Last Indian

10 hours ago, Stewy said:

Holy wow the past few days have been insanely busy (hence my going dark)! I've spent the last several days being severely sleep deprived so yesterday was devoted to literally sleeping most of the day away. Two vehicles detailed and ready for winter and two more yet to go 🥴. Labor of love coupled with living with snow (I updated my fall detail regimen to start playing with the new "hybrid ceramics" that are hitting the shelves so we'll see how that goes - but I digress) .

@Last Indian

Hey, Gary. Thank you for your input. It shows that you  know quite a bit about (among other things, I'm sure!) the suspension realm! I've had similar thoughts to yours - changing handling based on a multitude of inputs - shocks (adjustables or non-adjustables), coils, to lower / not to lower, control arm bushings, spacers, sway bars (stock, GMPP, otherwise), sway bar bushings (poly, stock, other), sway bar connecting rods, trailing rods, engine (lower & upper) mounts, and so on.

Where things stand now, I have a specific target (setup-wise / modification-wise) in mind of where I would like to go with my Grand Prix. Aside from two (technically three) more things I have left, the car has "arrived". I fully appreciate and respect your thoughts, for sure!, that there is yet quite a bit that can be done to firm up ride and handling response, that's not really where I want to invest my focus. Based on my previous Grand Prix where I did, comparatively, more aggressive ride / handling modifications, I am staying more conservative with my 2005 Grand Prix versus my 1999 Grand Prix.

I came up, a while back, with a Venn Diagram of "automotive modding" and what I could identify as the minimum number of categories which could explain why a given person modifies their vehicle. With my '99 Grand Prix I was weighted more heavily to the "performance" and "perception" categories (hence more modding relating to, among other things, suspension tuning) while with my '05 Grand Prix I am more heavily weighted to the "performance" and "preservation" categories (hence taking more of a conservative approach to the "what" I do and "why" I do it).

Anyway, these are just my thoughts and views of where I would like to see (have seen) my Grand Prix arrive at. One thing I enjoy considering (especially when at car shows / events) is seeing each person's creativity and their, essentially, personal expression of what they bring out in their vehicle. Shoot, I even can appreciate what would otherwise be a horrendous vehicle (e.g . a 1980's Monte with a lift riding on 22's with a sparkly neon orange paint job) because I know it reflects that individuals creativity .

 

Nathan, I agree 100%! All should enjoy their own choices in how they choose their car to be! 

As I said, when I wrote it was informational, it wasn’t directive or assertive. The thought behind giving that information was because it seems some of your perceptions of certain suspension mechanics seem a little conflicting, and I apologize if my perception is off. 

As a example, you keep mentioning firming up the ride and handling response, which to me makes me think you relate the two as one in the same or interrelated! If you do, and I am not saying you are, they are not! Springs, shock/struts and certain bushings affect the ride, as do certain structural materials like the frame, a “99” had a steel frame I believe the “05” has an aluminum one. This all affects the ride, I.E. hard, soft or in between. The center of gravity, the roll center, sway bars, end links and certain bushings affect handling, Yaw and the like! You can have a relatively standard OEM ride and still have a car that handles/corners at the level of a sports car! If your choice is a OEM car, I applaud you! That is just as difficult to maintain as a modified car, sometimes harder! I just what to make sure we are speaking the same terminology.

5 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Was thinkin it was perfect before, but it really does need the end cap for the splitter.   Dangit...droolin all over the keypad JUSTA staring at your pic's.

Yup! It does! Also at this point, the NACA duct that comes from the Kaminari add on, which overlays the OEM cover I plan to enhance the ducts and make them functional. That whole area on the lower side of the cover/Kaminari add on & the splitter become a low pressure area. Which in turn should become ideal for even a better Ram Air! 

How was Golling?

17 hours ago, Frosty said:

So what is the plan for this piece?

Well it’s one of those things you can’t put your finger on, at least not yet! Not till I get into it. I have a basic plan, but it will develop into a concept as I get into it a little further. 

The gist is, while, again I can’t put my finger on all of it there’s just something lacking in the current front cover/Kaminari add on piece & the splitter. The splitter I know! It just looks incomplete, lacking, just kind of hanging in space. That I’ve already started to address, see pics! One of the things I did recently, while not necessarily obvious, without comparing photos. Is I cut down the center stanchion as well as the end stanchions, you can’t see those very easily. This helps to tuck the splitter up tighter to the cover bottom. You can kind of tell when you look at the pictures with the add on piece vs the picture the says current. The front cover/Kaminari piece I have yet to completely conceptualize yet, but it will be different than the other, especially the side Naca ducts.

Current splitter look is below.

46 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I searched my local Autozone and O'Reillys. Nothing was in stock, everything was special order - 2 days minimuim. NPD had everything in stock at the Michigan store. Yeah, it was crap load of driving too, but hey, the cannolis from Cantors were worth it.

I am still planning on making Golling. I got a call from the shop today. It appears it is back together. I hope to get Lucy back tonight.

I never heard of Dawn being used for driveways. I have heard of it to use on pets that get skunked. I will try it. I've got lots of Dawn lying around. I will give it a try.

Last Indian - where do you pick up Textile Spirits? I've not heard of this product before.

Well I get it from, well you know, shhhhh, but for you not sure. One of your GM shops  might have it. Otherwise it would have to be a chemical supplier or possibly a dry cleaner. It actually is a fairly safe solvent. Obviously you should always wear the proper PPE, but TS doesn’t deposit in the liver like most other high end aromatics.

19 hours ago, Stewy said:

@Last Indian

Hey Gary. Right now I still have, in both front and rear, the OEM sway bar links. I've been itching to swap them out for ones that are serviceable (i.e. have the zerk fittings on them) but I haven't been able to justify the cost at this point (albeit RockAuto has the zerk fitting equipped ones for a reasonable price but since the OEM ones are still good... 😕).

The same goes for the sway bar bushings. One of the things (along with a few others) on the to-do list is to replace them with polyurethane bushings. I know there are dividing thoughts on the poly bushings but in my experience I'm a poly fan. I'm currently running polys in the upper engine to core support dog bones and have been pleased with the feedback in the steering wheel. Another item on the to-do list is to replace the trans and block mounts over to polys. My research shows in that case, however, the feedback in the wheel may be too much for my taste so we'll see.

Oddly enough (at least I think I'm odd ), regarding the MacPhersons, I have factory's at all four corners. When the time comes, to be completely honest, I'm planning on putting OEM shocks (possibly new coils, too) back in. In my '99 Grand Prix I was running KYB GR-2's and while I didn't have any complaints per-say, I feel the OEM setup in my '05 provides a better ride and handing response (but, again, that's just me and I'm "different" ).

 

@JUSTA6

Hey Steve. Thanks for the invite - it's appreciated! Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend 😞. That's the day the family is getting together to celebrate my daughter's birthday 🎂. Maybe next year... ?

Just as a informational source, sway bars, as you know make a huge difference in handling, but the real weak link in the 6th & 7th generation GP’s were the links! Without the right configuration for the front end links, there is only about a 40% impact on handling! The front links are to tall & too small in bolt diameter! The rear links are just plain abominable! They have less then a 20% impact on handling! Take a look at the bar diameter and than look at the end link rod diameter! 

Yes, the poly bushings will make a vast improvement in the performance of both bars, but only when you change the end links! With the stock links the improvement is negligible. The good news is those improvements really have very little impact on ride quality! AKA soft vs stiff.

Likewise the upper motor mounts in poly is good! They help control engine rotation and using poly makes that even more effective, which in turn helps deliver more of the available torque to the wheels via the transaxle. The lower engine mount and transmission mount on the other hand really don’t. They are for dampening, thus they simple transmit more resonance frequency to the frame structure, causing more of a uncomfortable underlying vibration. Yes you will feel it in the wheel, but its not feedback, its just structural resonation, not power or handling feedback.

You need to be happy with the ride you create, but the KYB AGX is a better, far different strut than the Gr2. If you set the ride control to the softest setting they ride quite well, but if I remember right have a larger shaft than the Gr2 and definitely larger than the OEM strut and the AGX are just a different mechanical design than the Gr2. That shaft is the only upper connection of the entire front suspension. The smaller that shaft the less stable the entire wheel assemble is and the more flex there is in that assembly. So even strut tower braces can’t help that! 
Likewise the lower control arm/Aarm is a weak link at the bottom because of the ineffective, illogical vertical front bushing which is one step away from worthless, IMO. This coupled with a smaller than necessary strut shaft account for most of the reason for torque steer in these cars.

12 hours ago, Frosty said:

Well I hit the wall with Lucy and I am running out of time. Sunday I spent three hours trying to put the power steering back together. I had to finese the mounting brackets to get them close and managed to scrap up the freshly painted brackets and the pump in the process. Grrr..... The real rub came with trying to connect the new hoses. They won't go in. I suspect the new(er) Camaro steering gear has a different thread than the stock Pontiac/GTO threads from 72.

So I decided to call a repair shop and let them get everything together even if it means new parts again. I had to call a tow truck since the battery is disconnected, and the belts are off. It was a blow to my ego but I know that I am running out of time and I have a charity car show on Saturday. So I am hoping to have Lucy back before Saturday. 

Here ia Lucy in the street, making a mess on the driveway and street and getting hooked up to the tow truck. The fluid is coming out of the steering box. I didn't think there was that damn much fluid in it, but again I'm wrong. The wife is not happy about the mess all over the driveway either. Anyone got a recommendation for a driveway stain cleaner that really works?

Sorry to hear about the mess buddy! I don’t know what year the Camaro gear box is, but if it’s from 2000 on up it is most likely metric. If that is true, and I know it’s too late, but for future reference, they make adaptors that would have allowed you to use the hose you had.

For the fluid cleanup, if you can get your hands on Textile Spirits, that and a stiff brush will remove the oil. Textile Spirits liquifies oil and then evaporates very quickly taking the oil molecules with it. It will also clean the concrete and make it even whiter, but once the dirt re-enters the concrete, over time, it will look normal again. I would then follow up with JustA’s Dawn soap, the blue one. If you can’t get Textile Spirits you can use lacquer thinner, but be careful if you use that. Textile Spirits doesn’t burn very easily, but obviously thinner does! Thinner also doesn’t liquify oil and evaporate as well as Textile Spirits!

Nice adds! Look good! Did you do anything with the sway bar links or sway bar bushings? Any work to the front lower Aarm? Struts?

Just wondered? 

Well here we go again! This OCD thing is starting to get a little much I know! That said i’m JustA not happy withe the front cover/splitter mod. It’s lacking that punch I was looking for. So guess what I’ll be doing this winter?

Right a new front cover, a new front Kaminari lower cover add-on plus additional mods to both pieces and a additional add/change to the front splitter. 

The front splitter will be different on the finishing ends. Instead of ending 3/4 of the way to the wheel well opening it will finish at the wheel well with an outer wing.

12 hours ago, Stewy said:

Hi everyone 👋. Just decided to take the leap and join F.P. (heard about everyone through social media and postings relating to the Woodward cruise). I've been driving a Pontiac in one form or another since 1998 and have in the past been an active member in other Pontiac message forums (Grand Prix, specifically) which have each gone the way of the dinosaur (such is life, I suppose).

I started in the Pontiac realm with a hand-me-down Bonneville that had the 3800 engine. The great experience I had with that engine carried me into my first Grand Prix (I went with the Grand Prix specifically because it had the 3800 - Series II at that point). When, early one winter morning, icy roads claimed the life of my first Grand Prix, it only made sense to go with another one (now with the Series III). After driving this Grand Prix for about a year as a daily I decided to do one of the single most expensive mods I've done to the car - buy another vehicle as my daily ('96 Blazer 4WD) and promote the Grand Prix to show-car status. Around this time I met the woman who would become my wife and, coming from the Grand Prix world herself (with a '95), she felt it was time to upgrade (mainly due to reliability issues with the '95 and how it liked to eat head gaskets), she picked up an '05 after picking my brain about my experience with the 3800 engines and Grand Prixs.

At that point, as they, say, the rest is history 😃.

I enjoy taking my show Grand Prix to various car shows (I'm a HUGE fan of Flint's "Back to the Bricks" - even more than Woodward, I admit 😯). However, life seems to get in the way much of the time and I am not able to be involved in shows / cruises nearly as much as I would like 😢.

 

Anyway, past / current Pontiacs are:

1. 1989 Bonneville LE (08/1998-10/2001) - "The Bonnie" - 3800 V6 "pre-Series I"
2. 1999 Grand Prix GT (10/2001-12/2006) - "Phoenix" - 3800 V6 "Series II"
3. 2005 Grand Prix GT2 (01/2007 - present) - "Renovatio" (show car) - 3800 V6 "Series III"
4. 2005 Grand Prix GT2 (09/2007 - present) - "Bleen" (wife's daily) - 3800 V6 "Series III"

 

x

 

Thanks for letting me introduce myself and am looking forward to getting back into the Pontiac message forum world.

 

-Nathan

Welcome Nathan! Nice assemblage of GPs. The 3800 had/has a lot more potential than most understood. As did many of GMs FWDs in general. If you’re looking for info or just general ideas to peruse, you will enjoy the site.

12 hours ago, Frosty said:

I know from personal experience that notallthere is not "gentle" on his truck either. One legged burn outs are common. So if he says this stuff works, take it to the bank.

Nothing wrong with Notallthere’s fix. Still in all my years of racing and street use the cheapest fix, that also makes removal a breeze is this. Get 316 SS hex head bolts the correct length needed for your application and 316 SS lock washers. Torque them properly and they’ll never move. Because of the chrome/nickel percentage content, they expand and contract properly without loosing memory. Plus when you need to remove them they come right out since they don’t gaul in cast steel, cast iron or aluminum. 

1 hour ago, fatcat said:

Sept 15 scheduled takeoff   trying for  rock and roll hall of fame in Cleveland first stop  Long drive  then I can settle down for a few hours a day after that

You’ll love the Rock Hall, you might consider visiting the Crawford Auto/Aviation Museum as well!

25 minutes ago, Pontiacs For Life said:

Nope charcoal. I wanted charcoal/silver interior. 

Looks great! The “97”-“03” seats were/are nice seats.

48 minutes ago, Pontiacs For Life said:

It has a 9” four letter word rear axle, 3:90 ratio, 4 wheel disc brakes, KRE heads, SD Perf Old Faithful roller cam, full manual T-350, Northwind intake, 830 Pro-system carb,  2000 Gran Prix seats, 6-point roll-bar and 28x12 MT drag radials. Best ET to date 11.01@121. BTW it’s never trailered including to the track. 

I didn’t notice the N.E. Ohio. Obviously from the area around Cleveland! I know the M.D. Garage by Boston Mills. 2000 GP seat are a good choice 😁! Neutral/tan I hope! 

36 minutes ago, Pontiacs For Life said:

New to the site but not to Pontiacs. Currently have a '63 Lemans that I built with 428 and KRE heads. Project '56 Chieftain waiting in the wings.

Welcome fellow Buckeye!

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

It's a bit of an ostrich but you could say I'm "raven" about it! 

You better  ! On the other hand I’m just 

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Ya' had to go there huh Last Indian ?!? What a fowl joke. A poultry attempt at humor. What a terrible yoke! We are not emused. You hardly have to duck to miss that one! Toucan play that game you know. I have no egrets telling you this. I know this hawkward and unpheasant but it's not ill-eagle.

Hey! You know your stuff is nothing to “Crow” about either! 

2 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Guess it’s good I didn’t say, Something seems a fowl! 😜

Welcome! Clearly your love is for the birds! 😁

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Thanks for the  support.

I've had occasional squealing with this gear box and pump combination over the years and it's gotten worse since I installed the new bigger tires on it this summer. So it just makes sense to me to replace the pump. If I have more squealing issues, then I know it can only be the gear box since everything else will have been replaced.

As you know the squealing is from the belt. You might consider changing, in the down season, the pulleys to wider deeper groove pulleys as they use a wider belt. Because of this they carry more load, which is what’s needed due to the resistance being incurred. Also consider using a good synthetic fluid for the power steering.

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

I am in total agreement with you Last Indian.

I am not having any lucking finding an obvious crack or leak anywhere. I pulled both hoses and the pump off Lucy last night. I covered the steering box holes with tape for now to avoid any contamination. I think I am going to make a parts run bright and early tomorrow morning to NPD and get a new pump and hoses and be done with it. I will also re-do the mounting brackets as they sadly need some love and new paint. I will also have to scrounge up a pulley puller.

That’s what I would do! The housing may be cracked at one of the bracket bolts or the O’ring seal at the pump to housing may have failed. That said it’s doubtful that it’s the gear box and if it was it would be the pinion lip seal. Which should have shown up as a regular drip leak.

53 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Pretty much....I am suspecting I will be making a parts run to NPD Saturday morning plus I have the Michigan vs. Middle Tennessee State football game in Ann Arbor at 7:30 pm.

Pffttt...Middle Tennessee State - a night game? Seriously? Oh the things we have to do for network prime time.....on the Big Ten Network!

Ok, so if I step through this as best I can. The pump wasn’t running in general? Sitting it lost most of the fluid? And this was after you changed the belt? I would inspect/ look at the power steering pump/housing & the hose connections at the housing. Check the housing for a crack, on the bottom or around the hose connection fittings & around the face area were the pump inserts into the housing. The steering box and hose connections at the box would only empty the pump when it was running as a rule.

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Okay so last night I decide to work on Lucy after work. I find a large puddle of power steering fluid under her. So clearly after replacing the V-belt, I did something. Now that the reservoir is empty (all the fluid is on the driveway and I spend most of the remaining daylight cleaning it up as best I could), I take the brackets off the engine to look at the power steering pump. I don't see any obvious holes, leaks, or gashes.

I see that the low pressure return line is nothing more than 3/8" diameter thick hose with two hose clamps, one at the pump and the other on a fitting at the steering box. The high pressure line is a special hose and I see nothing obviously wrong with it. The rubber hose is probably old and I should probably replace it period (which I will most likely do anyway even it isn't to blame).

Right now I feel I have to clean everything with brake / carb cleaner, put everything back together,  fill it up with fluid,  put a bucket under Lucy, and run it to see where its leaking. Anyone got any better suggestions for diagnosing or detecting said leak?

Wasn’t there an obvious drip point relative to the puddle?