The MS2000 platform is one of the most underrated GM platforms of all times! Now don’t misconstrue that statement! It’s not the best of all time or the most favorited, but hands down, as the years have rolled on more & more of the old guard have recognized that! 

Most folks, even those that own these cars don’t realize that the 1997-2003 Grand Prix, known as the W-body, were unique, but it wasn’t the W-body that most people relate it to! It was actually called the W2-body! That generation of GP’s alone were on the MS2000 platform & the specific configuration that ran from “97”-“03”.

The 6th generation (“88”-“96”) was on the GM10 platform, this was the first W-body platform. This GM10 platform was a disaster for GM. The GM10 platform was designed in Canada & cost $7 billon dollars!

The 7th generation (“97”-“03”) was the MS2000 platform, known as the W2-body. This platform debuted in “97” cost $2.2 billon & was designed in the Detroit area. There is much confusion about the MS2000 platform! Only the “97”-“03” Pontiac Grand Prix ran this specific configuration on the MS2000 platform. No other division ran it! Buick & Olds ran the MS2000 platform from “97”-“03” like Pontiac, but theirs was a different configuration & components were different! The Pontiac version was just enough different that it made all the difference in handling! The Grand Prix had a longer wheel base, a wider stance, a lower CG & a lower RC out of the factory. Which when looked at after the fact & translated into improvement designs; that became substantial! And while all the attention always centered around the supercharged GTP & the NA 3800 was ignored, that power plant was a lot like the old 283 Chevy motor! Remember the 283 actually became the 302 DZ motor! Folks like to say it was a 327 with a 283 crank, but it wasn’t. The 302 DZ motor actually produced 1.9 horsepower per cubic inch! More than any production engine by any manufacturer in history to that time per cubic inch & for many years after. While you are not going to get those kind of gains out of a NA 3800 you could easily get another 100 to 125 hp without a major rebuild & 200 + with a hard core total rebuild! At the end of the day power is easy compared to trying to make a platform something it’s not! This is why the MS2000 made such a difference, but that’s been ignored.

 

Chevy on the other hand continued with the GM10 platform until “99” in the Monte Carlo & Lumina.

 

This is the reason I named my Grand Prix, The Last Indian! The “97”-“03” Pontiac Grand Prix was designed in the Detroit area, built in Kansas City & a good share of the parts were American made! Only the Grand Prix & the Olds Intrigue were built in Kansas City, but the Buick Century & Regal were built in China or Canada. 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Last Indian

I remember the GM10 platform very well. The 1988 GM10 cars replaced all the A/G RWD cars with FWD replacements. Gone were the Buick Regal/Grand National, Chevy Monte Carlo / El Camino, Pontiac Grand Prix, Olds Cutlass/442. In came the "new" Buick Regal, Olds Cutlass Supreme, Pontiac Grand Prix, and Chevy Lumina (the car not the minivan). Initially powered by a Chevrolet 2.0L V6 and a whooping 125 HP, these cars were nothing like their predecessors in looks, horsepower or styling. Later adding the 3.8L Buick V6 would add power back to these cars that the 2.8 and 3.1s lacked. But these cars were never quite the same as the RWD days. This was back in the day when GM thought that every car they sold needed to be FWD.

48 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I remember the GM10 platform very well. The 1988 GM10 cars replaced all the A/G RWD cars with FWD replacements. Gone were the Buick Regal/Grand National, Chevy Monte Carlo / El Camino, Pontiac Grand Prix, Olds Cutlass/442. In came the "new" Buick Regal, Olds Cutlass Supreme, Pontiac Grand Prix, and Chevy Lumina (the car not the minivan). Initially powered by a Chevrolet 2.0L V6 and a whooping 125 HP, these cars were nothing like their predecessors in looks, horsepower or styling. Later adding the 3.8L Buick V6 would add power back to these cars that the 2.8 and 3.1s lacked. But these cars were never quite the same as the RWD days. This was back in the day when GM thought that every car they sold needed to be FWD.

True enough buddy! Hated that time! I wasn’t in need of a car until 2000. At that time I still had both Camaros, but my parents as well as my in-laws were at that age were I needed a 4 door sedan! Fortunately this evolution in that platform helped. As they say the rest is history.

Thought you got lost! Haven’t heard form you for a bit!

The boss and I were on holiday for a week on Hilton Head Island in South Carolina last week. Along the way we managed to get serious sinus infections so that knocked us down a bit. So we hung out at the beach in our beach chairs, got some sunshine and warmth, read books, and got extra sleep and binged on DayQuil and fresh seafood.

I was working at GM at the time the GM10 program launched. At the time it was the most expensive platform launch in corporate history since it was overhauling all the best selling midsize cars in North America. I was supporting the Forward Planning group for AC in the mid-80s when GM10 was still being developed. We had to report out the status of key components like instrument clusters, catalytic converters, and air cleaner assemblies. Once a month the components divisional reps met with our platform and car group  counter parts to report our status on all car lines and platforms. These were interesting meetings. If you were yellow or red (e.g. behind schedule), you usually got some level of tongue lashing depending on what was going on and what sort of you or your division had with the car groups.

One meeting we went to, we reported our status, and got our tongue lashing but we were known for being honest. Instrument clusters were often behind schedule but everything else is ususally on schedule. But what happened next with the New Departure Hyatt guy was amazing. They had the motor mounts and some other steel parts for the GM10 program. Until now, they had reported green status on all their parts. This time they reported all red. They had stopped all work. They were out of money. The GM10 program manager gave this guy an incredulous look (the "you got to be shitting me!" look). He tore a new one into the NDH guy. He accused them of lying since the very beginning. The lack of money was no excuse to stop work since we were GM and we can always get you money. The platform manager looked at his assistant sitting next to him and said, "you know those motor mounts NDH has? Outsource 'em!"

You should have seen the number of open mouths sitting around the conference  room (including mine and mine boss's). Holy shit! Just like that! Done. You should have seen that NDH guy at lunch trying to talk to the GM10 guy and the GM10 guy was not having any of it. Imagine going back to your division and giving them this news- imagine the pucker factor having to give that news to your boss and superiors that you just lost the motor mounts just like that!!!! To this day, I honestly don't know if NDH ever got those motor mounts back. 

5 hours ago, Frosty said:

The boss and I were on holiday for a week on Hilton Head Island in South Carolina last week. Along the way we managed to get serious sinus infections so that knocked us down a bit. So we hung out at the beach in our beach chairs, got some sunshine and warmth, read books, and got extra sleep and binged on DayQuil and fresh seafood.

I was working at GM at the time the GM10 program launched. At the time it was the most expensive platform launch in corporate history since it was overhauling all the best selling midsize cars in North America. I was supporting the Forward Planning group for AC in the mid-80s when GM10 was still being developed. We had to report out the status of key components like instrument clusters, catalytic converters, and air cleaner assemblies. Once a month the components divisional reps met with our platform and car group  counter parts to report our status on all car lines and platforms. These were interesting meetings. If you were yellow or red (e.g. behind schedule), you usually got some level of tongue lashing depending on what was going on and what sort of you or your division had with the car groups.

One meeting we went to, we reported our status, and got our tongue lashing but we were known for being honest. Instrument clusters were often behind schedule but everything else is ususally on schedule. But what happened next with the New Departure Hyatt guy was amazing. They had the motor mounts and some other steel parts for the GM10 program. Until now, they had reported green status on all their parts. This time they reported all red. They had stopped all work. They were out of money. The GM10 program manager gave this guy an incredulous look (the "you got to be shitting me!" look). He tore a new one into the NDH guy. He accused them of lying since the very beginning. The lack of money was no excuse to stop work since we were GM and we can always get you money. The platform manager looked at his assistant sitting next to him and said, "you know those motor mounts NDH has? Outsource 'em!"

You should have seen the number of open mouths sitting around the conference  room (including mine and mine boss's). Holy shit! Just like that! Done. You should have seen that NDH guy at lunch trying to talk to the GM10 guy and the GM10 guy was not having any of it. Imagine going back to your division and giving them this news- imagine the pucker factor having to give that news to your boss and superiors that you just lost the motor mounts just like that!!!! To this day, I honestly don't know if NDH ever got those motor mounts back. 

An that sucks when you get sick on vacation. 
I’ve been in those kind of meetings, not fun if your the target! Fortunately I haven’t been. 

The MS2000 platform was designed by an outside company in the Detroit area. I use to know the nam of the company that did the design, but I can’t find it anymore, do you remember who it was?

Hmmmm....I don't recall the supplier. I know the overall program was managed by the newly minted Chevrolet-Pontiac-GM of Canada group (a.k.a. CPC) small car group. It was a $7B investment at the time and was not particularly successful at capturing the public's interest in FWD cars. These were smaller, shorters less powerful versions of what they had the year before. A total lose-lose in the public's eye.

Edited October 25, 20223 yr by Frosty

9 hours ago, Frosty said:

Hmmmm....I don't recall the supplier. I know the overall program was managed by the newly minted Chevrolet-Pontiac-GM of Canada group (a.k.a. CPC) small car group. It was a $7B investment at the time and was not particularly successful at capturing the public's interest in FWD cars. These were smaller, shorters less powerful versions of what they had the year before. A total lose-lose in the public's eye.

Yeah, that was the GM10 platform, but the MS2000 was a completely different platform. It ran from “97”-“03” for Pontiac, Olds & Buick. And till “99” for Chevy. It replaced the GM10 in those models & cost 2.2 billion. It was dubbed the W2-body. In 2004 that platform was updated, but the didn’t turn out to be a good decision as the actual largest change was to change the front subframe from steel to aluminum! Which had a lot of problems with cracking at the welds.

So within the W-body platform there were 2 different platforms & 3 different designs. Only the MS2000 platform was design in the Detroit area & never had anything to do with CPC & was never built in Canada either.

I, pretty much like anybody raised in the “50” & “60”, was born & bred on rear wheel drive & big horsepower! So as I’ve stated before, when I sold my “69” Z/28 I thought I was done! 35 years was a long time, I wasn’t getting any younger, my work was now consuming most nearly all of my time. It takes a lot of effort to get multiple multi million dollar projects off the ground, so the effort to go find something else that would suffice for what I wanted in place of the Z would take more effort than I felt I had. Not to mention the effort to rebuild it, MY WAY! Which is usually a pretty anal exercise. Thus the evolution of the Last Indian!

Now most hard core muscle car guys are going to be hard to reach & I’m not trying to change anyones mind! I too love rear wheel drive & big power, but this post is about the MS2000 platform & is worth noting even for those individuals! Yet I know there are some folks on here who own this platform as well. So I repeat, this is not the GM10 platform or even an upgrade of the GM10. It is a completely new & different design. 

 

Now that this platform has past the 25 year mark there is a lot of data as to how it has performed & there seems to also be a renewed interest in the fact that it was a great design on creation & still has great potential. Much of this is based on the original 300 GPX concept car! Yet what is amazing to me & nobody, I mean nobody seems to recognizes, is the G8 concept was originally based on this same platform! Now in finality for production it wasn’t because it move to the Holden Zeta platform & the entire concept, especially in physical appearance changed, but the original concept was designed around the MS2000 platform & the Seventh generation (“97”-“03”) Grand Prix! What’s even more amazing is for all of the emphasis on Pontiac’s wide track design in the day the Grand Prix actually had the narrowest track of all the MS2000 (Wii-body) cars. Still it had the lowest CG & RC! And the potential, through modifications to have the widest& thus lowering the CG & RC even further! While still keeping the tires tucked inside the fenders!

Notice that the 300 GPX is in concept a sedan, while the G8 is a coup n concept.

This was the 300 GPX concept on the MS2000 platform.

This was the G8 concept car on the MS2000 Platform in Grand Prix dress.

Edited November 4, 20223 yr by Last Indian

Because of my involvement with GM during the development of the 300 GPX I knew about its existence & it’s one of the things that encourage me to buy my 2000 when I needed to replace my daily driver. Then when I sold the “69” & time moved on I knew the benchmark I had to work towards. Then the more I delved into this platform the more I could see how much I could improve upon even what Pontiac had done in the original 300 GPX concept car, but time was on my side, as it never is in development projects & all the up front work those original designers did was a big head start for me. Also there were some intriguing developments! In 2000, before I had even started building the Indian, Pontiac released a new prototype concept car at the auto show & it made me realize there was even more I could do than I had previously thought! That came from the first initial prototype G8! Which was sitting on the MS2000 platform in the sixth generation Grand Prix dress! This prototype was a V8 all wheel drive with 350hp. Yet it was all stuffed in & under an MS2000 platform & for all intent & purpose it looked just like a Grand Prix! 

So if you look at the specs of this car or the 300 GPX & you look at the Indian you will see that there is very little difference between either of those two cars & the Indian. Except that the Indian has a better CG, a better RC. A better weight distribution than the 300 GPX & I can’t say for the G8 prototype as I could never find it. Even the rear spoiler on the Indian is similar to that of the G8, but I like the Indian one better as the outer tips of the spoiler don’t turn down like the G8s do.

Hood a little like mine

tranny cooler, similar to mine.

spoiler similar to mine

looks like a GP interior to me.

Edited November 2, 20223 yr by Last Indian

Your entire fascia blows factory Pontiac out of the water.  Have to admit, I'm not sure which hood has the best scoop placement, although both are sweet and your inserts and grill blast yours over the top.

 

9 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Your entire fascia blows factory Pontiac out of the water.  Have to admit, I'm not sure which hood has the best scoop placement, although both are sweet and your inserts and grill blast yours over the top.

21 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Your entire fascia blows factory Pontiac out of the water.  Have to admit, I'm not sure which hood has the best scoop placement, although both are sweet and your inserts and grill blast yours over the top.

 

Thanks Steve! The hoods are close, but the one on mine is bolder from the perspective that it has more of a rise up as it transitions to the back of the hood. Kind of like the cowl induction hood of the Camaro & Chevelle. I also like the original fogg lights of the “97”-“03” Grand Prix. The ones that the G8 Garnd Prix concept car uses are from the 8th gen Grand Prix “04”-“08”. The one thing I wish I did have is the wider fender flairs that they used on both the 300 GPX & the G8 concept.

Edited November 4, 20223 yr by Last Indian

Here you can see the major difference in the hoods that I spoke of.