Exhaust

[Wrongway]

Has anybody had any experience with Black Widow exhaust? I've just been running open headers and its time to get wheels, tires and exhaust so I can start taking her out on a daily basis. I'm wanting that classic muscle car sound and the Black Widow sound bites sound good but after running open headers I don't want something that you'll here from 6 blocks away. Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

[Frosty]

I have no experience with Black Widow. I run a Pypes exhaust. I still like to hear the radio too. So I run the quietest performance exhaust they made in 2005.

[Wrongway]

Do you happened to know the model Frosty, I'll take a look at them

[Last Indian]

I’m not familiar with them either, but keep in mind that a loud raucous exhaust doesn’t always equate to power! I don’t know your engine, but type of engine design, hp, torque, compression, etc all play a role in how much or how little back pressure you need for optimum performance. I have seem guys loose more than a second in the quarter just because of exhaust. As I said, bigger and louder don’t necessarily mean better!

I would hate to see you spend good money and be disappointed. All you’re running are headers right!

Edited March 11, 2019 by Last Indian

[JUSTA6]

Never heard of Black Widow.  Huge fan of Flowmaster mufflers and build my own custom exhaust.

[Wrongway]

Yes Indian I'm running just headers right now. Id like to keep the rumble but not the loud noise. I guess the easiest way to put it is I want the rumble and performance but I want to hear what your saying while were driving to. Yeah, I no I'm asking for a lot lol.

 

JUSTA, Black Widow is a newer company from what I understand. A friend at the parts house recommend them and all I no is what iv read online. You said your running flowmasters? Is that on your 421? Series 60 or?

[JUSTA6]

8 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Yes Indian I'm running just headers right now. Id like to keep the rumble but not the loud noise. I guess the easiest way to put it is I want the rumble and performance but I want to hear what your saying while were driving to. Yeah, I no I'm asking for a lot lol.

 

JUSTA, Black Widow is a newer company from what I understand. A friend at the parts house recommend them and all I no is what iv read online. You said your running flowmasters? Is that on your 421? Series 60 or?

Like the 50's series on the 421.  Not to loud...JUSTA right.   60's on the  231.

[Frosty]

16 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Do you happened to know the model Frosty, I'll take a look at them

It would be their 2.5"mandrel bent system, with a X-pipe cross over, and either the Street Pro or Violator mufflers. Of course, I think they had different names for the mufflers back then.

[Wrongway]

OK guys, thank you I really appreciate all the input. 

[Last Indian]

7 hours ago, Wrongway said:

OK guys, thank you I really appreciate all the input. 

In general I usually don’t comment much on exhaust stuff. Everybody usually has their own thoughts on what they think works, what they like too hear, etc. Still something you might want too consider is, what you want? Power, performance, sound, what? 

Attached is a link to an in depth article about exhaust, JustA headers, not really even getting into downstream. I’ve built systems for 45 years and two things I learned early on was louder wasn’t better, neither was quite, and bigger was better! 

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm

Most of the systems that you’re going to look at are 400 series stainless. It’s better than steel, but as it ages it starts to perform like steel. It slows down the laminar exhaust flow because of the resistance at the wall. You will see in this article how they talk about exhaust waves & pulses and how, depending on tube diameter, material selection and pipe transitions, a negative invert flow can be created that is counterproductive. A simple example, a V8 running headers into 3” collectors than into 2” duel pipes has a area of 6.28 sq. In. But the same engine could run the same headers into 3” collectors an than into one single 3” pipe. This delivers over 7” sq. In. Creates less shock waves that send inverted waves back at the valves, gives a deep rich tone. Also by slowing down the flow due to a larger pipe size you hear more of the throaty sound. Always see if you can get at least 304 stainless.

So as my buddy JustA would say, I’m JustA saying!

Edited March 12, 2019 by Last Indian

[Wrongway]

Wow, my head really hurts now Indian, thanks man. I think you broke something in my thinker lol. Seriously bro that was a very in depth article  and I thank you for sending it to me. I did also talk to flowmaster today. So since you guys have built and have way more experience with exhaust then I do what do you think about Flowmaster super 44s and 3" pipes running all the way back from the 3" header collector's? That was kinda where Flowmaster thought I should be with the 428.

[Last Indian]

14 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Wow, my head really hurts now Indian, thanks man. I think you broke something in my thinker lol. Seriously bro that was a very in depth article  and I thank you for sending it to me. I did also talk to flowmaster today. So since you guys have built and have way more experience with exhaust then I do what do you think about Flowmaster super 44s and 3" pipes running all the way back from the 3" header collector's? That was kinda where Flowmaster thought I should be with the 428.

What material are the headers made from, 409, 304, are they coated, are you keeping those as part of the system?

Can you tig or mig weld or know someone who does? The super 44s would be a good choice as a muffler, it’s 409 though, but on a 304 pipe it will last a long time. Plus when they need replaced they’ll come right off the 304.

Summit Racing sells, as do others, 304 pieces for making your own system. That would be my input. Buy 304 pipe, bends and flanges, Tig weld them together using 304 rod. Use the super 44s, but don’t clamp the 44s weld them to the 304 pipe.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Last Indian

[Wrongway]

Not sure on the headers I'll have to check with Hooker. All their website says is mild steel. Yeah id like to keep the headers since they've only got maybe 50mi on them at most. I'll have to find a shop to weld up the pipes since I cant weld anymore but that shouldn't be a problem either. Do you think 3" pipe will be a good choice or should I reduce them to 2.5"?

[Last Indian]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:21 AM, Wrongway said:

Not sure on the headers I'll have to check with Hooker. All their website says is mild steel. Yeah id like to keep the headers since they've only got maybe 50mi on them at most. I'll have to find a shop to weld up the pipes since I cant weld anymore but that shouldn't be a problem either. Do you think 3" pipe will be a good choice or should I reduce them to 2.5"?

Wrongway, if it was mine I would use 304 SS 2 ½ all the way to the mufflers, all welded, no clamps, no balance cross pipe. The super 44s are a good muffler choice. After set in the right orientation I would weld them to the 304 pipe. When the time comes to replace the mufflers you just grind the weld till the muffler is released. The area of a single 3” pipe, working diameter 2.9”, is 7.18 sq in for 8 cylinders. The area of single 2 ½ pipe, working diameter 2.4” is 4.5” sq in for 4 cylinders. This mean that the laminar flow is much more stable with less inverted flow in the 2 ½ pipes.

Think of it this way, a flowing river with no curves, no rocks flows smooth, but add some large rocks and a lot of smaller ones and you have inverted flow, disturbance, rapids! Because the volume of fluid verses flow rate has been reduced. The other thing that happens is that the sound gets louder! If you increase the width of the river at the area of rocks, but the rock disturbance area stays the same the water disturbance decreases as does the inverted flow & noise. 

The noise at the rapids is higher pitched and a racket type. Now think of Niagara Falls! Very loud, but deep toned. No invert flow, until after the falls. I could continue, but I hope this helps?

Does that explain it a little better?

Edited March 15, 2019 by Last Indian

[Wrongway]

Yeah man, I got'cha. I seriously had no idea that this much thought went into exhaust. I knew there were different set ups but I just kinda thought a pipe was a pipe. Thanks for all the help and info bro. I'll update yall once I get it all installed.

[JUSTA6]

LMAO......You can tune an exhaust, but ya can't tune a fish!

[Frosty]

JUSTA - I think the more accurate expression is:   you can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish....but they both have scales!

[JUSTA6]

28 minutes ago, Frosty said:

JUSTA - I think the more accurate expression is:   you can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish....but they both have scales!

It is...BUT that adaptation seemed to work in the moment.

[Frosty]

42 minutes ago, Frosty said:

JUSTA - I think the more accurate expression is:   you can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish....but they both have scales!

 

12 minutes ago, JUSTA6 said:

It is...BUT that adaptation seemed to work in the moment.

I'll give you that JUSTA. 

[Wrongway]