Last Indian

On 10/25/2019 at 11:01 AM, Frosty said:

You mean from the point of reason, the point of being rationale, the person who calmly asks "what the f*ck happened?" and then ultimate says, "don't do it again" (oh like I was consciously trying that hard to do it the first time but succeeded anyway!). 

Mine never swears, but she never is calm about it either, but she certainly always says “don’t do that again” like I will listen !

18 hours ago, notallthere said:

You should see the look I got when I confessed to putting the tools away before going the emergency room.

Not to take anything away from Notallthere! But, the grinder story I completely get, and I’ve never heard it! 

In 1988 when I built the full frame for my wife’s Z/28, I’ve posted pictures before, I had the subframe out in my backyard grinding it with a 9” 16 grit disc to get the whole thing down to bare steel to start welding in the back part of the frame I had built. Well while grinding around the shock/Aarm area I caught the edge of the upper  weldment that the upper Aarm bolts to. This tore a PAC-man type chunk out of the disc and sense I had just replaced the disc and was 140 or so feet from the shop I thought what the heck, I’ll keep going! 5 seconds later I’m standing holding a grinder in one hand spinning at 3500 rpm out of balance, while looking at 4” long by 1” deep, laid wide open gash in my forearm. They told me I missed my tendons and the muscle by 1 millimeter. That said, no, I did not cleanup before I went to the ER. 

To top it off this is one of the safer mishaps I’ve had !

4 hours ago, Frosty said:

Especially since he's built it to do some autocross and he's been to stunt driving school.

His first meaningful bumper sticker.

https://www.amazon.com/FOLLOW-STUPID-Sticker-Decal-Bumper/dp/B071RM243B

Especially with grinders.

 

I can’t say much! Oh if you only knew   

18 hours ago, notallthere said:

For now there is a 98 Vortec 350.  What you do not see is the LS 6.0 under the one work bench.

Beautiful job! It’s gonna be killer! An LS is good, but say a ZL aluminum block would get some attention! Just make sure you buy stock in tires & gas!!

Beautiful car! Love the black!

1 hour ago, JUSTA6 said:

Always wondered (after drooling over what you CAN see on your car) How much was involved with watcha can't see.  So I'm not surprised.  Great story Gary and very helpful.

Thanks my friend! Like pretty much everything else, it’s what’s underneath that counts! Or at least counts as much. Or the devil’s in the detail!

For those folks who care, this is about how you might chose to quiet certain interior parts that tend to make noise because of improper material match as well as the way in which the OEMs started to build components. This is of a particular problem for the later generations of Pontiacs & cars in general, from about 1990 to 2009 for Pontiac.

As these cars age and their materials age, they take compression set, dry out and become contaminated with all sorts of products and this problem only exacerbates with age! The fact is if you have a quiet riding car and your door panels, console, dash etc. make noise it’s annoying. There are also ways in which to make an already quiet vehicle even quieter! I will attempt to detail both. 

One problem with newer style components introduced by the OEMs from the late 80s to about 09 - 12, was basically the ability to make adjustments to components coupled with the fact that they didn’t isolate panels as they once did or there is no buffing of components, and if they have adjustments more often than not it requires bending something. Not unclamping moving and re-clamping to adjust a part. This along with the plastic fastener and no real outer perimeter clamping gives you panel movement, albeit minuscule, any can and does create that subtle noise that just irritates! I would explain how this was all handled so eloquently back in the day, but this isn’t the point of this subject. So I will start with the door panels and if this seems of interest to folks, I will move to other components that suffer from similar issues. 

Old skool OEM door panels were done in such a way that the interior panel was both isolated and locked into position. The isolation was done by using a waterproof treated paper that actually had a slippery surface on the panel side that interfaced the interior door panel. Plus the attaching inserts bayoneted into a plastic plug that actually stood the panel out slightly. The paper allowed minuscule movement while keeping things quiet as did the plastic inserts that were housed in the door frame. Additionally the top of the door panels actually clipped into brackets that served to secure the top of the panel as well as limit the movement of the glass when down. While at the arm rest and the bottom of the door were screws that clamped the door panel tight. The new style panels, late “80s” to about “12” have none of these. They take a formed plastic panel and at best wrap it in a fabric of some kind and fit it to painted steel that gives a coefficient of friction around .60 which is high enough to be sticky, but not sticky enough to stop movement, which can create a squeak type noise! They use nylon fasteners that don’t necessarily hold the panel tight enough to stop all movement and usually one or two screws at the pull handle only to secure the pull handle to the door for closing purposes. 

So the following is what I’ve done to place an Old Skool environment back into the new style design without changing the original look that the designer wanted. Isolation as well as a lock type environment needed to be returned as well as some needed sound deadening!

The first thing like most projects is to gather materials! I wanted the thickest visqueen I could find! For me that was at a local fabric store, 32 mils, the heaviest felt, 100 mils, that I could find to use as a sound barrier. A lighter weight felt, 40 mils, for uses as a movement buffer and better fitting plastic panel push fasteners. Contact cement, Great Stuff expandable urethane foam, liquid nails Fuze*It and last, but not least, 3Ms multi use duct tape (black).

My suggestion, to avoid breaking any of the push fastener stanchions, not the fastener itself, that are an integral part of the door panel itself, is to use a 1” putty knife that’s sharpened to shear the fasteners as opposed to just pulling on the panel. As most folks don’t have the proper tool to get under the panel and fastener itself, if you do, than use that. Remove any screws, than all wiring that is attach to the panel and than remove the panel carefully! Now you are ready to start cleanup. Cleanup what you determine is needed, that’s up to you, but remember dirt and grime are sheet metals enemy.

My detailing will be of “97” – “03” Grand Prix so you will need to interpolate this to your vehicle.
Now you can start to work on the door panels and making the pieces for the door interface to the door panel, visqueen and heavy felt, that will attach to the door. The door front panels have a heavy cotton pad/sheet adhered to it, remove this and set aside, you will reuse it. In the front panel at the bottom back part of the panel, where the red reflector/ light is, there is a very large hollow area. Your may choose to do what I did and fill this area with Great Stuff, see associated picture. You’ll need to build a wall around the reflector/ light to keep it isolated from the foam. Once you have applied the Great Stuff and it has cured, take a razor knife and cut away what is unneeded. This addition makes a marked difference in noise once all panels are finished with the additional work that needs done and reinstalled.

If you have a 4 door, similar work is done to the rear panel with great stuff, but this is done more to adhere the existing styrofoam insert to the door panel itself. The purpose of this is that the styrofoam insert again moves within the door panel creating its own noise when it’s supposed to quiet things. Using great stuff adheres the styrofoam without attacking it and also fills gaps and adds additional noise reduction. Also in the back panel there is a second styrofoam insert above the lower one, this one is retained by a plastic plate that is held by 4 retaining nuts. In the same manner in which the lower one can make noise so does this one. This foam piece though I use a different adhesive. I use liquid nails Fuze*It, this makes a strong bond without attacking the styrofoam and with this insert we don’t need too fill gaps and we don’t want to cause the insert to be push outward, as great stuff tends to do.

You should now have laid out and cut your visqueen and felt coverings for the doors from the OEM pieces. So since the doors are cleaned how you want them and the coverings are finished, it’s time to install them! This is where you’ll use the 3M multi use duct tape. Why this tape? Well when you use it you’ll understand, but the adhesion is next to none, which for this application is what you want. One reminder, don’t forget to make holes in both coverings for the screw holes for attaching the center of the panel. My advice is start at the top of the door with a few short pieces of tape, 3-4 inches long, on each end and in the middle. Making sure to align all the clearance holes for the plastic fasteners and screws properly. As you work through each covering, visqueen than felt do the entire perimeter in the 3M tape. Now with both coverings installed make sure all needed holes for screws and panel insert fasteners are clear as well as electrical pigtails have been brought through.

Now we turn to the door panel and adding the thinner felt to the door panels. Newer panels fit directly against the painted door frame, unlike old style panel as explained previously, and they are held taunt via the plastic fasteners. The long term problem with this is as the panels lose elasticity, take a compression set and get a bit more tacky, due to overall contamination and age, they start to squeak as they oscillate on the painted door frame. I take a lightweight black felt about a yard and a half long and cut strips about 3/4- to 1” wide. This is so I can run a felt edge around the perimeter of the door panel. Once I have cut my strips, I take the contact cement and an acid brush and paint a bead of cement on the back border edge of the panel about as wide as the strips. After 10 minutes I paint a second coat and than I paint a single coat of cement on one side of the felt. After about 5 minutes I start to lay the felt in place, making sure the the felt sits just slightly outside the edge of the panel, once installed you will not see the edge of felt if done right, but you’re trying the ensure that the felt is the buffer between the panel and the door frame!

Now to install the fasteners. In the case of the 2000 GP I used Balkamp fasteners, part# 665-1632 & 665-3465. These fit just a little tighter than the OEM part, which makes for a tighter hold to the door frame. The 665-1632 I use for the interior mounting stanchions that can’t be reached with a tool so they have to be pulled, aka the panel has to be pulled on, but for the perimeter I use the 665-3465 as they hold tighter. 

Well it’s time to install the panels! So make sure everything is as it needs to be because the last thing you want is to have to take the panel right back off. Check that all electrical is pulled through both coverings and where you want it. That all holes that needed cut have been done, that everything is taped. Make sure if you removed the inside window glass weather molding that bayonets to the steel edge is in place.

below is a front panel showing the ear that houses the tweeter. This is a separate added piece that is just affixed by melting two plastic pins. In turn this piece move and can make noise. By glueing it with th fuze it product it becomes much more rigid.

This is the door frame with the heavy visqueen installed

Again this is a front panel. This is the heavy OEM cotton pad that you will remove and place aside when you apply the great stuff foam to fill the large void area, as you can see that’s been already done here.

This is is a back panel. Notice the added great stuff to the styrofoam piece. Above that is the other pad you would use fuze it to glue to the panel to keep in quieter.

This is the 100 mils felt

Rear door covered with both the visqueen & felt.

Lightweight black with a single coat of contact cement.

Door panel with two coats of contact cement

Lightweight black installed on door panel.

20 hours ago, Frosty said:

Quick question Last Indian - two really....

1. Your high end premium gas - does it have one or two detergents in it? Most have only one - a handful have two - depending on the brand.

2. How often do you add your PEA fuel cleaner? 

I use Shell they use an LZ additive package, I attached a link, it will explain their fuel additive package, but it’s second to none. It has one detergent and a whole lot more.   The detergent is just part of the package. Detergents in general do very little for valve deposits, coking in the plenum or manifold or soot that gets pushed into the oil.

https://www.shell.us/motorist/shell-fuels/shell-nitrogen-enriched-gasolines.html

I add the PEA in the summer every third tank full and the winter, obviously for my other cars not the Indian, ever other tank full. As I said before I use Regane by Gumout and if you watch the Zone puts it on sale, 2 for 1 every so often.

P.S. I also use from time to time Sunoco 93 octane. They use Infineum’s fuel additive package which is also good.

If you can buy repops as JustA says that’s the best. There is a chrome power coat, but it’s not nearly as good a PVD! If you have to redo what you have I would recommend the PVD, most chrome wheels today are the PVD process.

13 hours ago, Bud Sisto said:

I have an 86 Parisienne and it got hit in the front fender. I'm having it repaired but I'm not sure if an aftermarket replacement at 20 guage thickness is oem. Anyone know the oem thickness as the used fender on Ebay is much more expensive. Thanksforany reply, Bud

20 ga. for 86 would be right! Some of the old cars, 30s, 40s were 14 & 16ga & most of the newer ones are 22 & even 24ga, because the have more tin in the alloy. That said the issue is really more about what is the alloy of the aftermarket fender? Which you can’t know! That’s what makes the fender good or bad more so than the gage of steel. 

Well I thought I would share this, some may think otherwise, but this is fact as I have said in the past, this was one of my development projects for about 10 years. 

The Indian has 39,000 miles on it.

Saturday I decided to change my cabin air filter in the Indian as well as the engine air filter among other things it’s been probably about 5 years since the last change, but I only average about 1000 miles a year on it since I retired, which will soon be 4 years. You’re going to see a picture of the throttle body. The TB has not been touched, cleaned or anything else since at least 2008 when I did the upper cylinder head work & plenum work! This thing is as clean & dry as can be, as if it were brand new & just installed!

This is because I use only a high end premium gas, a PEA fuel cleaner and change my oil & filter at least every 3000 miles, but it’s actually more like every 2000 - 2500 miles. 

Well, now have both the new front cover and the Kaminari front lower air dam. I’ll be starting the mock-up of the new design soon, as the end of the season is upon us on the North coast!

23 hours ago, Georgia Prixs said:

FINALLY finished my livery scheme... here is the end result.

And so should you! Nice job!

9 hours ago, Frosty said:

Well you have my attention. Who cares the deeper groove pulleys you mentioned!?

Summit racing or this place if you what to consider billet aluminum https://www.cvfracing.com/pontiac/ & they sell a setup for your Lucy!

13 hours ago, Frosty said:

 If  you get stuck in between Findlay and Deleware on US 23 or Chilichothe and Gallopolis on US 35 it is truly in the middle of nowhere USA. All farm country - drive it sometime....you wouldn't want to get stuck there either.

No idea on the belt. It was brand new. The repair shop can't explain it either. I am chalking it up to a defective manufactured belt for the moment.

I got a call on Friday from the repair shop. They can't explain why the one belt shredded. They don't see any alignment issues with the pulleys either. They replaced both belts and topped off the antifreeze. They can't find anything else. So right now I am only out $208.86. I will keep an eye on things just to make sure there wasn't any other damage though.

It was great to catch up with Pete and stratman. Stratman is truly a gentleman and I am happy to get to know him better. I hope he enjoyed the show enough to want to come back again.

Final car count for the show, according to their Facebook page, 761. The record for the show 968. The weather was perfect except for Sunday, when it rained and they cancelled the awards ceremony as a result.

Just blowing a little frost down your pants buddy! I’ve always told my wife this state is like two different states! If you split the state at the Cuyahoga river and carry that line south, the eastern half is lush green treed and looks a lot like Michigan! The western half is flat close enough to treeless farmland and kind of brown. 
 

Sorry about Lucy! Didn’t get hot enough to hurt the motor, right?

JustA thought though, I mention when you changed the tires the steering got harder and you had trouble with the pump, that you might need to go to a wider belt and deeper grooved pulleys. Sometimes when there is enough resistance in the steering it will show up in the belt by either shredding or climbing it of the pulley or both.

14 minutes ago, JUSTA6 said:

Safe trip home buddy. 

Copy that!

20 minutes ago, Frosty said:

If you've been on this website for any length of time, you know I never miss the Charleston WV Rod Run and Doo Wop. It is in it's 14th year, and I have been to 12 now. I missed the first two. Its the car show I close my season on. What a show it is.

This year started out badly. As most of you know, Lucy did not make the trip successfully. She suffere dcatastrophic failure less than 10 miles from home (hey it beats being in the middle of nowhere Ohio). A belt shredded, knocking the other belt off with it. This stopped the water pump. The engine overheated and I had anitfreeze steam come into the cabin and under the hood. Someone called the Fire Department thinking we were on fire. We got a tow truck to take Lucy to a local shop. My wife had her parents pick her up and she went home and got her Traverse. We met up again at the local car repair show were Lucy was towed. We unloaded Lucy and headed for Charleston.....albeit 2 or 3 hours behind schedule.

We got to Charleston without any other problems. We checked into the hotel, dropped off our bags and got out to Home Depot for chances in winning one of the $500 cash awards (after all I now I have a car to pay for when I get back!). The last ticket pulled was #403, I had ticket #404. so close!!!

It was weird not having to get up early Thursday morning to find my parking spot. I had called the show's parking "general" Kenny Wedensday and told him Lucy wasn't coming. No point in saving a spot for a car that is not going to be there. So I got a little extra sleep. I am not use to that....

Friday was time for the poker run. We meet up at the local Moose Lodge and then head out from there. This poker run is not well advertised or known about anymore. It was an all Chevy poker run, six Corvettes and a Traverse. Wanna' guess the guy without the Corvette? With so few participants the odds of winning go up. I managed to take 3rd place and win $100 with a pair of 4s, ace high. So now I have a little cash in my pocket to help fix Lucy with.

I ran across this gorgeous '81 Trans Am parked near the DJ stand. It looked kinda familiar although the hideous scratch along the right front fender and door were nothing to write home about.

This would be stratman's '81 Trans Am. He and I did indeed hook up here in Charleston. It was trully a pleasure to met the myth, the man, the car, the urban legend. I will let him give his impressions of the car show. I know he was disappointed that he could not check out Lucy (as was I) for that I am sorry. I guess I will have to get her fixed and bring her back nexy year.

This Impala 409 belongs to my buddy Pete Barber (aka Dual Quad Pete). Pete owns a '64 Parisenne wagon with a factory stick shift! Pete lives north of Toronto eh. On Thuesday night, the Doo Wop committee honored Pete for his continued dedication to the show. His participation officially makes the Doo Wop an international show. Pete was given a special award for it. It was well earned - oh and his car won a sponsor award too.   Note the missing man formation here!!! Thanks for saving me a spot at Home Depot Pete!

Great looking '70 GTO convertible.

This one is for notallthere!!!!

Great idea for a hood scoop, don't you think?

Love the license plate.

We have Starsky and Hutch, where's Huggy Bear?

1975 V8 Vega - this is the owner's second V8 Vega. Seems he owned one just out of high school.

The Cemetary Knight's latest creation - this thing has 4 turbochargers!!!!

Great looking '71 Monte Carlo convertible - it was built using a Lemans Sport Convertible since Chevy never made a Monte Carlo convertible.

JustA what hell does nowhere Ohio mean!! I take some serious issue with that! After all we have Buckeye’s, the nut of course! We have brownie’s, the desert of course, we have Indian’s I.E. Last Indian and ah ah, I got nothin! 
 

So what caused the belt issue? 

12 hours ago, Ineedhelp said:

I need help figuring out wether i need to replace my entire transmission or just part of it. I need to know what i broke. Transmissiin res is on right. Engine resevoir is on left

We’re going to need a little more than that my friend! What’s the issue? What kind of car? What happened? Definitely a better picture of what we’re looking at!

3 hours ago, mdrake said:

Not every startup but very often. Always cold startup

Sounds like one of two possibilities or both. A bad fuel filter, and or injectors that have heavy deposits. If you have never replaced the fuel filter, I would! Then get yourself several bottles of Gumout Regane, this is as good of a fuel injector/upper end induction system cleaner as there is. Add one bottle with a fill up and do that at least 4 times. If there is no improvement let us know what occurred and we’ll go from there.

1 hour ago, Jon67bonne said:

Last Indian.I was told the samething from my buddy that owns a 65 GTO. It looks amazing. It was done last year. I will be using Hammerite instead of the Line-X.

Good choice, but just be careful! It is a product that carries potential risk. The toluene and other aromatics are both breathing and skin absorption issues. Wear gloves and a mask if you work in a confined space, not outside space. At least wear gloves if ventilation isn’t an issue. And if you spray, which I don’t recommend, all the above plus protective clothing. 

Believe it or not the whole underneath of the Indian, car in the picture, was painted with a 1/2 high quality brush, 3 coats! The first coat will look a little hit and miss. The second starts to build volume and you’ll think you’re painting contact cement & the third goes on fairly nice. 

5 hours ago, mdrake said:

It has 230000 km on it now. The injectors have never been clean. It only happens after startup though for maybe 20 or so seconds and never again, seems odd. Would it not happen at all times if it was fuel related?

Every startup? Only cold startup, only hot startup?

22 minutes ago, mdrake said:

So often shortly after takeoff my 08 wave will start missing alot. The check engine light will turn on and start flashing usually. it doesn't last long and then it works normally. Iv'e have it scanned with a small scanner and nothing comes up.

Not much to go on, but first take it to a place that has a good scanner that will be able to see insitu data as well as past codes etc...

My best guess is fuel! How many miles? How often have you used fuel injector cleaner, what kind of cleaner? What kind of gas? All gas is not created equal irrelevant of what you’ve been told! Quite often clogged or deposit riddled injectors don’t show up as a code or even a problem on a scanner, but will wreak havoc on performance, up to and including miss fires!

18 hours ago, Jon67bonne said:

Basically keeping it stock. But with update radio, LineX sprayed frame. Replacing all engine and trans seals. Redo the stock interior and replacing the current bucket seats with the bench seat. Thats it basically nothing else. Im trying numbers matching for when I do shows

If I may, I would suggest you might also consider Hammerite rust cap paint. While LineX is a great paint and a good choice for a frame, I would tell you Hammerite is a better choice. The main difference between the two is dirt particulate adhesion. Hammerite is 30% glass particles. Which makes it very hard and durable, after currying and very slick. This makes it very easy to keep clean.

i would highly recommend Hammerite as I have used it for 50 years.

37 minutes ago, ProAc said:

07 GXP with about 200km on it. It's being sold as is at a small local used car dealer. 

Well only you can say if the asking price is reasonable, but 200k is a lot of abuse or love or a blend of the two, so carefully inspect the car, engine, suspension etc. also if you can inspect the passenger side, under the carpet to insure no water leakage has occurred over that 200k, carefully inspect the front subframe. The 04-09 aluminum subframes had cracking issues & the GXPs might have been more common due to hp.

That said how could you not get excited about a GXP!

14 hours ago, ofbsac said:

I like it. nice lead sled

We can do lead! Perfect car for it! Welcome!

Yes we love pics! Welcome Mike! Lots of folks here are happy to help offer assistance.