little update

[Ringo64]

That sucks, yeah definitely should have told you when you purchased it or in the directions.

That's cool the foil works that well!

[99gagt3x00]

pretty sure that Ben has always had something about the heads needing to be a certain RA in order to use the gaskets.

sounds like you need to find a new machine shop or at least one that knows what they are doing.

[AaronGTR]

pretty sure that Ben has always had something about the heads needing to be a certain RA in order to use the gaskets.

sounds like you need to find a new machine shop or at least one that knows what they are doing.

Yeah, it said on the little slip of paper that came with them that they needed to have a finish of 50 RA or better. Didn't say anything about requiring them to be decked, nor did it on his store or on the 60v6 forum anywhere. I specifically told the machine shop to check the heads to make sure they were flat since the old head gaskets failed, and I told them I was going to use MLS gaskets and needed a finish of at least 50 RA. The shop I used has the best reputation I could find in my area, and I would have to assume they should know what they are doing. They've done some major builds and used that type of gasket before. If the heads needed decking they should have been able to tell me. Guy in the office told me they were good and OK to use with the gaskets... so either he lied or he forgot to actually have his machinist check that. Either way, they both screwed up IMO and now I'm stuck going back to stock head gaskets because I don't have a second car anymore and I can't send these heads out for more machine work. Anything else I do to the car, I have to be able to finish in a weekend now. I could have done it the first time and been done with it if I had gotten the correct information. Instead I'm tearing my engine apart again, at extra cost and labor to me.

[valid]

I hate it when people don't do their jobs properly and it fucks other people over.

[havoc1482]

How do you get oil in the combustion chamber from a blown head gasket?

Not entirely sure, but I think it is from the oil that is inside the valve covers will leak into the piston? Something along those lines?

[AaronGTR]

BTW, I pulled the heads off last weekend and switched the gaskets out. I did end up finding signs of major oil leakage from the exhaust valve guide on cylinder #2, and after pulling that head and taking the valve spring off I found that the cap on the spring shim has broke off and it had worn down the outside of the valve guide. Luckily I had a complete set of stock heads I could swap on, but still... sucks that I now don't have the nice set of ported heads that I put all that time and money into. I'm going to take it back to the machine shop and ask them whats up with that. I used those springs/shims/retainers on those heads for probably 12k miles with no issues, then get the heads back from them and the damn things junk after 1,000 miles?! It's probably going to need a new valve guide pressed in now.

This was the underside of the head. Nice carbon build up! [sarcasm]

Busted spring shim on the right.

The #2 exhaust port. Heavy build up and an obvious oil trail coming from the guide and out the port. There was wet oil and carbon build up in the header primary too.

[Jedi3]

That friggen blows!

[Ringo64]

Ouch! Sorry to hear

That has to be horrible especially after all the time/money into rebuilding and doing it

[AaronGTR]

Update: I took the heads to the machine shop yesterday for them to look at. They said they had never seen a spring shim get chewed up like that before and don't know what would have caused it. As for the oil getting in the combustion chambers, since I was only getting smoke occasionally at idle and not while driving or any big puff of smoke when I hit the throttle, they said that was an indication that it was only pulling oil in from somewhere under high vacuum which means it probably isn't the piston rings. It's more likely from LIM gaskets, valve seals, or head gaskets.

They did say they've seen a lot of sealing problems with MLS gaskets, especially on Nissans. If they aren't perfectly flat and smooth they won't seal up properly, and they agreed that sometimes they do need copper gasket spray, even though Cometic says they don't. Some head milling machines simply aren't capable of producing a smooth enough surface, and the spray is needed to fill in the tiny imperfections and create a tight seal. They also said the factory head finish is typically the best, and they don't like to mill the heads unless the surface flatness is off by .003" or more. If it's .002" or less they usually don't touch it, and they didn't mill mine so he said they should be flat.

However they did recommend that I not use the MLS gaskets and use a stock type gasket. They said at my power level a MLS gasket shouldn't be needed, and that good tuning and the head studs should be enough to keep them from blowing. One theory they had was that the combination of the head studs and MLS gaskets could have contributed to the leak, because those parts from different manufacturers aren't designed to work together. The OEM style gaskets are more compressable and allow the heads to expand downward slightly with thermal expansion. They also asked the torque specs for stock head bolts and the ARP studs, and said the studs should only be clamping around 15-20 ft/lbs more than the bolts, but that they don't stretch as much as the bolts do. It's possible that the combination of the MLS gaskets which are harder metal and would expand themselves under heating, and the stronger head studs, where not allowing the heads to expand and contract as they normally would and could have caused distortion making the gaskets not seal as they normally would.

Normally when you take the LIM off you can also see a line around the ports where the gasket touches. On my ported LIM the line for the gasket looked good around three sides but on the top of the ports it looked like the gasket was right at the edge of the manifold. Perhaps with the thermal distortion it could have caused the head or LIM to lift up or pull apart somehow and reduce the sealing pressure there letting oil mist from the lifter galley get pulled in when the vacuum was high enough? It would sort of make sense with what I saw. There was a light oil residue in all the intake ports that didn't look like oil leaking from the valve guides because it went up past the valve guides into the LIM runners. I thought this was just residue from the PCV system, but maybe it was from the gasket leaking.

Anyway, for now I have stock heads back on with the felpro head and LIM gaskets. The machine shop has my other heads and they are going to recheck them for flatness then check all the valve guides and the rest of them again. They said they will let me know what they find, and they will replace the #2 exhaust valve guide and give me a new spring shim. If any of the other valve guides are bad then we might replace them all, but they would have to re-do the valve job then. So we'll see what happens. For now my supercharger got here today so I need to go reinstall that, and I have parts on the way for the headers. I decided I was tired of the crossover pipe not lining up right, so while I still have my welder I am cutting off the flared ends and replaced them with v-band flanges.

__________________

[99gagt3x00]

sounds like you really need to find a new machine shop preferably one that knows what they are doing/talking about.

[Jedi3]

SappySE107 got slapped with the ban hammer.

Im done with him crapping on this thread.

thread cleaned up.

[AaronGTR]

sounds like you really need to find a new machine shop preferably one that knows what they are doing/talking about.

Well, they do seem like they know what they are talking about actually... and they've built a far larger number and variety of engines than certain other people I won't mention, so I think for now I'll at least see what they have to say after they fully inspect the heads.

On other news... I got my blower back today, and my exhaust parts also got here. I'm going to change the flanges on my headers to v-bands to make them easier to get together, along with a slight adjustment to the cross over pipe because it doesn't really line up properly and is a PITA to get bolted up. Anyway, I went to put the blower back in today, and instead found a huge amount of oil in my intake. Apparently my PCV line was sucking up too much oil from the valve cover and it was puddling behind the throttle plate and running into the intake tube. Soooo one more problem to solve, and I want to fix that before I put the blower back in so it doesn't get all oily.

The oil in the pan was about 1/4 of a quart low in a very short amount of time, so I'm wondering if the PCV system was actually responsible for some of my oil consumption before (along with that exhaust valve guide). Kinda weird since it's had a catch can in the line and had a PCV valve until two weeks ago. There is just a check valve right now but I'm going to add a PCV valve back in the line and try a few other things to see if I can keep the oil in the pan!

[99gagt3x00]

Well, they do seem like they know what they are talking about actually... and they've built a far larger number and variety of engines than certain other people I won't mention, so I think for now I'll at least see what they have to say after they fully inspect the heads.

i beg to differ on that since they are telling you not to run parts just because they are from to different manufacturers. people have been doing this since the beginning.

so just because you have problems unrelated to the head gaskets it's Ben's fault. you need to fix the pcv issue and if that doesn't work check the rings.

[AaronGTR]

i beg to differ on that since they are telling you not to run parts just because they are from to different manufacturers. people have been doing this since the beginning.

so just because you have problems unrelated to the head gaskets it's Ben's fault. you need to fix the pcv issue and if that doesn't work check the rings.

They didn't specifically tell me not to run parts from two different manufacturers. They told me that it might have caused an issue. Just because a person can run those two parts together on one engine from a different make doesn't mean I can run them on my engine and that there might not be problems. In case you didn't notice, engines are pretty complex ... different engine designs might react differently to the same part combinations. That is common sense. And anyway they also said that was only a theory, not the answer. So far they have been very professional in their dealings with me, and haven't given me any reason not to trust them, where Ben on the other hand has not. He sold me a shitty pair of gaskets for $190, didn't provide me with the necessary information to use them, and then blamed their failure on me. He's being an asshole.

I'm am working on fixing the PCV issue today. I can tell you right now it's NOT the piston rings though. He has no clue wtf he is talking about on that one... they are good. I did everything by the book so there's no way they could be bad. Regardless I'll be doing a compression test as soon as I can get a good compression tester, just so he'll shut up about the rings. My compression tester has a bad pressure relief valve and isn't holding pressure like it should.

[AaronGTR]

Update on todays work. Went and bought a new compression tester just for the hell of it and did a compression test. Pressure was between 175-180psi on every cylinder and pressure built up exactly as it was supposed to as described in the manual. So much for the "your rings are bad" theory.

I made some changes to the PCV system to make it more like the final system will be once the SC is back in. I took another stainless scrub pad like I used in my catch can and I sandwiched it between the splash shield and valve cover on the inside of the valve cover. Hopefully that will act as sort of a pre-filter and help block any heavy oil splash from getting behind the shield and sucked up the line. Then I sanded down the threads on the brass fitting I had JB welded in the valve cover port, just enough so the old PCV valve would slide in. Didn't take much. I put some RTV around the outside of the valve and pushed it in, so that should keep it from leaking at all. In the reading I did last night I found the PCV isn't just a check valve but also meters the flow volume depending on the vacuum applied to it and the pressure in the crank case, so I guess it has to stay in the system. The OEM line size is 3/8" so I changed out all the NPT/hose barb fittings for 3/8" and changed all the hose over to 3/8" hose instead of the 1/2" I was using. Hopefully that will keep the flow volume and speed correct. Last thing I did was put my check valve on the outlet side of the catch can, since that is the side it will be on anyway when the SC is on.

I also ordered another catch can from elite engineering. It's designed for LS engines, but catch cans are pretty universal and it has the correct 3/8" fittings I need. All I have to do is make my own bracket instead of using the one they provide. Then I'll have a dual can system. Ships tomorrow so it should be here next week.

[AaronGTR]

Seems like the PCV fix worked. No sign of oil at all in the intake after 2 days of driving. Going to check it again on saturday after putting some more miles on it to be sure how well it is working.

[Ringo64]

That's good!