Engine & Transmission Oils, their chemistry what it means!
                                           what their color changes can indicate.

Ok, let’s start with some basics that I think most folks know. W or weight, this stands for the first numeric number in the oils designation and refers to winter weight or viscosity in winter at 0 Fahrenheit. So 10 W 40 means the 10 is the winter viscosity not cold start viscosity! That temperature rating is 0 Fahrenheit, not the temperature when you start the car cold! Say you have a high performance muscle car and you only drive it from late spring to early fall and it’s garaged. Most likely you have more bearing clearance than newer engines. You would probably want to run a 20W40 or 20W50 because you are never going to be starting the engine at a low temperature. Which means you want a little more cushion on startup. Something you’re not going to get from a 5 or 10 weight, but remember the 5 or 10 weight is not a 5 or 10 at 60 or 70 degrees ambient temperature, it thicker! So if it’s a 20W50 and the ambient temperature is 65 Fahrenheit the cold start viscosity is not 20 it is thicker maybe 25 maybe 30 it would depend on the actual oil temperature.

Crude oil! No! not all crude is created equal! This is one very good reason to look for the API certified mark on your oil! The American Petroleum Institute certifies that the oil used for making that oil is from good crude among a lot of other things. As a side note there are crudes that can actually cause harm to an engine if used for a motor oil! The oil that you buy that is API approved goes through a multitude of certified testing to get its API approval. These test include test such as deposit test for valves, rings and in general engine sludge. Test for wear. Test for fuel economy. Test for emissions. Test for emulsion and many more. So when an oil is not API approved you are literally playing Russian roulette!

Conventional oil vs synthetic vs semisynthetic! What are they? Conventional oil, this is the oil that comes from the refineries as base stock oil for motor oil. The oil manufacturers then do whatever further refinements they choose and then add their respective additive packages. 
Synthetic oils, these oils come from the same crude as conventional oils most of the time, but then they are taken through a synthesis process! Quite often only certain parts of the crude oil are used. Then other components and compounds are added and some of those pieces are non organic materials. This is all blended almost exclusively under trade secret! Then they add the additive package they have chosen.
Semisynthetic oil, this is as it sounds, a blending of the two! Part conventional and part synthetic! The advantage here would be a better shear stable viscosity oil than a conventional oil, but at a lower price than a synthetic oil. Still this oil follows in the same line of thought as the full synthetic! Extending the drain out further because of viscosity stability or cost is counterproductive! 
This why a synthetic oil cost so much more, there are a lot of extra steps and expense. So what exactly do you get for that? Well from my personal perspective, other than constant viscosity numbers that don’t succumb to shear forces over time! Not much! All the negative impact that occurs to an engines oil does not change by using synthetic oil! All the dirt ingestion, all the fuel dilution, all the combustion gases, all the additives that get depleted, etc., still happen! If you don’t care about the extra expense and treat the synthetic oil as you would conventional oil, then by all means do that! If you are going to extend out the drain intervals because you use synthetic, that is actually counterproductive! Other than viscosity performance, your engine may suffer in the long run depending on a variety of variable factors! Of course if you put a lot of miles on your car and you don’t keep it more than 3 to 4 years and don’t intend to keep it beyond that. Than that’s not such a bad thing! 

This might be of some interest to some with respect to the whole extended drain issue. At one point back about 2006 and than again around 2010 an OEM approach our team, we were a group of 5 that dealt with these type of projects at the corporate level, about a fill for life engine lubricant! The idea was to use a full synthetic oil with a special filter that, beside the filter element would house a delayed slow release additive package that would maintain TBN, address friction wear, mileage improvements, etc. for the warranty period. We did actually prove the concept, but in the end to many other issues were on the horizon for them that I think got in the way! 

Next up Boundary layer chemistry. How it works why it’s important & and some of the issues with it!

Boundary chemistry, how it works or in some cases doesn’t. Additive packages for oils have all kinds of chemistry’s in them to deal with all kinds of issues that effect engine oils. One particular form is boundary layer chemistry. These are chemicals that bond to parts through types of reaction. Heat, pressure, positive charged particles vs negative charged particles and so on. Most of these chemistry’s compete with each other for a surface area, so just throwing in any old chemistry in any amount doesn’t work! Like over additizing ZDDP!  
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, better known as ZDDP, is an oil additive invented by Lubrizol in 1941. Some may know that this is who I work for, for nearly 40 years, so when I say I am very familiar with ZDDP, I am.
Adding ZDDP to a lubricating film works by forming a protective barrier on rubbing surfaces. More specifically, a glassy phosphate-based tribofilm forms and provides boundary layer protection. Film formation doesn't require rubbing contact, but the shear stress between surfaces allow for films to form faster. ZDDP can also form on non-ferrous surfaces like aluminum and even ceramics, silicon, or on DLC coatings. However, at temperatures below 25C, ZDDP are slower to form. At elevated temperatures above 150C, ZDDP can react to form thermal films in the absence of rubbing. This is why depending on the engine use, racing, street, cruising etc… ZDDP may be minimally used or exhausted! Because at the end of the day ZDDP is a sacrificial boundary layer that wears away and then reforms or is constantly being formed or stops being formed when the environment isn’t right!
ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES
AW additives are effective at moderate loads and temperatures. They are used between 0.25% and 3% by weight in fully formulated oil. Depending on the amounts of oxygen present, the applied load and oil temperature, they form durable films mainly composed of sulfate, sulfide and polyphosphates of zinc, iron or other cation species. These films are replenished as long as the additive is present.
Most AW additives are phosphates, and many are supplemented with sulfur or molybdenum containing compounds or other metals to alter performance. Tricresyl phosphates (TCP), amine phosphates, molybdenum dithiocarbamates (MoDTC) and molybdate esters are typical AW additives, but zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) is the most widely used because of its superior performance in many applications, but for fuel economy ZDDP is not a chemistry of choice!
There are two types of ZDDP, primary formed from primary alcohols that have greater thermal stability and less volatile phosphorus, which benefits engine oil applications but less effective anti-wear action. Secondary ZDDP comes from secondary alcohols and have more effective anti-wear action but lower thermal stability and more volatile phosphorus, which is detrimental in engine oils. So you see not all ZDDP’s are created equal and not all are beneficial in oils as anti- wear! Under certain conditions, ZDDP promotes deposit formation at elevated temperatures (e.g., TEOSTTM 33C). It also promotes wear under certain conditions (e.g., timing chains). And the phosphorus from blow-by poisons automotive catalysts. In the early 2000s, the level of ZDDP was reduced in gasoline engine oils. But it is one of the most effective and inexpensive AW agents available, so in recent years the industry has been reluctant to drop it further, fearing that using alternatives could lead to warranty problems long term. Discussions on both sides will continue because it is critical in the automotive segment.

The complex zinc and iron-based polyphosphates and glassy films that form on metal surfaces from ZDDP increases modulus under high loads and temperatures allowing the film to maintain integrity and have ‘smart’ behavior. The film becomes stronger when load increases, like during engine startup, to enhance the anti-wear benefits when they are needed most. For this reason ZDDP’s effectiveness at protecting machinery of all types against wear is superior to most other options.
Even though ZDDP is the work- horse and industry standard for transmission and internal combustion engine’s, limits on its use in engine oils has been mandated because of concerns around phosphorus as a catalyst poison for emission control systems, and zinc, which contributes to ash contents and has detrimental effects on diesel engine diagnostic systems.
For this reason, there is growing interest in ashless AW additives. Two types are thiophosphate based, which contain phosphorus and sulfur, and phosphate based, which contain only phosphorus. Selection depends on the application. Those with higher thermal stability are used in aviation applications. Those containing amines are less compatible with elastomer seals.

Moly, Mos2, MoDTC are better anti-wear agents than ZDDP with respect to new vehicles that use cats. Unlike ZDDP which can actually hurt fuel economy, Moly actually improves anti-wear & fuel economy! So why not use both? These two chemistry’s compete for the same surface area! Why not just use Moly? You guessed it Moly costs substantially more to make! Unlike ZDDP you can put large volumes in the oil, which we did for some OEM testing, but when you approach 700ppm the oil starts to turn orange and the push back we got was,”people won’t want orange oil!
 

Today nearly everybody seems to push for longer drain intervals, but why? Now oil manufacturers don’t, of course, but auto makers do, fleet owners do, the railroads do & EPA of course, again why? Money, what else! Oil companies aren’t in favor of it because they’ll loose money, less oil sold! Auto OEMs, fleet owners and the like want longer drains because it will save money! So what is right for the engine? Just extending drains doesn’t work! Putting in more additives helps, but is less than perfect for many reasons! 
One thing that can and does work is replenishment of certain additives! In the mid 90s a team of four was formed by my company to pursue such an effort with a railroad company of which I was one of the four. Chemistry’s were gathered, equipment was designed and invented and testing was done! Concepts were proved and as we moved close to a operational launch, guess what! The OEM builder of the locomotive got wind of it! Because the rail company needed a sign off for engine warranty issues and that lead to a whole host of issues! Why? Because, you guessed it, they wanted a cut! This OEM is a huge corporation, bigger than both of us combined. Once they got involved it was just a slow death spiral that lasted 2 years! 
A few years after this saga closed I entered another team of of 5 as I mentioned. This effort was successful with pass car. We developed a product, partnered with a filter company and had a successful product line. Not exactly the way we originally wanted it, but still successful. Yet what we were after was the trucking industry and extended drains! We were once again on our way, chemistry’s in place, equipment built & invented, over 2 million over the road test miles run and getting close to a launch time frame. This time we  needed an OEM oil manufacturer sign off, so they sent a top PhD to the test engines tear down, big mistake! Once he saw the inside of these engines, we were done! He went back to California reported his observations and one week later our CEO got a call from theirs! We were to to cease and disease desist! Dead in the water! So what does it take to extend an oil drain?
 

Edited April 29, 20206 yr by Last Indian

What does it take to extend an oil drain? We once had a chemist at the company that was one of those guys that just walked to a different beat! He drove a ratty old car, never really did anything to it. This timeframe was late “70s” early “80s”! Never changed the oil, never! Every so often he’d pull a quart of oil out with a vampire pump and add a fresh quart! He ended up with around 140,000 miles on the motor. That was a lot of miles for a car back then, especially no oil or filter change! By comparison I had a 1967 Impala SS, change the oil every 3000 miles religiously, sold the car in 1975 with a 130,000 on it and that was nearly unheard of then! So you see the chemist was basically replenishing the additives on a regular basis. Now I don’t subscribe to that type of engine treatment, but the point is renewing additives does effectively extend drain intervals. Because additives are what give that life blood fluid its ability to keep the engine humming along.

THE NEED FOR ANTIOXIDANT ADDITIVES
When exposed to heat, oxygen and metal contamination, lubricants undergo oxidation. Base oils can perform many lubrication functions, but they can’t protect against the detrimental effects of oil oxidation.
Oxidation creates polymers, oil-insoluble high-molecular-weight molecules that increase the viscosity of the lubricant, accelerate wear and eventually leads to varnish. The hard “baked on” polymeric coating of varnish also accelerates wear and is a long-term detriment.
Oxidation also creates sludge, a soft oil-insoluble material made of combustion byproducts that suspend in oil. If it remains too long, sludge can plug oil lines and filters leading to oil starvation in the machinery and adhere to metal surfaces, accelerating wear. Along with other hard accumulations of sludge and varnish typically on pistons and valves in engines, deposits due to oxidation can cause valve and ring sticking, eventually leading to catastrophic increase in wear. There is good news however. Even though lubricant degradation processes are complex, the solution is straight forward. Antioxidant additives minimize oxidation and deposit formation. Detergents and dispersants also play a role in mitigating the effects of sludge and deposits.

TBN gives an indication of the amount of base available in the oil to neutralize organic and inorganic acids that accumulate in the crankcase of engines during their operation. TBN or the quantity of base is expressed in milligrams of potassium hydroxide per gram that is required to titrate a sample, dissolved in a specific solvent to a specified endpoint. The importance of TBN has multiple impact on an engine! But not all TBN is created equally! Having a good TBN number means very little in the absence of a TAN number, why? Because they are not counter corresponding numbers, meaning as one goes up they other comes down! This is not true of all TBN! TBN has many influences, detergents, dispersants, etc!

There are two types of additives: bulk oil additives and surface additives. Bulk additives affect the rheological, interfacial and chemical properties of the lubricant, and surface additives are active at metal surfaces.

So how do we, the guy in the backyard, figure this all out as best we can without a lab at our disposal?! 
 

Edited April 30, 20206 yr by Last Indian

 

 

On 5/1/2020 at 3:48 AM, Last Indian said:

So how do we, the guy in the backyard, figure this all out as best we can without a lab at our disposal?! 

that is my exact question Last indian! 🙄

when it comes to all the factors involved, as much as it is about the mix of additives etc in the raw oil, i would have to consider the engine its going into !

i have my old school engines, 313 poly, 389 pontiac, 400 and 350 chev, 360 magnum,  that would ,most likely take one certain oil, but i also have brand new engines ( like my supercharged hemi) that need very specific oil, or is this just a myth ?

And what about cars like mine that sit for months without being started or used? how does that impact on the oil? do i need to change it more often because its been sitting? 

Like my camaro is lucky to see 100 miles a year, some years none!, do i use a oil that is good for engines that get little use ???🙄

and here is a question for you, without giving away brand names... what tbn, zddp, tan numbers should i look for in a oil for say my 398 in the 64 ?

Edited May 2, 20206 yr by 64 kiwi boni

11 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

 

 

that is my exact question Last indian! 🙄

when it comes to all the factors involved, as much as it is about the mix of additives etc in the raw oil, i would have to consider the engine its going into !

i have my old school engines, 313 poly, 389 pontiac, 400 and 350 chev, 360 magnum,  that would ,most likely take one certain oil, but i also have brand new engines ( like my supercharged hemi) that need very specific oil, or is this just a myth ?

And what about cars like mine that sit for months without being started or used? how does that impact on the oil? do i need to change it more often because its been sitting? 

Like my camaro is lucky to see 100 miles a year, some years none!, do i use a oil that is good for engines that get little use ???🙄

and here is a question for you, without giving away brand names... what tbn, zddp, tan numbers should i look for in a oil for say my 398 in the 64 ?

All good questions Kiwi! You are correct that different engines have different needs! So no it’s no myth! From both a base stock oil as well as additives. Still you can narrow the field of oils you need to a degree partly because oils, like lots of things tend to be backward compatible. Such as a GF6 oil is compatible for an engine that took a GF4 oil, but certain differences might rule out a particular oil, such as the unavailability of a viscosity grade! 
Specifically you would need to look for a relative viscosity grade for an engine within a range. Example, if you have a motor that needs and uses a 20W50 Oil because of bearing tolerances, in turn it also runs no catalytic, plus you run it hard or race it! Than your not going to look for a Dexos oil because of their viscosity grades! You are additionally going to want a good anti-wear additive like ZDDP. You’ll want the range to fall somewhere between mid 700ppm which is a little low & 1200ppm, which is on the high side. This is all a lot of work so instead this is why I said you look for a fully formulated diesel oil like Chevron’s Delo 400 or Shell’s Rotella T4. Both have ample amounts of additives, including ZDDP.
Oil sitting in an engine for an extended period of time is ok! Unless the oil is nearing oil change time, than I would always change it before putting it up! Also I would change it if you have fuel dilution or a coolant leak! Even when these two items aren’t bad enough to be a detriment when driving regularly, they create oxidation and acid, so when left sitting for extended periods they tend to etch metal, which is corrosion. 
Good numbers! TBN, well back in the day you use to be able to get a 13 or 14 TBN oil, today good luck! The highest I’ve seen is Delo Multigrade or  Rotella T4 @ 10.1! Need I say more! That said in my opinion the Delo has to much zinc, @ 1500 & sulfated ash @ 14000! Where the Rotella has 1200ppm of zinc and 10000 sulfated ash, much more reasonable. TAN, that is a measurement taken as the oil is degrading and basically can only be made by drawing a sample and sending it to a lab for analysis, but! Good news! That is to be the next segment I start! How to analyze our oil at home by color! 
 

Edited May 2, 20206 yr by Last Indian

Well it looks like i have been using the wrong oil!!

i was recommended amtex power 50...

https://oilintel.co.nz/product/amtex-power-50/

and i have been using it in both my stock 350 in the camaro and the hp 400 in the green ute also have been using it in the 59 plymouth with its 313 poly engine.

clearly my zddp levels are way too high

 I see we dont get Rotella t4 here but is the rimula the same oil ?

Edited May 3, 20206 yr by 64 kiwi boni

20 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Well it looks like i have been using the wrong oil!!

i was recommended amtex power 50...

https://oilintel.co.nz/product/amtex-power-50/

and i have been using it in both my stock 350 in the camaro and the hp 400 in the green ute also have been using it in the 59 plymouth with its 313 poly engine.

clearly my zddp levels are way too high

 I see we dont get Rotella t4 here but is the rimula the same oil ?

Well looking at the Amtex I’m not that concerned! The ZDDP is at the top end of the top for regular oil, not break-in oil. While it’s 1500ppm the sulphated ash is quite low @ 9630! This has a offsetting effect for corrosion long term. Yes it appears that Rimula is a Euro version of the Rotella. The US & Europe have different chemistry because they both approach emissions differently.

so, what happens if you use oil with a high zddp ?🙄

17 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

so, what happens if you use oil with a high zddp ?🙄

Specifically if you regularly run levels of ZDDP over 1500ppm and you just drive regular, no racing and not hot rodding all the time when driving you run the risk of the following depending on oil consumption rates! 
ZDDP work by heat & pressure, but mainly heat! To explain it in layman terms! Because it’s a boundary layer chemistry it only gets activated when there is enough of each. If there isn’t enough it stays dormant in the bulk oil. When there is enough it builds a film. That film is self limiting, meaning when and if the layer builds thick enough it stops. When that film wears down enough it starts to make it again! So in racing, lots of friction, or hot rodding, the film builds up and shrinks continuously, which in turn depletes the ZDDP additive. When you drive more docile nothing much happens to the ZDDP! If you have enough blow-by or valve train leakage that allows oil to enter the combustion chamber; the results are excessive carbon deposits! Substantial more than without ZDDP, because the main byproduct of ZDDP is carbon!
So if you look at what I’ve been saying, and I might not have been saying it well enough! If you are racing or hot rodding, 1200ppm to a max 1500ppm! If you are driving street driving, more docile, getting on it hear and there, 830ppm to 1000ppm is more than enough. If you run a catalytic converter, 700ppm to 900ppm is enough. But the amount of oil that is consumed in the combustion process because of engine condition may change that!
 

Edited May 4, 20206 yr by Last Indian

17 hours ago, Last Indian said:

Specifically if you regularly run levels of ZDDP over 1500ppm and you just drive regular, no racing and not hot rodding all the time when driving you run the risk of the following depending on oil consumption rates! 
ZDDP work by heat & pressure, but mainly heat! To explain it in layman terms! Because it’s a boundary layer chemistry it only gets activated when there is enough of each. If there isn’t enough it stays dormant in the bulk oil. When there is enough it builds a film. That film is self limiting, meaning when and if the layer builds thick enough it stops. When that film wears down enough it starts to make it again! So in racing, lots of friction, or hot rodding, the film builds up and shrinks continuously, which in turn depletes the ZDDP additive. When you drive more docile nothing much happens to the ZDDP! If you have enough blow-by or valve train leakage that allows oil to enter the combustion chamber; the results are excessive carbon deposits! Substantial more than without ZDDP, because the main byproduct of ZDDP is carbon!
So if you look at what I’ve been saying, and I might not have been saying it well enough! If you are racing or hot rodding, 1200ppm to a max 1500ppm! If you are driving street driving, more docile, getting on it hear and there, 830ppm to 1000ppm is more than enough. If you run a catalytic converter, 700ppm to 900ppm is enough. But the amount of oil that is consumed in the combustion process because of engine condition may change that!
 

Oh well that ok then!!  i dont drag race them but i certainly dont sunday drive them either !! 😄

Well! This is going to take some explaining to say the least & I have no doubt there will be skeptics! But,
this is something I’ve done since I was 14 years old! Yes I was young I know hard to believe! But I started working on cars @ 11 & racing @ 14. None the less I had done it so long it was just second nature to me. As I got more and more involved with specialty projects at work that centered around oil quality folks that I worked with were amazed at how accurate I would be about oil conditions when we would get test results back from samples we had taken and I had commented on at the time of extraction. I have always just used a white absorbent paper towel to wipe the oil on and then read the color. This is how I could judge the condition of the oil. In 1998 two colleagues that I had worked with for several years took some interest as to how I did this, so I tried to show them, but no matter how I tried they could not see what I would see! That led me to start working with black light to try to enhance the iridescent quality of the changing components of the oil. This helped some, but there were just to many irons in the fire at that time we all moved on to different projects. Than mid 2003 I approached our Vice President of research about the idea & if there was some way to take chemistry that would enhance a sample of oil when it was wiped on to a treated paper. So in early 2004 a patent was applied for to do just that. Now I’m not a chemist, I had learned much in 35 years, but not how to do that! So through some of my guidance we had arrived at a solution. It wasn’t perfect in my opinion, but I didn’t have the last word. If you what you can see that patent, just google US7754488 patent.

Since then I have found some other ways that seem to enhance color observations better that just wiping oil on a white absorbent paper, which is what I typically have always done, no chemistry on the paper So now I will try explain & show as we go forward. Some of this I will need to figure out how or where I will get samples. As of right now I have oil samples I will show, but they’re all from health engines! Meaning the oil is just aged from use. These samples run from the indian (2000 Grand Prix) @ 500 mile, 2013 Buick @ 2800 & 2012 Buick @ 3300, which is just about due for an oil change! 
So these are a good starting point, but you can also see, when present, fuel dilution, too much blow-by, coolant leaks, emulsion, excessive carbon & abnormal wear!

 

the picture below! Left drop of oil is brand new Oil from my supply. The drop on the right is from the Indian, it has 500 miles on it. It’s a perfect color for the mileage.

this picture below is the Same as above with the addition of the bottom left drop being from 2013 Buick 3.6 direct injection. This oil has 2800 miles on it. If you look close you’ll see the red hue of the oil! You’ll also notice that it has the appearance of a darker center that seem to be speckled ever so slightly! The red hue is oxidation of the oil. The red hue is a good indicator of the oxidation level.

this picture below is again the same as above with the addition of the right lower drop of oil. This drop is from a 2012 Buick 3.6 direct injection. This oil has 3300 miles on it and needs changed soon! Notice the chocolate red color with no outer fringe of red, but if you look close again is an appearance of speckling. This indicates that carbon, varnish and heavy oxidation have taken place and the only thing that will now come from this oil is going to be more negative than the protection the oil can offer! Metal surfaces will start to varnish up & carbon will start to buildup!

Edited May 5, 20206 yr by Last Indian

13 hours ago, Last Indian said:

Well! This is going to take some explaining to say the least & I have no doubt there will be skeptics! But,
this is something I’ve done since I was 14 years old! Yes I was young I know hard to believe! But I started working on cars @ 11 & racing @ 14. None the less I had done it so long it was just second nature to me. As I got more and more involved with specialty projects at work that centered around oil quality folks that I worked with were amazed at how accurate I would be about oil conditions when we would get test results back from samples we had taken and I had commented on at the time of extraction. I have always just used a white absorbent paper towel to wipe the oil on and then read the color. This is how I could judge the condition of the oil. In 1998 two colleagues that I had worked with for several years took some interest as to how I did this, so I tried to show them, but no matter how I tried they could not see what I would see! That led me to start working with black light to try to enhance the iridescent quality of the changing components of the oil. This helped some, but there were just to many irons in the fire at that time we all moved on to different projects. Than mid 2003 I approached our Vice President of research about the idea & if there was some way to take chemistry that would enhance a sample of oil when it was wiped on to a treated paper. So in early 2004 a patent was applied for to do just that. Now I’m not a chemist, I had learned much in 35 years, but not how to do that! So through some of my guidance we had arrived at a solution. It wasn’t perfect in my opinion, but I didn’t have the last word. If you what you can see that patent, just google US7754488 patent.

Since then I have found some other ways that seem to enhance color observations better that just wiping oil on a white absorbent paper, which is what I typically have always done, no chemistry on the paper So now I will try explain & show as we go forward. Some of this I will need to figure out how or where I will get samples. As of right now I have oil samples I will show, but they’re all from health engines! Meaning the oil is just aged from use. These samples run from the indian (2000 Grand Prix) @ 500 mile, 2013 Buick @ 2800 & 2012 Buick @ 3300, which is just about due for an oil change! 
So these are a good starting point, but you can also see, when present, fuel dilution, too much blow-by, coolant leaks, emulsion, excessive carbon & abnormal wear!

 

the picture below! Left drop of oil is brand new Oil from my supply. The drop on the right is from the Indian, it has 500 miles on it. It’s a perfect color for the mileage.

this picture below is the Same as above with the addition of the bottom left drop being from 2013 Buick 3.6 direct injection. This oil has 2800 miles on it. If you look close you’ll see the red hue of the oil! You’ll also notice that it has the appearance of a darker center that seem to be speckled ever so slightly! The red hue is oxidation of the oil. The red hue is a good indicator of the oxidation level.

this picture below is again the same as above with the addition of the right lower drop of oil. This drop is from a 2012 Buick 3.6 direct injection. This oil has 3300 miles on it and needs changed soon! Notice the chocolate red color with no outer fringe of red, but if you look close again is an appearance of speckling. This indicates that carbon, varnish and heavy oxidation have taken place and the only thing that will now come from this oil is going to be more negative than the protection the oil can offer! Metal surfaces will start to varnish up & carbon will start to buildup!

Now thats one super intense read that Patent is Last india !!!!

but i cant completely understand your oil colour diagnosis 

4 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Now thats one super intense read that Patent is Last india !!!!

but i cant completely understand your oil colour diagnosis 

Can you explain what you would like me to explain to try and make things more clear? I understand there might easily be a learning curve!

Light color = NEW oil

Gets darker over the life of the oil.

Coffee color=  Change it......

BUT.......  I have bought mainly used cars over the years.  Have changed the dark oil w/specks  only to have the new oil get dark within  with in a week or two.  You can bet there is burnt sludge in the valve covers and whatever migrated to the oil pan and maybe even pluggin your pickup screen. Have tried changing the oil w/detergent oils.  Standard gas stations pushed that years ago when I worked there as a kid.  Would change once a month with no cleanout or extended time before getting dark again.  Valve covers are nothin to pop off and carefully clean out the sludge.  Alot of cars you can't pull the oil pan without lifting or pulling the motor. An old mechanic (@ the Standard station) would run a quart of fuel oil and let run down and sit in the pan.  Then run a cheap quart of oil through to clean out without starting.   After a couple weeks, change the oil again.  I was always shocked to see what the fuel oil cleaned out, but at the same time I was always wondering what was left floating around the pan.  He never had anything come back to the shop with related problems.   My point being, the oil can be brand new and still get dark in no time in older used engines that did not get the care most of us give our rides.  The visual test can't be 100% for all engines,  but I have always used your visual and smell test as a gauge.

 

19 minutes ago, JUSTA6 said:

smell test

Ok, I'm curious. Can you explain more what smells you are looking for and what they mean?

1 hour ago, Stewy said:

Ok, I'm curious. Can you explain more what smells you are looking for and what they mean?

Dark oil or trans fluid that smells burnt, you can usually count on a sludged up engine.  Burnt trans fluid usually means slipping clutches.  Gives you a heads up to get it in to a trans shop or a walk away when buying a used car.  Same with the motor oil,  start lookin at how easy it is to get the oil pan off and are you willing to take on that much work.  If you have ever poped a valve cover off or pulled an oil pan with that thick black snot in it.   You will never forget.

5 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Light color = NEW oil

Gets darker over the life of the oil.

Coffee color=  Change it......

BUT.......  I have bought mainly used cars over the years.  Have changed the dark oil w/specks  only to have the new oil get dark within  with in a week or two.  You can bet there is burnt sludge in the valve covers and whatever migrated to the oil pan and maybe even pluggin your pickup screen. Have tried changing the oil w/detergent oils.  Standard gas stations pushed that years ago when I worked there as a kid.  Would change once a month with no cleanout or extended time before getting dark again.  Valve covers are nothin to pop off and carefully clean out the sludge.  Alot of cars you can't pull the oil pan without lifting or pulling the motor. An old mechanic (@ the Standard station) would run a quart of fuel oil and let run down and sit in the pan.  Then run a cheap quart of oil through to clean out without starting.   After a couple weeks, change the oil again.  I was always shocked to see what the fuel oil cleaned out, but at the same time I was always wondering what was left floating around the pan.  He never had anything come back to the shop with related problems.   My point being, the oil can be brand new and still get dark in no time in older used engines that did not get the care most of us give our rides.  The visual test can't be 100% for all engines,  but I have always used your visual and smell test as a gauge.

 

Give my buddy JustA a cigar! Make it two! I hope nobody here thinks I think that I’m smarter of more accomplished at doing this! I’ve just done this a long long time & because of my line of work I got to see a very large array of conditions. So I have been able to correlate engine conditions to oil conditions. But to simplify it, most folks drain oil conditions, where there are no unusual circumstances, JustA’s statement is dead on! 

Light color = NEW oil

Gets darker over the life of the oil.

Coffee color=  Change it......

That smell! That’s a combination of fractured oil molecules, blowby & additives that have been oxidized. In tranny fluid, it’s oil molecules that have been fractured and additives that have been oxidized as well as fractured. Again the oxidation is obvious, by color! The tranny fluid goes from a crisp red or pinkish color, depending on which fluid. To a browner appearing fluid.

Oil as well as additive molecules fracture at about 350c, that’s 660f. Now you may not think your engine or tranny ever reach that temperature, but under certain conditions at very thin film thickness it can and does. Places like automatic clutch plates, bearing surfaces, etc.. I have done may test engine experiments where I thermal-coupled multiple areas of an engine or transmission, you would be astounded as to what temperatures reach in specific areas.   

The situation JustA specks of, as did I, with regard to the speckling in the oil & than in turn the sludge in an engine and cleaning it up! These are two different events, but they are interrelated. The speckling in the oil drop I spoke of above is from the natural combustion process (aka blowby) as well as valve train drain back! Also there is a portion that comes from the ZDDP! As I stated before, when ZDDP is not consumed through friction, read that as harder use, it stays in the bulk oil. Then eventually when the oil is in the engine long enough, being exposed to regular engine heat, blowby, the combustion process, a portion returns to the sump over and over again. This interacts with the ZDDP and creates sludge! This is why many older engines from the “60s”, “70s” & “80s” would have that thick sludge in them. That era ran the highest amounts of ZDDP in oils. This is why I have stated over and over, unless you’re racing or you are really running the car hard constantly, higher amounts of ZDDP are counter productive,. Because sludge in of itself causes wear!

Edited May 6, 20206 yr by Last Indian

10 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Now thats one super intense read that Patent is Last india !!!!

but i cant completely understand your oil colour diagnosis 

sorry Last indian, it was my fault spelling error!! i ment... " but i CAN completely understand your oil colour diagnosis"😜

 i completely agree with Justa about oil in cars you bought being black and within weeks your new oil going the same colour.

 i have a van that has had oil changes under warranty for its first 100000 kms by the the dealership, and i can see build up of black muck at the oil cap, it was being changed every 10000kms as per warranty.

 now that is out of warranty i do the oil changes myself to save me $400 each time !!😡and every change,that oil is just dark brown black very dissapointing for a engine thats now only at 130000kms 

4 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

sorry Last indian, it was my fault spelling error!! i ment... " but i CAN completely understand your oil colour diagnosis"😜

 i completely agree with Justa about oil in cars you bought being black and within weeks your new oil going the same colour.

 i have a van that has had oil changes under warranty for its first 100000 kms by the the dealership, and i can see build up of black muck at the oil cap, it was being changed every 10000kms as per warranty.

 now that is out of warranty i do the oil changes myself to save me $400 each time !!😡and every change,that oil is just dark brown black very dissapointing for a engine thats now only at 130000kms 

Yup! That’s what happens & there’s no way to do it right except pull it tear it apart & rebuild it 🤭. Or leave it and just keep changing the oil every 500 miles till it stops! And I’ve never done that to a really dirty sludge up motor so I can’t say it would stop! 😳! New oil, because of the high TBN + new detergents etc. will clean varnish & sludge from that type of motor very quickly, but only till the contamination level overwhelms/depletes the TBN & additives. Which happens very quickly! So you need to remove that oil or it will simply rebuild what it removed. When we run an oil test in an engine, a clean engine, then we run a new test in that engine we do at least 2 full flushes. Depending on the oil the test and the engine it can be three and the flush times can be anywhere from an hour to 150 miles!

Edited May 7, 20206 yr by Last Indian

ok, so without being a scientist whats the best way to manage your engines oil ? by colour? mileage? smell, or all the above. ?🙄

and if you have a dirty engine whats the best way to clean it up without pulling it apart?

i do like your recommendation on engines that sit for long periods having clean oil which reduces  corrosion issues , but having said that whats the best thing to do for a engine that sits and you want to preserve it over a long period, do you start it and run it for 30 mins, or does it need to be taken for a run to load it up ?

How important is oil filter brand choice ???  

 sorry last Indian for all the questions, but i do enjoy learning from people who have " been there done that" 

 

14 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

$400 each time !!

🤯 That's around $240 USD. Wow... (and I thought my oil changes were expensive at around $50 USD for the 5 quarts of oil & filter).

 

1 hour ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

but i do enjoy learning from people who have " been there done that"

Ditto.

Edited May 7, 20206 yr by Stewy

8 hours ago, Stewy said:

🤯 That's around $240 USD. Wow... (and I thought my oil changes were expensive at around $50 USD for the 5 quarts of oil & filter).

 

Ditto.

yes Stewy, i think this is why when you buy a new van the price is cheap, as they get you with the service work !! i had no choice but to let them service it while it was under warranty and thats been 10 services over 4 years at $500 ish for each one = and extra 5 k on the price 🙄

 oh the kick in the guts was the 100k service that one was $780 😡😡

 and that was their last one !!   they wont see me back there again

 

so, last indian, what should we be looking for in our oil and how do we spot dogdie oil products?🙄

in the rockauto news letter today.......

 

 

Diesel Oil, Flat Tappets & Gas Engines

"Zinc" or "Phosphorus" on an oil bottle label usually is referring to the additive zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP helps prevent wear, especially where the camshaft contacts the lifter in flat tappet lifter engines. Newer engines (since the late 1980s) have roller valve lifters and therefore do not benefit as much from ZDDP.

The anti-wear benefits of ZDDP were recognized in the 1950s. The oil of the 1950s had only about 300 parts per million (ppm) ZDDP. The concentration of ZDDP in motor oil gradually increased until it reached a maximum of 1200 to 1400 ppm in the 1980s. (More than 1400 ppm of ZDDP in oil actually starts to increase engine wear.)

Unfortunately, it was discovered that ZDDP makes catalytic converters for gasoline engines less effective by gradually coating the catalyst material with phosphate. To satisfy the latest API Service "SN" oil standard, oil manufacturers only put 600 to 800 ppm ZDDP in their oil.

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil

For over a decade, car enthusiasts with flat tappet lifter engines have been debating whether the 600-800 ppm ZDDP in new "SN" oil is enough protection. Oil experts say that it is enough wear protection once the engine is broken in.

The flat tappet lifter equipped engines in my family fleet were all broken in around a half century ago. I still like to dote on my old cars by giving them a little extra ZDDP as long as it does not require too much hassle or extra money. Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil has been one convenient option. It does not qualify for the "SN" rating because it has too much ZDDP and it is "not recommended for extended use in vehicles with catalytic converters."

Another new, less expensive possibility may be the 10W-30 oil made for some of the most modern diesel engines. Some old car enthusiasts have long recommended oil for diesel engines because it frequently contained more ZDDP. Unfortunately, diesel oil was typically only available in a heavy weight such as 15W-40.

Motorcraft's 10W-30 Oil for Diesels

The label on Motorcraft's 10W-30 oil for diesels says it "contains more than 1000 ppm phosphorus for better wear protection." That is 200 to 400 more ppm at little or no additional cost compared to "SN" 10W-30 oils. The Motorcraft diesel oil label also says, "do not use in gasoline engines equipped with catalysts."

I am testing the Motorcraft 10W-30 for diesels in the 351 under the hood of my 1971 Ford LTD convertible. However, I am not recommending that anyone else use oils labeled "diesel" in any gasoline engines. Please consult your vehicle's owners manual, the appropriate authorities, legal council, etc. before choosing a new type of oil for your specific engine. (For most vehicles, simply look under "Engine" and "Oil" in the RockAuto.com catalog to see manufacturer recommended choices. Oils listed by weight (10W-30, 0W-40, etc.) are found in the "Tools & Universal Parts" tab, under "Engine" and finally "Oil.")

Tom Taylor,
RockAuto.com