Havoc's Questions Post.

[havoc1482]

Its strange. Starting in '77 the name "Phoenix" was a top trim for the Ventura (The trim was the most luxurious of any Pontiac x-body) and then it replaced the Ventura entirely in '78 as its own model. I've seen 78 and 79 Phoenix's with both kinds. When the Phoenix was changed to the FWD x-body (Chevy Citation) It seems to have the split tails (aka not my setup).

Like, when I go to car domain and look up Pontiac Phoenix, the '78, and '79 results all come back with a mix of the different tails.

The only thing I can possibly fathom as a reason for the difference is the trim. There is the base Phoenix and the LJ. I have an LJ. This would explain why I don't see the strip setup on the '77s because it technically was a Ventura.

[Frosty]

I think you have reasoned out the answer to your own question Havoc. Nice job and a nice bit of research.

You probably should contact your local DMV and perhaps your insurance company that the VIN is wrong. You don't want that info screwed up.

[Ringo64]

I think you have reasoned out the answer to your own question Havoc. Nice job and a nice bit of research.

You probably should contact your local DMV and perhaps your insurance company that the VIN is wrong. You don't want that info screwed up.

[havoc1482]

Totally reviving this thread.

 

The last couple posts in my "Farmall Progression" thread went onto the topic of the Phoenix. Frosty and I were talking about ground clearance issues, proper rim/tire size for the X-body ect. This is the last post I made:

 

 

 

I just measured the rim and tire width. Looks like 15x8? 

 

I found these local. I might buy them because two of my current once leak around the bead, and they aren't Pontiac. Would these be a correct fit for the Phoenix? Rally II 15x7s  https://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/5020516816.html

 

I also found a set of 14x7s for sale http://hartford.craigslist.org/pts/4999807732.html

 

What do you think?

 

Also, I have another question. Whats a good strategy to remove some of the rust around the wheel wells and stop it until someday I can get the car painted or something? Its causing the paint to bubble and I want to stop it cold before it eats too much. I was thinking I take the chrome trim off and sand\brush it down and throw some preventive primer and some cheap paint to keep it from getting worse?

 

I don't care about ruining the look (taking paint off and what not) if thats what it takes to stop deterioration of the body. Id rather be proactive so I can work in it small steps at a time.

[Ghost]

...I was thinking I take the chrome trim off and sand\brush it down and throw some preventive primer and some cheap paint to keep it from getting worse?

 

that sounds like your best bet.

[Frosty]

Havoc - the biggest factory rim in the Rally IIs Pontiac made were the 15 x 7s. 15x8 Honycomb and Snowflake wheels came along later. You should be okay with either set so long as the bolt patter is 5 x 4.75, which is the same as the GTO/Firebird. I checked to make sure the X-body platform carried the same bolt pattern. So you have your choice of rims, although if the chrome rings are in good shape, the 14s might be the better buy since the wheels are already painted (albeit used). The 15s you have to buy everthing else, paint (argent silver and charcoal), center caps, and trim rings (if you want them). 

 

You might want to buy a fresh set of chrome lug nuts to go with these new wheels.

 

As for the question of rust, you want to buy some sort of rust converter, not a rust inhibitor. Naval jelly is one product, Eastwood has another. You want to sand off the large scale rust (and paint) and then treat the rest of the metal with the rust converter, cover it with a sell-etching primer, and then paint/clear it. Be sure to read all the instructions on proper surface preparation because some special prep maybe necessary between converter, primer, and paint.

 

Paint Over Rust (POR) products will encapulate the rusted metal and prevent air and moisture from getting to it. POR products are not generally recommended for things like exterior door panels or fenders that need to be painted to make the car look good. However they are great for chassis / suspension parts or inside doors, fender wells, etc. that will not be seen. That said, I know POR is coming out with a new line of products, so they may have some newer materials to work with too. I have a brake caliper kit from POR that I want to try when I get some spare time for my kids perennial baseball season. 

[havoc1482]

So, remove most rust physically (sanding) rust converter, then prime, then paint and/or clear coat?

 

Does POR make a converter? Are their any brands you recommend?

[Frosty]

I am not certain, I know that POR has a rust encapsulator. That is their big product. They may have a rust remover now. You might want to check their website. I would prefer to use a rust remover / converter before using an encapsulator.

 

So Eastwood Fast Etch and Naval Jelly are two that I've used. WD-40 has a rust remover liquid now (I've no experience with it though) just to name a few. I would imagine your local tractor supply/farm & fleet would also have something too.

[havoc1482]

Pulled the crap out of the trunk, including the old liner. Can see outside through the rear fender lips after removing some of the rusted bloated paint. I leave for Italy on Thursday so I won't be able to do much to her. I put air in the shocks and they actually came up and stayed. I haven't checked the height of the car in a few days, but it still looks like its holding lol. And getting the flat rear tires to seat on the bead to reinflate them was a task. Had to put her in neutral and roll the car back and fourth while having the compressor on the tire.

 

I also don't know what happened to the brakes\lines. Should I just put fluid in the reservoir and press the brake to see where it comes out? I got new lines 4 years ago after they failed while I was driving to school lol. I don't remember if I got the entire system of lines replaced or just where it broke. 

 

Took a look around the car and I can't find much rust other than the fenders and wheel wells. The front wheel wells are still in good shape, I pulled those out when I first got the car and cleaned\painted and bed-linered them.

 

What should I do about the rear wheel wells? Cut em up and remove the rust? It seems the most rust is behind the well in the front. I was able to stick my fingers up there and pull flakes and crud out.

 

Circled is the area I'm talking about:

 

 

 

Also, on my Grand Prix my Tire Pressure Monitor System isn't working and neither is my key fob. Could these two issue be related considering they are both deal with radio signals? I just got a new fob from my GM dealership last summer and it worked for a few months and then stopped.  
 

 

 

Sometimes I like to get into the Phoenix start her and listen to the engine. Othertimes I just turn it to accessory and listen to the Red Sox. Is this odd behavior? Question for our resident FP psychologist, Notallthere

[Frosty]

Havoc, I would suggesting get a hold of a lot of cardboard and placing it under the Phoenix, jacking it up, putting the car up on jack stands, fill up the brake reservoir with fluid and pump the brakes (with or without the engine on).The idea behind all the cardboard is to see where she is leaking. If you are truly loosing fluid, the fresh fluid on the cardboard will tell you where to look.

 

Since you thought you replaced many or all of the hard lines (I will assume those are not leaking for the moment), I will hazard to guess you have one or more leaking leaking wheel cylinders/brake caliper,or a leak at the proportioning valve or master cylinder/. I would also inspect the rubber lines between the front two disc brakes calipers and the front end and the rubber line on the rear diff. They could be swelling/cracking and leaking too. Even if they are just swelling and not leaking, they contribute to a mushy pedal and will eventually fail.

 

As for the rust problem, yes, you need to cut out the rusty sections down to good metal and weld in matching gauge patch panel(s), and do all the neccesary rust/metal prep and primer/inhibiter/paint/bedliner stuff. It's a messy, time consuming job. Are there Nova inner fender well panels you can buy and cut up for this job? I ask simply because I have not bothered to look online yet. Otherwise you can fab your own from the correct gauge sheet metal.

[havoc1482]

Havoc, I would suggesting get a hold of a lot of cardboard and placing it under the Phoenix, jacking it up, putting the car up on jack stands, fill up the brake reservoir with fluid and pump the brakes (with or without the engine on).The idea behind all the cardboard is to see where she is leaking. If you are truly loosing fluid, the fresh fluid on the cardboard will tell you where to look.

 

Since you thought you replaced many or all of the hard lines (I will assume those are not leaking for the moment), I will hazard to guess you have one or more leaking leaking wheel cylinders/brake caliper,or a leak at the proportioning valve or master cylinder/. I would also inspect the rubber lines between the front two disc brakes calipers and the front end and the rubber line on the rear diff. They could be swelling/cracking and leaking too. Even if they are just swelling and not leaking, they contribute to a mushy pedal and will eventually fail.

 

As for the rust problem, yes, you need to cut out the rusty sections down to good metal and weld in matching gauge patch panel(s), and do all the neccesary rust/metal prep and primer/inhibiter/paint/bedliner stuff. It's a messy, time consuming job. Are there Nova inner fender well panels you can buy and cut up for this job? I ask simply because I have not bothered to look online yet. Otherwise you can fab your own from the correct gauge sheet metal.

 

 

Okay thanks Frosty. Classic Industries might have something if its not too expensive. They have a catalog for the Nova, I actually think I have one lying around somewhere. 

 

And if it means anything, the "BRAKE" light is on meaning the car is detecting something wrong with the brakes.

[JUSTA6]

http://inlinetube.com/

Simply the BEST.

[Frosty]

I would agree with JUSTA on Inline Tube. They are here in Shelby Township Michigan - made in the good ol' US of A. I've been to their facility before. They made a custom length emergency brake cable for me when I converted Lucy from a 350TH to a 400TH tranny over 10 years ago.  I plan to eventually replace all the hard lines on Lucy with their stuff (tranny, fuel, and brake lines).

 

The brake sensor is usually at the master cylinder so it is sensing either a loss of line pressure or a low fluid level. Obviously its becoming a safety issue.

 

BTW - Inline tube does carry a lot of brake hardware too. Definitely check them out.

[havoc1482]

Hey cool, Inline has a section for Ventura\Phoenix. 

 

http://inlinetube.com/Preformed%20Lines/Web%20Line%20Listings/PE-CAT-01.htm

 

When I return from my trip I'll check the brakes. My first order of business is to get the car drive-able. That way If I find something I just can't do on my own or need help I can road trip her to my buddy the next town over who has done body work on a 67 Camaro RS and completely restored a 78 Chevy pickup. Hes helped me with the Phoenix a few times, same guy that welded those plates into the floorpans of the Phoenix to cover those holes remember? lol

[Frosty]

Hey cool, Inline has a section for Ventura\Phoenix. 

 

I shouldn't be surprised given the two brothers that own Inline are restoration fanatics. They own a pair of killer, perfectly correct straight black '69 GTO Judge and an Olds blue/white 442 W-30 convertible.

[JUSTA6]

Hey cool, Inline has a section for Ventura\Phoenix. 

 

http://inlinetube.com/Preformed%20Lines/Web%20Line%20Listings/PE-CAT-01.htm

 

When I return from my trip I'll check the brakes. My first order of business is to get the car drive-able. That way If I find something I just can't do on my own or need help I can road trip her to my buddy the next town over who has done body work on a 67 Camaro RS and completely restored a 78 Chevy pickup. Hes helped me with the Phoenix a few times, same guy that welded those plates into the floorpans of the Phoenix to cover those holes remember? lol

They have many resto Pontiac parts, simply amazing and great prices.  I bought new fuel and rear brake, pre bent lines over the counter for the GTO.  You wouldn't believe the # of lines hanging.  Dude walks over to this cluster and hands me the perfect replacement.  Thats when he gave me their Pontiac catalog covering everything from suspension to chrome and interior.  Who knew?   Now you do too.

[havoc1482]

So whats the deal with Dex-Cool? I'm just curious. The GP never needed it.

 

Anyways, the new Bonnie is weirding me out because it has 160xxx miles on it, but shows absolutely zero signs of any of the famous Northstar issues. I've been on PontiacBonnevilleClub.com and I've seen some posts with people running into the headgasket issue at like 90-100K miles. I guess I'm just pondering things about my new car.

 

 

 

 

 

I haven't looked at the accident report, but I know what was replaced just be looking at the car. Driverside front quarterpanel, you can see paint overspray inside the door jam which isn't present on the passenger side. Happened at like the 40K-ish mark so I'm not really concerned because its gone this many miles since then.

 

Also looks like the car went for service every 30-40K miles. Could it be the car was just babied that much? 

[99gagt3x00]

is that the carfax..doesn't look like anyone ever took it in for an oil change except for that one guy at 141k..unless they did there own changes..

[havoc1482]

Its the KBB VIN lookup. Safe to assume oil changes were done lol

[99gagt3x00]

Its the KBB VIN lookup. Safe to assume oil changes were done lol

oh i'm not saying they weren't they must have just took it to a basic shop that didn't report stuff like that or did it themselves..