foreign vs american discussion

[Killiger2009]

You guys want to continue this heres a thread but keep it intelligent and polite or this thread will go away.

hey as long as u dont think its a race car or it is better than american motors then no worries

[[ChaosweaveR]]

...or it is better than american motors then no worries

Umm...what?

[Killiger2009]

honda isnt better than domestic

[kaymo]

i agree the cavi front end is better looking. i like the slant nose, looks more aerodynamic and less "sedanish" without the (vertically) flat headlights

killiger- uhm yeah... we're gonna have to have a talk arent we? haha

yes, my CRX is an ex race car. its been retired from autoX racing for a couple years. i put it in storage after i realized it was too fast and too loud for the street (104 mph ticket, and i was slowing down)

i pulled it out of storage after my 1.3L crx daily blew @ 253K. i think the bottom end is fine, the cam siezed in the head. i will rebuild that one after the SI gets rebuilt. i plan on trying to get its original fuel economy (51 city 67 hwy) and thats with a 3 barrel carburetor in 1984!

as long as i dont think its better than a domestic? yeah you're gonna have to convince me different on this one, because i know better. my SI might not be the fastest car in a straight line, but its quicker than almost everything around the corners. if you dont believe me, then you should talk to some guys who actually race them. a first gen CRX SI will even take a new lotus elise in a corner. thats track proven. sorry bud

with stock motor, intake manifold and exhaust manifold, big autozone air filter and 2 inch side exit exhaust, factory torsion bars and springs, factory ride height, tokico blues, and race slicks, this little import spanked every EVO and STI at autoX. they kept playing with their boost controllers asking us what motor we had swapped. we even took the 2nd gen CRX SI that had full suspension slammed to the ground WITH slicks as well.

now i know that isnt the import VS domestic comparison im sure you would be looking for, but to put it frankly, there were no domestics that were anywhere close to either CRX, or any of the EVOs or STIs that attended.

im not a drag racer.

if i cared about beating you in a straight line i would go borrow something american. dont worry tho, a turbo kit is in the works for the original 1.5 engine that should allow it to keep up with most v8 cars. its all about power to weight guys, and my rex weighs only 1650 lbs.

to put it simply, honda IS better than domestic. better fuel economy, better design, and easier to work on. cheaper to own. have you even ever driven a honda? all the hondas i have EVER driven, even the POOR condition ones, make newer domestics seem like they were build by cavemen. tighter steering, better handling, better power (4cyl vs 4cyl) AND fuel economy.

so dont go comparing apples to oranges. you cant say your v6 blah blah is faster than my 4cyl honda. but since my 4cyl honda HAS beaten v6 domestics.... well you get the point

[Ringo64]

Please make this an intellectual debate if this goes any further thank you...

I've encountered quite the opposite with my American cars and those of the Japanese import. Everything in the import seemed like it was made by a caveman and every single time my sister brings her car to those lovely people at Toyota, they claim the steering wheel is supposed to shake, I'm supposed to be getting sick from the seat shaking me up and down and the suspension/shocks was supposed to go out within 25,000 miles. Needles to say this was my families first and last import or non-GM vehicle. I also been in Honda's as well and they all made me long for at least my '95 Monte Carlo which has been beaten to hell and back and has driven better than these.

I could have encountered straight import lemons but GM has been nothing but wonderful from the first time I sat in my '95 Monte Carlo. Personally I'll pay the $400 more for my V6 and a much better driving experience but that's my opinion and another reason why this world is so great, we all have our own opinions and can express them!

[Jedi3]

I suggest ending this line of conversation for multiple reasons. This is an American car club and you wont get too many to agree with you and it will ruen your wonderful build thread. You have the right to your opinion but I think this is the wrong thread for it and probably the wrong forum. I just see this going badly for all parties involved or may get involved , hope you understand.

Thanks Jedi3

[kaymo]

sorry guys let me clarify some things,

i AM a chevy guy. i was a chevy guy BEFORE i was a honda guy. i have a 53 bel air, 66 impala, 95 bellsouth van. i have owned a 77 suburban 454, 92 pickup v6, and now own this 94 pontiac sunbird

i have loved every chevy i have driven. i even love this sunbird. but its not without its faults. my honda spanks it in every catergory. but a 94 sunbird is a HORRIBLE year and model to use as an example of chevy's finest. i would hope yall would agree that these years of J body were... sad.

my 454 suburban? way cool truck. towing package, big engine all that. but it got 12 mpg on a good day, and sometimes had trouble getting out of its own way. and its 10 bolt rear end was pretty weak. oh and the quadraflop is a pain in the butt.

95 bellsouth van i LOVED it was a SWB so it handled great and would spin around on a dime. the 4.3 v6 was a powerhouse and its trans (which was a reman as it was stickered as such) always shifted smooth and strong.

but alas, it had a burnt valve, missed on one cyl, and ate gas like it was going out of style. still was fast tho! and again, its 10 bolt rear end HOWLED like a bitch

my grandmas 92 chevy pickup 4.3 v6 was great. worked great and i loved it. left me stranded once with a bad fuel pump but with a couple ratchet straps i was able to raise and lower the tank without incident. other than that it was a GREAT truck right up until some Ahole in a suburban left 74ft of rubber before knocking me 15 feet sideways and totalling the truck.

please dont take what i said as me domestic bashing. i have owned and driven and worked on many imports AND domestics. i have good and bad things to say about BOTH. but to lay a blanket statement of "dont try to think your honda is a race car or better than DOMESTIC" is foolish. my honda IS a race car and IS better than ANY comparable domestic. i dare you to find a comparable car in 87 that can touch it.

now the imports. nissan makes things impossible to work on, so you must remove half the components in the engine bay to get to something stupid. also their electrics are SHIT. toyota's newer cars are soul-less plastic boxes of sadness, but usually they march on to 300k even with severe abuse. older toyotas are great and their trucks are some of the toughest in the world. dont believe me go watch top gear.

suzuki i dont really consider a car company at all.

im sure there is an import i missed, but as far as honda goes, they make awesome motorcycles and great cars. yes there are too many people that slap a rice cannon and lime green paint on their 95 DX and think they have a race car. dont worry, i am not one of those. i shun those people believe me!

i also believe that the newer you get, the crappier you get. i would take a 91 accord over a 99 accord ANY DAY OF THE WEEK because the (body) build quality went down around 2000. (engine quality excluded, honda engines are of the highest quality) today they look like any other import OR domestic. their leaps and bounds in technology they used to make seems to have slowed to a crawl which has been disappointing to say the least.

i like old chevys and i like NEW chevys, but the 90's were a bad time for american cars. they became disposable. they wanted them to break so you would buy a new one. its not opinion its fact. why else would they make you disassemble half the engine to replace the starter. i can change the starter in my honda without removing anything! and its never gone bad, not even in my 253k mile honda!

you're right this discussion probably doesnt belong in my thread, but i got called out so im gonna have to reply to it. im not saying import>domestic or honda>chevy because its APPLES TO ORANGES almost 90% the time, but, when comparing THIS 94 pontiac sunbird to lets say, my 89 Honda civic which was also a four door four cyl automatic with 200k miles on it vs sunbird's 170k, the honda STILL mopped up in every category. it was faster, handled 100x better, better gas mileage, easier to work on, more interior room (you can not believe me if you want, the sunbird is more cramped, ive had sex in both) the only thing the sunbird takes it on is TRUNK SPACE but since it sags at the slightest bit of weight, and the honda would only bottom out with the trunk full and a couple fat people riding along.... it still wins in carry capacity (in stock form)

so guys, dont hate because i love hondas. dont hate because honda beats many things in certain categories. hondas have their place, and are FUN to SPANK when they think they have something!!! but never underestimate them. ive ridden in a twincharged LS-Vtec 92 hatchback that put down 450 hp out of a 2L engine. nothing to scoff at. thank god most of those ricer assholes ARENT running around with that much power.

oh and the built by cavemen comment was mainly for dodge, specificly their neon. (shudder) and ill go ahead and include the ford Taurus as well... im sure you guys can agree THOSE are pieces of shit

[Jedi3]

You guys want to continue this heres a thread but keep it intelligent and polite or this thread will go away.

[kaymo]

thanks jedi i was too lazy to start another one.

just to add a side note, i do believe chevy is catching up in (or regaining) quality and technology, definately moreso than ford and dodge. my comparison was more about 80's and 90's domestic vs 80's and 90's hondas... which were honda's golden years IMHO.

chevy will ALWAYS my first car love... but alas i can afford to fuel up a chevy most of the time

[Killiger2009]

thx jedi and it but like they dont look godd if u want to turn heads u need looks and something that doesnt sound like a giant bumble bee mowing his lawn plus its way to much work to twincharge crap just supercharge a LS1 motor and youll put down 400 something easy and thats single and they sound better

id drive italian supercars or porshes or audis but those are the only foreign cars id drive...ever

[Sam]

Doesn't matter to me. As long as i like the car it doesn't matter who makes it IMO

[Ringo64]

One thing you got to remember about Domestics is economy cars weren't really our forte until probably the 2000s, cause face it we like everything big; our motors, our boobs and just overall our cars. So when your comparing a company, for instance Honda, which specializes in economy cars to a company that's big on "Bigger is Better" (say GM, Ford, Chrysler) then taking some time to scale down, learn what works and so forth has to be made and I have to say 10 years is long but how long has Honda, Toyota and all the specialized economy cars been around? decades and they're still having issues with things, so basically everybody will need some improvement and adjustment to what is needed and so forth.

[Killiger2009]

i kno thanx to bootleggers in the 20's americas cars have power

[kaymo]

thx jedi and it but like they dont look godd if u want to turn heads u need looks and something that doesnt sound like a giant bumble bee mowing his lawn plus its way to much work to twincharge crap just supercharge a LS1 motor and youll put down 400 something easy and thats single and they sound better

id drive italian supercars or porshes or audis but those are the only foreign cars id drive...ever

ok seriously dude, did you learn english from miss south carolina?

"and it but like they dont look godd" <---LOL i have no idea

no one said anything about turning heads. we're talking about what is a better car. not better looking or what sounds better.

yes, i know that most RICERS put bumblebee exhaust on their car. BUT GUESS WHAT. you know what kind of cars i have seen the those rice cannons on the MOST? DOMESTIC RICE. i see a dodge neon every day with a fart can. i see more cavi's and neons and even ford rangers with fart pipes than i do hondas.

its too much work to twincharge crap? dude, thats because you dont understand what twincharging is really for. you can put a single turbo on a honda motor and put down 600 hp (i know someone that does in his 86 hatchback) but its whats called a DYNO QUEEN. that means it puts down that number at HIGH RPM. the idea about twincharging is to have the supercharger putting out plenty of boost right off of idle, and the turbo kicking in at mid range to continue the boost after the supercharger runs out of breath.

and yes, you can put a supercharger on an LS1, but you arent going to put down anything. an LS1 is a motor, not a vehicle. and it also doesnt fit in my honda (without modfication, since someone has put a SBC in a first gen CRX before) ooo it sounds better.... IT STILL DONT FIT IN MY CAR. sure anyone can go out and buy a trans am and have a fast car. where is YOUR ls1 if its soooo simple???

and that brings me to another point. so what if you can get 400 hp out of a v8 chevy? i am probably making that WITHOUT a supercharger on my fully build 400 SBC! getting power out of a v8.. big deal. seen it six ways to sunday. HONDA WAS MAKING 100 HP PER LITER BACK in 91! WITHOUT THE USE OF TURBO. and thats a FACTORY ENGINE WITHOUT MODS. thats the kind of power that is impressive. what if your LS1 was 100 hp per liter? 570 hp naturally aspirated? that would be impressive

not that the LS1 ISNT impressive. it is in its own right, and is a great motor. im not bashing it. im just saying, woo hoo so your v8 makes more power. there is a RPR member with a CRX boosting his ew4 1.5L engine to 225 WHP 230 torque!!

so when do you think you are gonna be driving these italian supercars, porsches and audis? anytime soon? no? well then when gas reaches 5 dollars a gallon i guess you will be stuck with your bicycle since you refuse to drive an "evil import". which raises the question, when you say that domestics are better than imports, and you say you would NEVER drive any of those imports, how exactly can you compare something you've admittedly NEVER DRIVEN???

look, i read your progression thread and saw your OT rant post. i realize you are only 19, so i have no problem excusing your ignorance. perhaps this is only your first or second car.

im only 23 but have owned, worked on, or driven everything from a ford to a chevy to a dodge to isuzu, nissan, honda, toyota, bmw, audi, subaru and so on and so forth.

admittedly i have never driven an italian supercar, or a newer porsche (im not gonna include my dad's 65 porsche, its a different league)

but i do know that without truly knowing anything about owning, driving, maintaining, or repairing those cars, i cant really offer a VALID opinion on the subject other than to say "yah theyz supa hott yo~!"

so, please go actually drive some imports (not your buddy/arch enemies riced out honda) and gather up a VALID opinion before you go offering it too much.

btw did you ever figure out how to get those LED lights installed or did you take it somewhere?

im sorry if i got personal there killiger, but you kinda spraypainted a target on yourself when you wrote this one. dont take any of my jabs too personally, i'm just a sarcastic asshole with a dry sense of humor.

RINGO64- you are very correct, and i submit to all of those points, except one:

"I have to say 10 years is long but how long has Honda, Toyota and all the specialized economy cars been around? decades and they're still having issues with things"

what "issues with things" do you speak of with honda? and other than the recent possessed gas pedal debacle, what issues with toyota? i am in no way excusing toyota's recent downfall, but other than this one i cant really recall any major issues with toyota, and i DEFINATELY cant recall any problems Hondas have had.... can you elaborate?

:nom_noms:

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Euro > Japanese

I'd take an Audi RS4 over any Honda, ever.

[Roadwarrior]

One problem that i know of that Honda has had an i can say from experience is that their auto tyrannies suck well in the accords anyways other than that i would have to say i liked my old accord but i still prefer my G6 it really comes down to what you prefer both American and Domestic have their issues just my own .02cents

' date='Mar 3 2010, 04:31 PM' post='14362']

Euro > Japanese

I'd take an Audi RS4 over any Honda, ever.

I would love to own a new Audi

[kaymo]

oh yeah and i forgot to ask.... Jedi said this was an american car forum... but isnt the pontiac vibe simply a rebadged toyota matrix? and the new GTO a holden?

saturn VUE? yeah that comes with honda's 3.5 L v6

and from cars.com:

"Globalized production, of course, also means that a number of popular models already aren't as homegrown as you might think. Take cars like the Ford Mustang, Chevy Impala and Chrysler 300: The Michigan-built Mustang has a disappointing 65 percent domestic-parts content rating, while the 300 and Impala are built in Canada. What's more, America's beloved retro hatchbacks, the Chevy HHR and soon-to-be-discontinued Chrysler PT Cruiser, are built in Mexico. The pint-sized Chevy Aveo is built in South Korea."

so when we say american cars are better.... what cars are you talking about? the imported ones?

' date='Mar 3 2010, 04:31 PM' post='14362']

Euro > Japanese

I'd take an Audi RS4 over any Honda, ever.

ok can we talk COMPARABLE CARS and not

"oh ill take that bmw m3 over that honda accord any day"

well DUHHHHH

oh and roadwarrior, i that honda auto trannies suck. ive had one, and never one since. that being said however, i have seen honda auto transmissions working fine at 300k miles!

it all depends on HOW IT WAS TREATED and IF IT WAS PROPERLY MAINTAINED which means CHANGING THE FLUID AT RECOMMENDED INTERVALS.

NONE of the broken auto trans i have seen or driven had their fluid ever checked, changed, or not BEAT ON by a ricer that thought changing gears in an auto was NECESSARY

[[ChaosweaveR]]

oh yeah and i forgot to ask.... Jedi said this was an american car forum... but isnt the pontiac vibe simply a rebadged toyota matrix? and the new GTO a holden?

saturn VUE? yeah that comes with honda's 3.5 L v6

and from cars.com:

"Globalized production, of course, also means that a number of popular models already aren't as homegrown as you might think. Take cars like the Ford Mustang, Chevy Impala and Chrysler 300: The Michigan-built Mustang has a disappointing 65 percent domestic-parts content rating, while the 300 and Impala are built in Canada. What's more, America's beloved retro hatchbacks, the Chevy HHR and soon-to-be-discontinued Chrysler PT Cruiser, are built in Mexico. The pint-sized Chevy Aveo is built in South Korea."

so when we say american cars are better.... what cars are you talking about? the imported ones?

I already knew all of that. Companies outsource. And? It's still a GM, Chrysler or Ford at the end of the day.

My GA was built in Lansing, Michigan.

so when we say american cars are better.... what cars are you talking about? the imported ones?

ok can we talk COMPARABLE CARS and not

"oh ill take that bmw m3 over that honda accord any day"

well DUHHHHH

Touché.

Well in that case, an S2000 or NSX, I'd still nab an Audi RS4.

[Jedi3]

Ok here is my issue with foreign cars they have a long line of hiding and not admitting the need for recalls and it has finally caught up with them aka Toyota. Also when alot of these companies do a recall they have been known to do it in there home land and when thats complete them do it in the US. I am as hard core as they come when it comes to American cars. My dad put food on the table running American car dealer for 40 years and its in my blood. I have been in the business for two years and may be forced to work for KIA soon and if I cant find a job with GM, ford or Chry I will be leaving the car industry for something else. Yes its the big 3's fault for underestimating them for too may years and not getting serious about quality and 4 banners. But on the other hand I have NEVER EVER had any major issues with any of my American cars. My 1981 Monty was bullet proof and would put it up against any Honda of the same era. I also think its this country's fault to a certain extent not supporting American company's and out governments fault too. Did you know the foreign car company's that make cars in the US dont have to follow the same rules and dont have to be part of those thugs called the UAW. Because of that it costs us $2,000.00 per car more to produce a car that is BS IMO. DId you also know that the Japanese government had cas for clunkers and did not include American cars till our government called BS on them. But we took care of them and they were the big winners when we had it. Did you know that Japan puts a limit on how many car the big 3 are allowd to sell in there country so when we hit that limmet and there is still people that want one its tuff shit go buy a Honda instead. This type of crap needs to stop or we need to start imposing the same crap on them! Also the money the UAW has cost the big 3 over the years has alot to do with why our quality when down so we could TRY to compete with their pricing. The UAW NEEDS to go away there time and tactics are so archaic. Do you know till the big collapse the UAW made the big 3 pay there workers when the manufacture diddent need to make cars. So lets say Chevy closed down the plant for two week because they dident need to make any Cavilers the UAW made them pay them 90% of there pay anyways. Lets also talk about how the UAW dosent like something so they strike till the get there way like a BIG baby. Do you remember when the big 3 said we need to do sweeping pay cuts to save GM & Chry or to company would go under and cease to exist. What did they do tell us to go pound sand there not taking a pay cut. Them fuckers make like 40 to 60 bucks and hour to do what put a car together. Does this country forget that the big 3 gave all our troops jobs after each war, creat the 401 k, create profit sharing, companies paying for there workers health care and hell lets be frank building this country ect ect ect. Dont for get what huge role the Jeep Willie played in WWII if it wasent for Jeep we may be speaking German right now. Oldsmobile making airplane engines in WWI and so on and so on. How many jobs is America going to give to other country's before it realizes it has Fucked itself? My GOD just to save a buck or two!!! Well you wont have that buck or two to buy anything if we keep giving all our jobs away.

there is so so so much I could say on the subject but I need to take a breath.

but thats why I hate foreign cars.

[kaymo]

jedi, you also make excellent points and i agree with most of it.

however.

one-its mostly apples and oranges with your monte vs a honda, but honda still built bulletproof civics in 81. but its no monte!

two- japan HAS to limit the number of american cars sold there. japan loves american stuff as much as riceboys love JDM shit. if every japanese person bought an escolade, their small little crowded island WOULD SINK INTO THE SEA. there just ISNT the room for as many american cars there as we have imports here!

three- your arguements all go towards the politics of the issue. i agree with them mostly but i thought we were talking about quality of the cars, and as you said yourself its taken the big three a long time to get serious about quality!!! it took the japanese kicking their asses to get them in gear. they brought it on themselves. if they built a better econobox that was a retarded fast go kart, id have an american one. but alas honda does it better!

chaosweaver- yes they outsource, but to what extent? there comes a point where its just not an american car anymore. especially if its built in SOUTH KOREA

[Ringo64]

oh yeah and i forgot to ask.... Jedi said this was an american car forum... but isnt the pontiac vibe simply a rebadged toyota matrix? and the new GTO a holden?

saturn VUE? yeah that comes with honda's 3.5 L v6

One thing to say on this is joint ventures and comparable business sharing, practices in ALL businesses, not just the car industry. I can't really remember exactly but in exchange for the Vibe, GM gave Toyota some Caviler parts, for the life of me I cna't remember but it's in that type. Its business sharing, trying new markets giving each company a benefit. GM made a deal with Holden because hell its a brilliant idea. Bring a brilliant idea of a car to the States and rebadge it under a trust-worthy name! The average person would have been like WTF is a "Holden Monaro?" Plus the US isn't the only one to take a Holden product and rebadge it as one of their own

Another thing about the Saturn VUE with Honda's engine is simple and it goes back to what Joe was saying (which I 100% agree with) and its what I've been saying in the paragraph above. Why pay workers all this money when we can get an engine for cheaper? Again its not my philosophy but its a great way to save money in which stupid Unions and other things have cost them.

[kaymo]

can get a BETTER engine cheaper

remember, pretty much every honda motor was designed and built by its racing dept. then they send the nice aluminum race bred engine over to the car division where they hang a bunch of heavy pieces of cast steel on it and slap it in every passenger car and van that comes down the line

thats why the normal engine life for a honda is 300k. i dont know how many WRECKED 300k mile hondas ive seen in the JY!!!!!

[Crimson]

oh yeah and i forgot to ask.... Jedi said this was an american car forum... but isnt the pontiac vibe simply a rebadged toyota matrix? and the new GTO a holden?

saturn VUE? yeah that comes with honda's 3.5 L v6

U sure about the 3.5 being honda? and an LS1/LS2 is about as american as apple pie. the vibe=no excuse

[Jedi3]

When Saturn was doing things without GM's interference the VUE had a honda engine one year. (2003)

Jim thay traded for Transmissions for the Vibe and yes long ago Toyota did buy Cavilers from GM to sell as the Toyota Cavalier in Japan.

[Jedi3]

I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT OTHER FORUMS COULD LEARN SOMETHING FROM US TODAY. YOU CAN HAVE THESE TYPES OF DISCUSSIONS AND NOT RESORT TO NAME CALLING, HAVING THE THREAD LOCKED AND PEOPLE GETTING BANNED. THANKS FOR KEEPING IT INTELLIGENT FOREVER PONTIAC BRAVO TO EVERYONE THAT HAS CONTRIBUTED!

even you with your F'ed up love for them Hondas kaymo. J/K