labor unions

[Killiger2009]

As a Economics/political sciences major, the undeniable TRUTH is the United States that I and the poor fool “pulling the union rope” grew up in is dead. Market freedom was brought down by Government regulation. Worker’s rights which were championed by UNIONS were brought under control by Government regulations. The Union leaders have worked diligently with the new Democrat (communist) Party to construct the “NEW WORLD ORDER”. That is… all peoples of the world have income of some kind ie…Government subsidized, employed by a Government agency handing out the subsidiaries, or working in a Government regulated industry paying for the Government subsidiaries. The Health care industry was the last bastion of “open market place”structure until OBAMACARE was “FORCED” on the American public. Now we are the disillusioned union workers your communicating with. To your daughter, she would be better off at a private school teaching, so she would make good money and wouldn't have to worry. Donuts...really yes because that is exactly what I was talking about. The overseas part is about the manufacturing not the police officers or firefighters, plus they can keep their jobs, if a man or woman puts their life on the line then they should be getting a lot more than what they are in my opinion. Quit spinning words and turning them upside down like your liberal news station ABC, CNN, hell honestly it seems like you watch MSLSD (MSNBC) with all the looneys like Sharpton and Maddow. Do you not remember the Carter Administration under the disguise of “we depend on too much foreign oil, we have to make our cars more fuel efficient, we have to tighten our belts…” same stuff they spew now. Blindly we followed our Union bosses and look where it got us, the muscle car nearly died and is going to again permanently soon. Read the Constitution, grasp it and figure out what's truly more important to you, inalienable rights or a person/administration telling you what to do and how to do it.

[Ringo64]

A lot of items in business weren't regulated back when Unions came around, don't get me wrong, back then they did a wonderful job getting everything better for the worker. Like Safety regulations, they are now a standard of the government. I'm in Florida, no unions at my company or state and we still have the government come by monthly to check our buildings and datacenters to make sure we are in compliance plus we have to report our ECO usage weekly. Now with all these government regulations there isn't a need to pay a guy $100k a year in a union just to talk to the government on these issues.

With the economy the way it is today, striking should no longer be the solution because you're just hurting the business even worse to the point they need to close (aka Hostess). I've been on a 20% salary cut for 3 years now but I choose to work where I'm at and so do all my co-workers. I don't complain about it, I just continue what I'm here to do. If it were an issue I would be looking for another job.

[JUSTA6]

As a Economics/political sciences major, the undeniable TRUTH is the United States that I and the poor fool “pulling the union rope” grew up in is dead. Market freedom was brought down by Government regulation. Worker’s rights which were championed by UNIONS were brought under control by Government regulations. The Union leaders have worked diligently with the new Democrat (communist) Party to construct the “NEW WORLD ORDER”. That is… all peoples of the world have income of some kind ie…Government subsidized, employed by a Government agency handing out the subsidiaries, or working in a Government regulated industry paying for the Government subsidiaries. The Health care industry was the last bastion of “open market place”structure until OBAMACARE was “FORCED” on the American public. Now we are the disillusioned union workers your communicating with. To your daughter, she would be better off at a private school teaching, so she would make good money and wouldn't have to worry. Donuts...really yes because that is exactly what I was talking about. The overseas part is about the manufacturing not the police officers or firefighters, plus they can keep their jobs, if a man or woman puts their life on the line then they should be getting a lot more than what they are in my opinion. Quit spinning words and turning them upside down like your liberal news station ABC, CNN, hell honestly it seems like you watch MSLSD (MSNBC) with all the looneys like Sharpton and Maddow. Do you not remember the Carter Administration under the disguise of “we depend on too much foreign oil, we have to make our cars more fuel efficient, we have to tighten our belts…” same stuff they spew now. Blindly we followed our Union bosses and look where it got us, the muscle car nearly died and is going to again permanently soon. Read the Constitution, grasp it and figure out what's truly more important to you, inalienable rights or a person/administration telling you what to do and how to do it.

"As a Economics/political sciences major" I can't see your doing well in that class. I'm happy to see you furthering your education, and hope you do well, as I do for my own kids/grandkids. BUT, your making litle to no sense. "The undeniable TRUTH is the United States that I and the poor fool “pulling the union rope” grew up in is dead." Only if we let it. "Market freedom was brought down by Government regulation." And now the government is trying to REGULATE Unions... The LAST voice of/for the people in our workforce. The unions are the last hurtle keeping China from moving in and buying the rest of America. As a EPS major you some how missed the story on the CELLPHONE in your pocket and the working conditions in China where they are made. They even have to put up nets around the buildings to stop workers from JUMPING out the windows and committing suicide. They don't deal well with unions. The undeniable truth is NOBODY does more for Americans across the board. From local food banks/charity's to the National level United Way charities helping the American public everyday. Including reasearch for cancer, MS ect. UAW workers/retiree's here even clean roadsides, Build Habitat Homes for needy family's. Our local has built many wheelchair ramps for sick/elderly people's homes. Food,toy's,clothing, open bins for donations are @ every union hall and front door of any GM plant I've worked at. Scholarships, Blood drives and too many fundraisers to list. And I grew up with same from the AFL-CIO helping my father, his Union and the other members and their family's around all the holidays throughout the year. I have immediate family still in UAW, Firefighting, Police, teachers and heathcare. NOBODY gives back more to the American public than Union members across the board.

"To your daughter, she would be better off at a private school teaching, so she would make good money and wouldn't have to worry." Your inexperience in any workplace is showing badly. "The overseas part is about the manufacturing not the police officers or firefighters," UNION IS UNION same concept for all! "plus they can keep their jobs, if a man or woman puts their life on the line then they should be getting a lot more than what they are in my opinion." Who will speak for them? You'd make a great politician, you flip flop more than a fish out of water.

"Quit spinning words and turning them upside down." Justa responding to your uninformed statements. LIKE...Blindly we followed our Union bosses and look where it got us, the muscle car nearly died and is going to again permanently soon.????? LMFAO Back to thinking the UNIONS run the companys again, product, design, marketing is all done by Salary. (CLUE)Unions only cover the hourly-working class. The poor bastards that went management and spent 30yrs working 10hrs a day (for 8hrs pay) promised the world and then when its time to retire with the rest of us. GM say's SORRY we LIED. We are not going to give you healthcare like we promised you for 30yrs. While mine was cut dramaticly, I still have something left for now. Seems our government and court system does not back the workers for a 30yr contract.

The Health care industry was the last bastion of “open market place”structure until OBAMACARE was “FORCED” on the American public. Wanna fix healthcare? Our elected officials spend 4yrs in office with pension/no worry healthcare for life. The same system that does not apply to the rest of us. Time served, Thankz for the memories, END OF story. You now go back to the AMERICAN system with the rest of us. Healthcare would be sorted out N fixed by the end of the year! Obamacare is worse case senerio. Its not fixing the greed in our healthcare system. Look at the big picture there too. Our healthcare is dominated by foreign DRs exploiting the system. I've never voted a straight party ticket in my life, nor would I say that I sway towards one party or the other. Our system relies one side keeping the other in check. This is COLLECTIVE barganing at its highest level. SIT DOWN...work a deal for the American public we can all live with. Protect what we have left at all cost. This is the foundation we have left to rebuild on. Start knockin down the debt ya freakin DEM! The Republicans are not looking out for whats best for all of us. Play our way or we hand all over to CHINA. Or make everyones taxes go through the roof. Did anyone hear that bell? It's school time. Add some union reps to show these idiots how to negoticate and get our country back on the right track.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

My two cents:

Unions have overstayed their welcome. They've ruined the big three before by rewarding laziness and demanding high pay for low skilled labor. Even worse, where the instances where unions rehired workers fired because of drinking and doing pot on the job.

Unions are too stubborn and set in their ways, demanding too high of wages to compete with competition overseas. Even better, was the terrible quality throughout the 80's and 90's from domestic cars, people STILL hold new domestic cars to the crappy quality from 20-30 years ago because of unions not keeping workers in check.

Anywho...Justa6 and Alex, your debating is fine. Keep it civil, but start acting like faggots and warnings will be forked out and I'll preen the thread clean if I have to.

[Ghost]

For you Chris, here is my Works Cited

Wolak, Michael F. (havoc1482), [ChaosweaveR], Ringo64, Frosty, Justa6, Killiger2009, Notallthere, and Ghost.

Forever Pontiac. 20 Mar. 2012. Labor Unions Discussion. Web

hey cool. i got credit without doing a thing.

[Frosty]

' timestamp='1355803630' post='77432']

My two cents:

Unions have overstayed their welcome. They've ruined the big three before by rewarding laziness and demanding high pay for low skilled labor. Even worse, where the instances where unions rehired workers fired because of drinking and doing pot on the job.

Unions are too stubborn and set in their ways, demanding too high of wages to compete with competition overseas. Even better, was the terrible quality throughout the 80's and 90's from domestic cars, people STILL hold new domestic cars to the crappy quality from 20-30 years ago because of unions not keeping workers in check.

Anywho...Justa6 and Alex, your debating is fine. Keep it civil, but start acting like faggots and warnings will be forked out and I'll preen the thread clean if I have to.

Unions exist to better the safety, working conditions and pay of their members. That is what they are suppose to do. They are a check against too much management abuse. Government regulation such as OSHA, EPA, and other federal, state or local government regulations regarding pay, safety, and working conditions are reactions to the most wide spread abuses by companies against its workers. So whatever form of abuse that occurs has to be well documented in the public media long before legislation is begun. That means people are being hurt, taken advantage of, or worse, being endangered in some way. The unions are the first ones to try to prevent or stop this. So don't put too much faith in government regulation and oversight to protect you. A regulation that is not enforced is no good to anyone. So don't over rely on the government is my point here.

As for unions being lazy and rewarding unskilled labor, that's your opinion. I realize that most light and general job classifications do not require a college education to do the work. Still you would be surprised at the education level of most union workers I know have. Many go on to get degrees on their own time because they want to, not because they have to. Also, what sort of stamina does it take to do the same repetitive job every day, day in and day out, month after month, year over year? So how does someone in this sort of work earn a better living (over time) for themselves? The answer is they negotiate via their union reps for better pay and working conditions. Is that so wrong? One other point, unskilled labor does not necessarily equate to deserving of low or minimal wages. Like anything else, what will the market bear for this type of work?

About the big three's lack of quality in the 80s and 90s. Yup, it was bad. But let's not forget that some of those problems were either supplier or management's fault. For example, I can recall Grand Prixes, Grand Ams, and Tahoes that could not seem to keep their paint. It would peel off like a burned skin. The problem turned out that the primer used was chemically incompatible with the paint. The union workers who built these cars did nothing wrong. It was salary folks that choose the primer, the paint, and the paint suppliers. Did it contribute to bad quality image? Yup, it sure did.

Other defects like terrible hood and door gaps have management to equally blame. Sure, perhaps it was assembled wrong by a union employee, but all vehicles go through multiple inspection stations. If a car has a problem like a bad hood gap, it is sent to a repair area to have the hood fixed. Ultimately, it is management's call if that car is allowed to leave the plant (in whatever condition it is in). In those days, the attitude of the plant leadership was focused on "making numbers" not making quality cars in those days, so let's not put the blame all at the union's doorstep. That mantra is long since gone. A known seriously defective car will never leave the plant in this day and age. It's too much of a liability and car companies don't want the negative press either - especially if things result in a large recall campaign or law suits. Today, plants need to meet their day build schedule, but the key point is every component or vehicle is a quality product. So the attitude of "just run it" is over. There is no sense is generating bad products of any kind.

On the point of rehiring or protecting people who drink or use drugs on the job. Let's be straight to the point, if someone does something illegal at work, they can be arrested and tried. The union and management have little say in that. If they are convicted, the employee is terminated. If the person makes bail, they can return to work (remember our society is built on the premise of innocent until proven guilty).

The sad truth is that in any large organization you will have your share of bad apples - that is not the union or management fault - rather it is the individual employee's fault. I guarantee that union reps and management know who all of the trouble makers are in their plant. There are processes that are negioated for discipline and the ultimate termination of an employee for things like drinking, sleeping, etc. on the job. Once the "last chance" opportunity for the employee to rehabilitate is exhausted, then the employee will be terminated and the union will not fight it. It is the union rep's job to handle each troublesome situation and to insure that employee is treated in accordance with the processes in the local and national agreements. So if that is your idea that the union rehire's drunks and other slackers, yeah, they do - it's their job to protect the worker - even if the employee is a stupid idiot or makes really bad choices all of the time.

So in the end, how do you propose that a union or more simply, an hourly employee gets better pay and benefits over a 30+ year career? At most companies you start out at a relatively low wage when you are fresh out of college, work your way up, gaining experience and promotions, and getting steady pay increases over the years. How should that work in either a union or simply in an hourly shop then? I would also submit that most of the foriegn transplant companies are paying wages and benefits that are close or on par with UAW wages.

I also feel that foreign competition overseas is not a fair comparison either. Labor laws and wages are vastly different from country to country. How can you seriously compare someone who makes $26/hour vs $26/week? The sweat shops in China are well documented, as JUSTA6 eludes to with his iPhone example. Also, there is conscience currency exchange manipulations going on between the US dollar and China and Japan. How attractive would the price of an imported Toyota Camry be if the exchange rate was almost one to one versus the one to 84 today? The big three need to compete in a global market to be sure. It just needs to be a level playing field.

[indymanjoe]

Very well said! But I'm just a lazy union worker... LOL

Workin on the car....

[Frosty]

Very well said! But I'm just a lazy union worker... LOL

Workin on the car....

Nice....

Now get back to work - you slacker !!!!