Lowering '61 Bonneville ?

[Bonne61]

Hi there,

Do the '61 Bonnevilles use spring saddles or insulators? If so, top and /or bottom? Front and/or rear? I'm finding it difficult to get an accurate answer out there in Google-Land, and my manual is missing that chapter (of course it is🙄).

Also, I'm planning to lower it 2" front and rear - as I want the balance between looking good, still handling ok (not too harsh), and being able to get in and out of driveways without too much trouble. Any information/advice/experiences you may have will be greatfully received.

For the record I'm not going with air bags or drop spindles, so it'll all be done with springs and shocks.

Car is a cruiser, and is running original 14x6" rims with 215/70's.

Thanks in advance.

[Bonne61]

Have asked the question about the spring insulators elsewhere, and now have the answer. 2x insulators for the upper rear springs have been ordered from Rubber The Right Way, in transit as I write.

Am still interested in your opinions and experiences (I'm sure you'll have some) on the lowering question above.

I've also had recommendations on shocks that will give decent control but a comfortable ride, and KYB's and Monroe's seem to come out on top.

[Bonne61]

5 hours ago, Bonne61 said:

Have asked the question about the spring insulators elsewhere, and now have the answer. 2x insulators for the upper rear springs have been ordered from Rubber The Right Way, in transit as I write.

Am still interested in your opinions and experiences (I'm sure you'll have some) on the lowering question above.

I've also had recommendations on shocks that will give decent control but a comfortable ride, and KYB's and Monroe's seem to come out on top.

@Frosty @64 kiwi boni @Fitzy @Ringo64 @Wrongway

[Wrongway]

Well, I personally can't wait to see her when Shes done. I'm a huge fan of lowriders, I know you're only going 2" and not slamming it but I'm excited to see the route you take. I've personally had cars over the years that were bagged, static dropped and a couple that the springs were cut or heated to compress. As for "opinions and experiences", before my Grand Prix I built a 94' Mustang Gt. During the build I dropped her 2" and put on a body kit which left me sitting about 2" off the ground. She looked amazing! After everything was done, paint dried, and car reassembled I took my wife out to lunch and a test drive. The front end rubbed the entrance of the driveway going into restaurant. When we got parked, I checked for damage, justa few scratches. Pulling into my driveway at home she grinded bad, it took about 15min to find an angle I could drive in at that would not grind. I know you won't have the issues I had but you ask for our experiences. To me, cutting or heating springs looks great but ride quality sucks and at my age I'm more about ride quality then I was 20 years ago. Static drops are good and most of the time comfortable as long as you get the right shocks and springs for the size and weight of your vehicle. My personal preference is air bags, if you are able to get all the components needed and can do the work. You can adjust the stance when needed, lay her on the ground when parked which justa looks awesome and get a good comfy ride.

Thats my "opinion and experience" ol' buddy. Good luck Paul, I can't wait to see the pictures bro! 

[Bonne61]

8 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Well, I personally can't wait to see her when Shes done. I'm a huge fan of lowriders, I know you're only going 2" and not slamming it but I'm excited to see the route you take. I've personally had cars over the years that were bagged, static dropped and a couple that the springs were cut or heated to compress. As for "opinions and experiences", before my Grand Prix I built a 94' Mustang Gt. During the build I dropped her 2" and put on a body kit which left me sitting about 2" off the ground. She looked amazing! After everything was done, paint dried, and car reassembled I took my wife out to lunch and a test drive. The front end rubbed the entrance of the driveway going into restaurant. When we got parked, I checked for damage, justa few scratches. Pulling into my driveway at home she grinded bad, it took about 15min to find an angle I could drive in at that would not grind. I know you won't have the issues I had but you ask for our experiences. To me, cutting or heating springs looks great but ride quality sucks and at my age I'm more about ride quality then I was 20 years ago. Static drops are good and most of the time comfortable as long as you get the right shocks and springs for the size and weight of your vehicle. My personal preference is air bags, if you are able to get all the components needed and can do the work. You can adjust the stance when needed, lay her on the ground when parked which justa looks awesome and get a good comfy ride.

Thats my "opinion and experience" ol' buddy. Good luck Paul, I can't wait to see the pictures bro! 

Haha, yes the ground clearance is one my wife has already mentioned.

I can do whatever I like for the looks, but if it feels like a race car on the road (ie: she needs a kidney belt for a trip up the road) or I need to take every speed hump at walking pace and 45 degree angle, she will slap me 😭

She's been down this road before 🤷‍♂️

I've been recommended the airbag route a few times, but tbh I can't be bothered with the cost, effort and the upgrades to the electrical system I'll have to do to install them. I am happy to just go down the "old school" route, & put up with the compromises that will come with that.

[Wrongway]

Yup I hear ya. Money and parts availability, mostly money is the reason I didn't slam my 63'. I ended up lifting the rear a couple inches and got a nice mild rake instead. Justa keep us posted bro and send lots of pics 

[Fitzy]

Hi Paul. I have lowered many cars and although they look shit hot, they don't really like it. It's to do with suspension geometry. Drop spindles are probably the best solution because the spring rates & geometry are largely unchanged. I installed lowered springs in my GP - I was conservative and only went 2" front 1.5" rear. Long wheelbase cars are always going to struggle when you lower them due to the reduced ground clearance. I will say here that if I were to do it again, I would only go 1.5" front & 1" rear AND I would be sure to install heavy duty ones. My wheels are 14 x 6 (same as factory steelies) and the rears will rub ever so slightly when the car is on uneven ground. Otherwise it drives perfectly and feels solid on the highway.

I got a great deal on a set of Monroes from Dave Clee at PontiWorld (now GM Service Parts...I think.) You're not supposed to air freight gas shocks - another reason why I went local, although in saying that Rockauto shipped me some KYB gas ones for my Rodeo!

[64 kiwi boni]

3 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Hi Paul. I have lowered many cars and although they look shit hot, they don't really like it. It's to do with suspension geometry. Drop spindles are probably the best solution because the spring rates & geometry are largely unchanged. I installed lowered springs in my GP - I was conservative and only went 2" front 1.5" rear. Long wheelbase cars are always going to struggle when you lower them due to the reduced ground clearance. I will say here that if I were to do it again, I would only go 1.5" front & 1" rear AND I would be sure to install heavy duty ones. My wheels are 14 x 6 (same as factory steelies) and the rears will rub ever so slightly when the car is on uneven ground. Otherwise it drives perfectly and feels solid on the highway.

completely agree ! i had the front springs reset on my 64 down 2 inches... wrongway !!! i had to have them bump them back up 1/2 inch as it was wayyy too close to the bump stops for my liking ..

3 hours ago, Fitzy said:

I got a great deal on a set of Monroes from Dave Clee at PontiWorld (now GM Service Parts...I think.)

dave rocks !!! good man, when he isnt hurting himself !!!!

https://pontiworld.com.au/usgmsp/

3 hours ago, Fitzy said:

You're not supposed to air freight gas shocks - another reason why I went local, although in saying that Rockauto shipped me some KYB gas ones for my Rodeo!

i did the same and rock auto sent me a set of kyb to nz ! no issues at all 

Edited January 10 by 64 kiwi boni

[64 kiwi boni]

3 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Drop spindles are probably the best solution

good luck finding dropped spindles that are compliant in oz and nz for a ponti !!

and fitzy's right, drop spindles are the correct way to maintain geometry ,,, but watch out for steering arm location causing bump steer !!... 

kiss comes to mind once again !!! Keep It Simple Stupid !

or spend lots of money for a look that  will make your car handle like a pos !

Edited January 10 by 64 kiwi boni

[Bonne61]

5 hours ago, Fitzy said:

Hi Paul. I have lowered many cars and although they look shit hot, they don't really like it. It's to do with suspension geometry. Drop spindles are probably the best solution because the spring rates & geometry are largely unchanged. I installed lowered springs in my GP - I was conservative and only went 2" front 1.5" rear. Long wheelbase cars are always going to struggle when you lower them due to the reduced ground clearance. I will say here that if I were to do it again, I would only go 1.5" front & 1" rear AND I would be sure to install heavy duty ones. My wheels are 14 x 6 (same as factory steelies) and the rears will rub ever so slightly when the car is on uneven ground. Otherwise it drives perfectly and feels solid on the highway.

I got a great deal on a set of Monroes from Dave Clee at PontiWorld (now GM Service Parts...I think.) You're not supposed to air freight gas shocks - another reason why I went local, although in saying that Rockauto shipped me some KYB gas ones for my Rodeo!

Bloody hell you fellas - this includes you @64 kiwi boni, don't you know that when people ask for advice they really only want you to validate their own opinions, not actually tell the truth 😭

Ok...firstly, thank you for your experience and advice.

Now...I really don't want to go down the route of dropped spindles because, (a) they are all but impossible to source, and (b) when I needed new spindles because the minute I drove the car home I discovered that mine were destroyed, I had to go to the US for spindles, hubs and drums and spent a bloody fortune doing it, so I'm a bit reluctant to spend all that money and time over again.

That being said, I want the car to be useable, handle better than it does now (I don't race it, but it has some crazy body roll and where I live is full of roundabouts so I risk wearing out my sill panels😆), not be seriously dangerous on the rare occasion that I may need to do a high speed swerve (to avoid the inevitable dickhead that completely misses a 2 tonne, 6x2m, red car), and finally (perhaps most importantly 🤔) to look way cool 😎

I felt that 2" front and rear was conservative (had initially thought 3" would be good), but I'm hearing that's maybe not the case? I am planning to go with heavy duty coils though, so that should help? Maybe 2"/1.5" may be better, but I worry it won't be enough🤷‍♂️

And, I'm still chasing down shocks so that info is helpful. TBH I've had my share of issues with Dave and had just about decided to bypass him completely and go straight to the US,  but I won't make that public in the interest of fairness. Happy to fill in the blanks if anyone wants to ask privately.

[Frosty]

If you want to help reduce body roll and sway, try replacing all the body bushings with new ones. Most likely they are worn out. I would also replace all the ball joints, and rubber bushings in the control arms with new ones. The bushings should be new rubber, or polyurethane.

Another thought is does your car have a rear sway bar? A lot of these cars did not come with one. However, the aftermarket now has rear sway bar kits for the older B-body cars. My '72 Lemans originally didn't have a rear sway bar either. I added one, and the handling improvement was amazing compared to what it use to be.

[Wrongway]

Paul, it's your ride brother, do what makes you happy so that you have no regrets. When I rebuilt my bike after getting ran over, I let my buddy at the Harley shop talk me into 16" bars instead of the 18" I wanted. I've regretted that ever since. Build the vision that is in your head, that's the only way you will be truly happy. It'll be a badass ride regardless! 

[64 kiwi boni]

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

Paul, it's your ride brother, do what makes you happy so that you have no regrets. When I rebuilt my bike after getting ran over, I let my buddy at the Harley shop talk me into 16" bars instead of the 18" I wanted. I've regretted that ever since. Build the vision that is in your head, that's the only way you will be truly happy. It'll be a badass ride regardless! 

[64 kiwi boni]

11 hours ago, Bonne61 said:

That being said, I want the car to be useable, handle better than it does now (I don't race it, but it has some crazy body roll and where I live is full of roundabouts so I risk wearing out my sill panels

One thing that is an easy improvement Paul. Is to replace the front sway bar which is probly 20 mm on your car with a 25 mm one . 
I took my one to a spring maker and he just copied it in 25 mm stock 

[Last Indian]

Well while you didn’t ask me l’ll give my 2 cents. Pete is correct the suspension geometry plays a pivotal role in this process which nearly everyone ignores! Where you place the suspension axis impacts everything! Toe, caster, camber, turning radius, roll center, CG, weight distribution in braking & tire wear   & so on! You can lower a car to the ground or raise it 5 feet in the air, but what are the repercussions that most ignore or except? 

I won’t carry on about it, but I never really got any of it. In my humble opinion a car looks best with a stout stance! Cars set down look weak! Just like car wheels that are thin spoked or blacked out (that just blends into the black tire etc. all just look weak in the same way, IMO. But beyond that if your goal is to make the car handle better lowering it is not the way to get there. I have built car of many varieties, including lowering ones. All of them took an enormous amount of computation to know what I would need so I knew what I would have in the end.

To kiwi’s point, the best bang for your buck would be sway bar setups front & rear, & bigger is better. And the shortest link ends as possible. Nothing & I mean nothing will effect handling more than sway bars of the most optimal size, with the right bushing material & the correctly size end links!

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best!

[Bonne61]

16 minutes ago, Last Indian said:

Well while you didn’t ask me l’ll give my 2 cents. Pete is correct the suspension geometry plays a pivotal role in this process which nearly everyone ignores! Where you place the suspension axis impacts everything! Toe, caster, camber, turning radius, roll center, CG, weight distribution in braking & tire wear   & so on! You can lower a car to the ground or raise it 5 feet in the air, but what are the repercussions that most ignore or except? 

I won’t carry on about it, but I never really got any of it. In my humble opinion a car looks best with a stout stance! Cars set down look weak! Just like car wheels that are thin spoked or blacked out (that just blends into the black tire etc. all just look weak in the same way, IMO. But beyond that if your goal is to make the car handle better lowering it is not the way to get there. I have built car of many varieties, including lowering ones. All of them took an enormous amount of computation to know what I would need so I knew what I would have in the end.

To kiwi’s point, the best bang for your buck would be sway bar setups front & rear, & bigger is better. And the shortest link ends as possible. Nothing & I mean nothing will effect handling more than sway bars of the most optimal size, with the right bushing material & the correctly size end links!

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best!

As so many of you have mentioned sway bars here, I thought I'd post this. K-Mac here in Aus, the same ones that can make my coils for me, also do a front 27mm sway bar for $420, and a rear 27mm (including all fitting hardware) for $480.

[Fitzy]

As I said, my GP is down 2 & 1.5 and I reckon it looks just right. One of my old Fairlanes I took it down 1 & 1 and whilst it looked okay, it wasn't quite enough.

Because these cars are so long, it seems that an incremental dimension goes a long way. Once again, I would go 1.5 & 1. This gives you an enhanced stance, won't upset the suspension too much (with HD coils) and combined with what the guys said about sway bars & bushings, you'll be a happy man.

I suppose you could do a tyre to body measurement at both ends, take a pic, then load the car with weight and do another measurement and assess it that way. Then you'll only have to do the spring changeout once.

[Fitzy]

15 hours ago, Bonne61 said:

Bloody hell you fellas - this includes you @64 kiwi boni, don't you know that when people ask for advice they really only want you to validate their own opinions, not actually tell the truth 

 

This is so funny AND true. You just wanted us to tell you to slam it to the ground. Yes well that might look nice but you won't be driving very far. You could always have it airbagged and spend thousands in the interest of looking cool. Be a little conservative and you'll be far happier. I have destroyed a sump and have ruined the suspension in some of my old cars all in the interest of trying to look cool. All I managed was to have to eat baked beans whilst the car got repaired.

[Bonne61]

14 minutes ago, Fitzy said:

As I said, my GP is down 2 & 1.5 and I reckon it looks just right. One of my old Fairlanes I took it down 1 & 1 and whilst it looked okay, it wasn't quite enough.

Because these cars are so long, it seems that an incremental dimension goes a long way. Once again, I would go 1.5 & 1. This gives you an enhanced stance, won't upset the suspension too much (with HD coils) and combined with what the guys said about sway bars & bushings, you'll be a happy man.

I suppose you could do a tyre to body measurement at both ends, take a pic, then load the car with weight and do another measurement and assess it that way. Then you'll only have to do the spring changeout once.

Now that's a good plan-just may need to buy some bags of cement, or ask some fat neighbours to help out😆 

[64 kiwi boni]

7 hours ago, Bonne61 said:

As so many of you have mentioned sway bars here, I thought I'd post this. K-Mac here in Aus, the same ones that can make my coils for me, also do a front 27mm sway bar for $420, and a rear 27mm (including all fitting hardware) for $480.

thats a bloody great price !!!!!! and nice fat ones !!! put them on Paul and see what a difference it makes on a winding road !! and with your bench seats, you will notice the difference even more !!!!

and like Last indian said, use good quality bushings on them ! not factory rubber crap !!

nolathane, etc ,i bet k-mac would be able to supply bushings that will fit into your factory saddles, i modified my own bushings from a set i had on the shelf that where for my camaro 

Edited January 11 by 64 kiwi boni

[Last Indian]

Paul, as I said whatever you do I wish you well! That said, it didn’t sound like you were lowering the car so much for looks, but for handling. Is that right? 

If you like the look of the car lowered that’s fine, but if your main reason is to get a better handling car than lowering, 2” will have some impact on body roll, I.E. weight transfer because you will have lowered the CG, but effectively done next to nothing for the RC. Changing the RC is by far the more effective way to increase handling/cornering. 

Remember, most folks think you control the suspension through the sprung weight of the car above, I.E. high or low body, weight of the sprung mass, body bushings etc… that sits on the suspension. That is completely wrong! A suspension controls the movement of the unsprung parts. Upper & lower Aarms, spindles, brakes, tires, rims. Is there an interface? Of course, but that is controlled by the unsprung suspension design, not the other way around. The single purpose of that design is to keep the tires planted on the ground, firmly! All of that said I think, I could be wrong, but I think you want a sweet spot! One that gives you a good ride, but doesn’t make you sea sick in cornering. Those things are controlled at the unsprung level & the only caveat to that rule are sway bars! They are truly that interface! They have virtually no impact on ride comfort from a stiffening standpoint. Yet can, if properly designed & installed, reduce body roll to a barley negligible effect, without changing CG or RC. 

The second most effective way to increase handling is to widen the cars stance. You say you are running 14” tires with 215R70s. So for instance if you were to change to 15” rims, increase the tire to a 245R60 & change the off set by .720, combined with the wider tire x2, you would now have a track width 1.625” wider than you had. That may not seem like much, but at ground level that’s a pretty good impact on cornering. All without really changing much with the car. The biggest impact would be the speedometer, which would read less than 2 MPH slower than you would actually be driving.

Edited January 13 by Last Indian

[Fitzy]

Well said, Gary. I thought he just wanted to look cooler...

[Bonne61]

1 hour ago, Last Indian said:

Paul, as I said whatever you do I wish you well! That said, it didn’t sound like you were lowering the car so much for looks, but for handling. Is that right? 

If you like the look of the car lowered that’s fine, but if your main reason is to get a better handling car than lowering, 2” will have some impact on body roll, I.E. weight transfer because you will have lowered the CG, but effectively done next to nothing for the RC. Changing the RC is by far the more effective way to increase handling/cornering. 

Remember, most folks think you control the suspension through the sprung weight of the car above, I.E. high or low body, weight of the sprung mass, body bushings etc… that sits on the suspension. That is completely wrong! A suspension controls the movement of the unsprung parts. Upper & lower Aarms, spindles, brakes, tires, rims. Is there an interface? Of course, but that is controlled by the unsprung suspension design, not the other way around. The single purpose of that design is to keep the tires planted on the ground, firmly! All of that said I think, I could be wrong, but I think you want a sweet spot! One that gives you a good ride, but doesn’t make you sea sick in cornering. Those things are controlled at the unsprung level & the only caveat to that rule are sway bars! They are truly that interface! They have virtually no impact on ride comfort from a stiffening standpoint. Yet can, if properly designed & installed, reduce body roll to a barley negligible effect, without changing CG or RC. 

The second most effective way to increase handling is to widen the cars stance. You say you are running 14” tires with 215R70s. So for instance if you were to change to 15” rims, increase the tire to a 245R60 & change the off set by .720, combined with the wider tire x2, you would now have a track width 1.625” wider than you had. That may not seem like much, but at ground level that’s a pretty good impact on cornering. All without really changing much with the car. The biggest impact would be the speedometer, which would read less than 2 MPH slower than you would actually be driving.

Well thank you for that,

You have covered all bases here.

Yes, I like the look of the car lowered (so I can look cool😆), but I would also like to reduce body roll somewhat for cornering too. In saying that, it's a 2 tonne cruiser, so when I say cornering I really just mean "going around corners", not chasing Firebirds up mountain roads. So that too will limit what I need to do.

So from all of the input I've received (plus I used some ratchet straps to pull the car down a bit yesterday, as I have no bags of cement and all of my fat neighbours were too busy eating to help me🤷‍♂️), I'm planning (in the first instance, anyway) to fit a new 27mm sway bar to the front (with decent bushes), and 2" lower coils to the front; 1 ½" lower to the rear (all heavy duty). The appears to be enough bump stop clearance at the front to allow that, ground clearance at the front isn't really an issue, and I can leave it a touch higher in the rear because that should make it just a little better for regular driving.

The car sits all but completely level atm, so a ½" higher at the rear shouldn't spoil that effect (I really don't like the obligatory 80's muscle car high arse end look).

Hopefully these changes should give me the results I'm chasing.

[Fitzy]

I hope your neighbours aren't shovelling burgers into themselves as they read your posts. Hilarious!

My car also has the slightest rake to the front and I reckon a full tank would bring it up even. One day, I'll save enough to fill the tank.

[Bonne61]

1 hour ago, Fitzy said:

I hope your neighbours aren't shovelling burgers into themselves as they read your posts. Hilarious!

My car also has the slightest rake to the front and I reckon a full tank would bring it up even. One day, I'll save enough to fill the tank.

Some of them probably are as we speak 😆