extremely bright source (traditionally a carbon arc lamp) with a mirrored parabolic reflector to project a powerful beam of light of approximately parallel rays in a particular direction, usually constructed so that it can be swiveled about.

 

 

I’m sure you’ve seen this type of light before maybe at a grand opening or the like, but they actually date back as far as the 1880s. Yes that’s 18 not 19! 

Before I forget, the above not only relates to the purpose of the parabolic, but also the advent of the HID light because it is a carbon arc light! While it is somewhat different it is still a carbon arc light! If you have flood lights in your house they are a parabolic and the shape of the parabolic ( read that as angle ) determines whether it’s a flood or a spot light. The wider the angle the wider the light beam the narrower the angle the narrow the beam. Also the reflected light comes off of the opposite side of the parabolic, but don’t confuse the refraction I mentioned with the parabolic itself, that comes when it passes through the lens. So like in the “50”s when they put cutoff plates on car headlights that’s why they were on the top! In this way they would block the light beam coming off the bottom side of the parabolic which actually goes up! Like wise this is way the block off plate in a projector headlight is on the bottom! Because it’s magnified through a one sided convex lens the image aka, light is upside down
 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Last Indian

[64 kiwi boni]

Ok thank you, that makes way more sense and i can relate that to what your were saying about the cibies👍

[Last Indian]

On 6/10/2020 at 8:50 AM, Frosty said:

I've been trying to find a good T3 high and low beam replacement set without going to projectors for Lucy. I'm into a stock look but with much better visibility. I would love to find a relatively inexpensive but high quality HID or halogen bulb/set.

With the interior out of Lucy, I plan to install LEDs on the cluster and perhaps on many of the other exterior bulbs as well. So why not upgrade the headlights while I am at it?

Last Indian - any recommendations?

Frosty & Kiwi, there is also Octane lighting they also make and sell non sealed beam headlights. They sell a set of 5 3/4 round that look a little bit like the Cibie lights, but much much cheaper. They take a H4 bulb as well, so you could than add the HID lights to these housings. This would make them more efficient than a stock headlamp.

https://www.octanelighting.com/

[64 kiwi boni]

6 hours ago, Last Indian said:

Frosty & Kiwi, there is also Octane lighting they also make and sell non sealed beam headlights. They sell a set of 5 3/4 round that look a little bit like the Cibie lights, but much much cheaper. They take a H4 bulb as well, so you could than add the HID lights to these housings. This would make them more efficient than a stock headlamp.

https://www.octanelighting.com/

last Indian, my plan is to grab those cibies off trademe, if i win the bid !🙄

 and then score some hid kits, but what i may do is buy those off my trusted local auto electrician, so if they shit them selves i can go back to him 😜

and i will post here how the whole set up goes... and i bet your going to be impressed with the out come