Last Indian

Boundary chemistry, how it works or in some cases doesn’t. Additive packages for oils have all kinds of chemistry’s in them to deal with all kinds of issues that effect engine oils. One particular form is boundary layer chemistry. These are chemicals that bond to parts through types of reaction. Heat, pressure, positive charged particles vs negative charged particles and so on. Most of these chemistry’s compete with each other for a surface area, so just throwing in any old chemistry in any amount doesn’t work! Like over additizing ZDDP!  
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, better known as ZDDP, is an oil additive invented by Lubrizol in 1941. Some may know that this is who I work for, for nearly 40 years, so when I say I am very familiar with ZDDP, I am.
Adding ZDDP to a lubricating film works by forming a protective barrier on rubbing surfaces. More specifically, a glassy phosphate-based tribofilm forms and provides boundary layer protection. Film formation doesn't require rubbing contact, but the shear stress between surfaces allow for films to form faster. ZDDP can also form on non-ferrous surfaces like aluminum and even ceramics, silicon, or on DLC coatings. However, at temperatures below 25C, ZDDP are slower to form. At elevated temperatures above 150C, ZDDP can react to form thermal films in the absence of rubbing. This is why depending on the engine use, racing, street, cruising etc… ZDDP may be minimally used or exhausted! Because at the end of the day ZDDP is a sacrificial boundary layer that wears away and then reforms or is constantly being formed or stops being formed when the environment isn’t right!
ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES
AW additives are effective at moderate loads and temperatures. They are used between 0.25% and 3% by weight in fully formulated oil. Depending on the amounts of oxygen present, the applied load and oil temperature, they form durable films mainly composed of sulfate, sulfide and polyphosphates of zinc, iron or other cation species. These films are replenished as long as the additive is present.
Most AW additives are phosphates, and many are supplemented with sulfur or molybdenum containing compounds or other metals to alter performance. Tricresyl phosphates (TCP), amine phosphates, molybdenum dithiocarbamates (MoDTC) and molybdate esters are typical AW additives, but zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) is the most widely used because of its superior performance in many applications, but for fuel economy ZDDP is not a chemistry of choice!
There are two types of ZDDP, primary formed from primary alcohols that have greater thermal stability and less volatile phosphorus, which benefits engine oil applications but less effective anti-wear action. Secondary ZDDP comes from secondary alcohols and have more effective anti-wear action but lower thermal stability and more volatile phosphorus, which is detrimental in engine oils. So you see not all ZDDP’s are created equal and not all are beneficial in oils as anti- wear! Under certain conditions, ZDDP promotes deposit formation at elevated temperatures (e.g., TEOSTTM 33C). It also promotes wear under certain conditions (e.g., timing chains). And the phosphorus from blow-by poisons automotive catalysts. In the early 2000s, the level of ZDDP was reduced in gasoline engine oils. But it is one of the most effective and inexpensive AW agents available, so in recent years the industry has been reluctant to drop it further, fearing that using alternatives could lead to warranty problems long term. Discussions on both sides will continue because it is critical in the automotive segment.

The complex zinc and iron-based polyphosphates and glassy films that form on metal surfaces from ZDDP increases modulus under high loads and temperatures allowing the film to maintain integrity and have ‘smart’ behavior. The film becomes stronger when load increases, like during engine startup, to enhance the anti-wear benefits when they are needed most. For this reason ZDDP’s effectiveness at protecting machinery of all types against wear is superior to most other options.
Even though ZDDP is the work- horse and industry standard for transmission and internal combustion engine’s, limits on its use in engine oils has been mandated because of concerns around phosphorus as a catalyst poison for emission control systems, and zinc, which contributes to ash contents and has detrimental effects on diesel engine diagnostic systems.
For this reason, there is growing interest in ashless AW additives. Two types are thiophosphate based, which contain phosphorus and sulfur, and phosphate based, which contain only phosphorus. Selection depends on the application. Those with higher thermal stability are used in aviation applications. Those containing amines are less compatible with elastomer seals.

Moly, Mos2, MoDTC are better anti-wear agents than ZDDP with respect to new vehicles that use cats. Unlike ZDDP which can actually hurt fuel economy, Moly actually improves anti-wear & fuel economy! So why not use both? These two chemistry’s compete for the same surface area! Why not just use Moly? You guessed it Moly costs substantially more to make! Unlike ZDDP you can put large volumes in the oil, which we did for some OEM testing, but when you approach 700ppm the oil starts to turn orange and the push back we got was,”people won’t want orange oil!
 

                        Engine & Transmission Oils, their chemistry what it means!
                                           what their color changes can indicate.

Ok, let’s start with some basics that I think most folks know. W or weight, this stands for the first numeric number in the oils designation and refers to winter weight or viscosity in winter at 0 Fahrenheit. So 10 W 40 means the 10 is the winter viscosity not cold start viscosity! That temperature rating is 0 Fahrenheit, not the temperature when you start the car cold! Say you have a high performance muscle car and you only drive it from late spring to early fall and it’s garaged. Most likely you have more bearing clearance than newer engines. You would probably want to run a 20W40 or 20W50 because you are never going to be starting the engine at a low temperature. Which means you want a little more cushion on startup. Something you’re not going to get from a 5 or 10 weight, but remember the 5 or 10 weight is not a 5 or 10 at 60 or 70 degrees ambient temperature, it thicker! So if it’s a 20W50 and the ambient temperature is 65 Fahrenheit the cold start viscosity is not 20 it is thicker maybe 25 maybe 30 it would depend on the actual oil temperature.

Crude oil! No! not all crude is created equal! This is one very good reason to look for the API certified mark on your oil! The American Petroleum Institute certifies that the oil used for making that oil is from good crude among a lot of other things. As a side note there are crudes that can actually cause harm to an engine if used for a motor oil! The oil that you buy that is API approved goes through a multitude of certified testing to get its API approval. These test include test such as deposit test for valves, rings and in general engine sludge. Test for wear. Test for fuel economy. Test for emissions. Test for emulsion and many more. So when an oil is not API approved you are literally playing Russian roulette!

Conventional oil vs synthetic vs semisynthetic! What are they? Conventional oil, this is the oil that comes from the refineries as base stock oil for motor oil. The oil manufacturers then do whatever further refinements they choose and then add their respective additive packages. 
Synthetic oils, these oils come from the same crude as conventional oils most of the time, but then they are taken through a synthesis process! Quite often only certain parts of the crude oil are used. Then other components and compounds are added and some of those pieces are non organic materials. This is all blended almost exclusively under trade secret! Then they add the additive package they have chosen.
Semisynthetic oil, this is as it sounds, a blending of the two! Part conventional and part synthetic! The advantage here would be a better shear stable viscosity oil than a conventional oil, but at a lower price than a synthetic oil. Still this oil follows in the same line of thought as the full synthetic! Extending the drain out further because of viscosity stability or cost is counterproductive! 
This why a synthetic oil cost so much more, there are a lot of extra steps and expense. So what exactly do you get for that? Well from my personal perspective, other than constant viscosity numbers that don’t succumb to shear forces over time! Not much! All the negative impact that occurs to an engines oil does not change by using synthetic oil! All the dirt ingestion, all the fuel dilution, all the combustion gases, all the additives that get depleted, etc., still happen! If you don’t care about the extra expense and treat the synthetic oil as you would conventional oil, then by all means do that! If you are going to extend out the drain intervals because you use synthetic, that is actually counterproductive! Other than viscosity performance, your engine may suffer in the long run depending on a variety of variable factors! Of course if you put a lot of miles on your car and you don’t keep it more than 3 to 4 years and don’t intend to keep it beyond that. Than that’s not such a bad thing! 

This might be of some interest to some with respect to the whole extended drain issue. At one point back about 2006 and than again around 2010 an OEM approach our team, we were a group of 5 that dealt with these type of projects at the corporate level, about a fill for life engine lubricant! The idea was to use a full synthetic oil with a special filter that, beside the filter element would house a delayed slow release additive package that would maintain TBN, address friction wear, mileage improvements, etc. for the warranty period. We did actually prove the concept, but in the end to many other issues were on the horizon for them that I think got in the way! 

Next up Boundary layer chemistry. How it works why it’s important & and some of the issues with it!

One last thing on the subject, I know the gentleman from my days of dealing with Joe Gibbs Racing, yes NASCAR! You can read through the entire article if you wish, but you can if you wish just scroll down to the underlined paragraph. It will tell you all you really need to know! 
His article is below

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Of course I've always known that my carefully generated “motor oil wear protection capability data” was completely accurate, but now my data has been validated and backed-up by a total of FOUR other independent Industry sources. They are as follows:

1. Well known and respected Engineer and Tech Author David Vizard, whose own test data, largely based on real world engine dyno testing, has concluded that more zinc in motor oil can be damaging, more zinc does NOT provide today's best wear protection, and that using zinc as the primary anti-wear component, is outdated technology.

2. The GM Oil Report titled, "Oil Myths from GM Techlink", concluded that high levels of zinc are damaging and that more zinc does NOT provide more wear protection.

3. A motor oil research article written by Ed Hackett titled, "More than you ever wanted to know about Motor Oil", concluded that more zinc does NOT provide more wear protection, it only provides longer wear protection.

4. This from the Brad Penn Oil Company:
There is such a thing as too much ZDDP. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a detriment. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive performance. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will “tie-up” detergents thus encouraging corrosive wear. ZDDP effectiveness plateaus, more does NOT translate into more protection. Only so much is utilized. We don’t need to saturate our oil with ZDDP.

Those who are familiar with my test data, know that my test results came up with the exact same results stated by all four of those independent sources. So, this is an example where motor oil “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load” using oil testing equipment, engine dyno testing, Motor Oil Industry testing, and proper motor oil research using only the facts, from a total of five (including my own) independent sources, all converged to agree and come to the same exact conclusion. Back-up validation proof, doesn't get any better than this. 

So, with all those sources in total agreement, that should provide more than enough proof to anyone who questioned my test data, that my data is absolutely correct. And that questioning any one of those sources, questions them all, and questions Physics and Chemistry that determined all those identical results. And no sensible person would try to argue against Physics and Chemistry. Because that is a battle no man can win.

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Now, getting to the purpose of this write-up, a NASCAR engine supplier out of North Carolina, was so impressed with the motor oil “Wear Protection Capability Testing” I perform, that they sent me 3 NASCAR Racing Oils they use, for testing. I considered that quite an endorsement, that these guys valued my testing efforts enough to include me, in some of what they do. They have been seeing some wear issues, and wanted to see if I could shed any light on that by testing their oil. They came to the right place.

The NASCAR oils they sent me were:

0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil (this was out of a 55 gallon drum)

0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil (this was out of a normal quart bottle)

0W50 Mobil 1 Racing Oil (this was out of a 55 gallon drum)

In addition to performing my normal “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load”, I also sent all 3 oils to the Professional Lab, ALS Tribology in Sparks, Nevada for them to perform component quantity and viscosity testing. The test results from the lab are:

0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil synthetic (lab tested 2013)
Silicon = 7 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)

Boron = 74 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Magnesium = 14 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Calcium = 1938 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Zinc = 1952 ppm (anti-wear)

Phos = 1671 ppm (anti-wear)

Moly = 1743 ppm (anti-wear)

Potassium = 4 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

Sodium = 1 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

TBN = 8.2 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9) 

Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 6.1, and cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.

0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil synthetic (lab tested 2013)
Silicon = 17 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)

Boron = 67 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Magnesium = 13 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Calcium = 1823 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Barium = 10 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Zinc = 1693 ppm (anti-wear)

Phos = 1667 ppm (anti-wear)

Moly = 1326 ppm (anti-wear)

Potassium = 4 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

Sodium = 1 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

TBN = 8.0 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9)

Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.3 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.

0W50 Mobil 1 Racing Oil synthetic (lab tested 2013)
Silicon = 8 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)

Boron = 74 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Magnesium = 212 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Calcium = 1694 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant, anti-deposit buildup/anti-sludge)

Zinc = 1676 ppm (anti-wear)

Phos = 1637 ppm (anti-wear)

Moly = 1263 ppm (anti-wear)

Potassium = 4 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze corrosion inhibitor)

TBN = 8.4 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9) 

Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 17.6, cSt range for SAE 50 is 16.3 to 21.8, and cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.

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After I performed my “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load”, you can see below how those 3 NASCAR oils ranked regarding “Wear Protection Capability”, just among other Mobil 1 oils I’ve tested, as well as among other oils I’ve tested that had “Racing Oil” in their name. And they are all ranked in the order of their “Wear Protection Capability” values.

Wear protection reference categories are: 

• Over 90,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection

• 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection

• 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection

• Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection

The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the Wear Protection.

1. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only synthetic = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phosphorus = 3489 ppm
moly = 1764 ppm
calcium = 2,929 ppm

2. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic, street oil = 105,875 psi
zinc = 801 ppm
phosphorus = 842 ppm
moly = 112 ppm
calcium = 799 ppm

3. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi 
zinc = 1669 ppm
phosphorus = 1518 ppm
moly = 784 ppm
calcium = 1,607 ppm

4. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi 
zinc = 1472 ppm
phosphorus = 1544 ppm
moly = 3 ppm
calcium = 2,707 ppm

5. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi 
zinc = 1180 ppm
phosphorus = 1112 ppm
moly = 162 ppm
calcium = 2,664 ppm

6. 10W30 Amsoil Dominator Racing Oil synthetic = 97,118 psi
zinc = 1613 ppm
phos = 1394 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

7. 30 wt Red Line Race Oil synthetic = 96,470 psi
zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm
moly = 1235 ppm

8. 0W20 Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy, API SN synthetic, street oil = 96,364 psi
zinc = 742 ppm
phos = 677 ppm
moly = 81 ppm

9. 10W30 Joe Gibbs XP3 NASCAR Racing Oil synthetic = 95,543 psi 
zinc = 743 ppm
phos = 802 ppm
moly = 1125 ppm

10. 5W30 Maxima RS530 Synthetic Racing Oil = 91,162 psi
zinc = 2162 ppm
phos = 2294 ppm
moly = 181 ppm

11. 20W50 LAT Synthetic Racing Oil, API SM = 87,930 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

12. 5W30 Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15,000 mile, API SN synthetic, street oil = 83,263 psi
zinc = 890 ppm
phos = 819 ppm
moly = 104 ppm

13. 5W30 LAT Synthetic Racing Oil, API SM = 81,800 psi
zinc = 1784 ppm
phos = 1539 ppm
moly = 598 ppm

14. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) synthetic = 74,860 psi 
zinc = 1421 ppm
phos = 1338 ppm
moly = 204 ppm

15. 0W50 Mobil 1 Racing Oil = 73,811 psi
zinc = 1676 ppm
phos = 1637 ppm
moly = 1263 ppm
Onset of thermal breakdown = 270*F

16. 0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil = 71,923 psi
zinc = 1693 ppm
phos = 1667 ppm
moly = 1326 ppm
Onset of thermal breakdown = 280*F

17. 15W50 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic, street oil = 70,235 psi
zinc = 1,133 ppm
phos = 1,168 ppm
moly = 83 ppm

18. 5W30 Klotz Estorlin Racing Oil, API SL synthetic = 64,175 psi
zinc = 1765 ppm
phos = 2468 ppm
moly = 339 ppm

19. 0W20 Klotz Estorlin Racing Oil, API SL synthetic = 60,941 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

20. 10W40 Torco TR-1 Racing Oil with MPZ conventional = 59,905 psi
zinc = 1456 ppm
phos = 1150 ppm
moly = 227 ppm

21. 10W40 Summit Racing Premium Racing Oil, API SL = 59,483 psi
This oil is made for Summit by I.L.C.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
NOTE: This oil line was discontinued in Spring 2013.

22. 0W20 LAT Synthetic Racing Oil, API SM = 57,228 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

23. 0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil = 55,080 psi
zinc = 1952 ppm
phos = 1671 ppm
moly = 1743 ppm
Onset of thermal breakdown = 210*F, which was confirmed by repeated tests. This is the WORST/LOWEST onset of thermal breakdown point I’ve ever seen. So, this oil is STARTING TO FAIL even before getting hot enough to quickly boil off normal water condensation. And this is on top of its very poor wear protection capability. Mobil should be embarrassed to even offer this oil for sale.

So, as you can see, these Mobil 1 Racing Oils were poorly ranked at 15th, 16th and 23rd, out of these 23 oils above.

And if you look at my “Wear Protection Ranking List” of all 104 oils I’ve tested so far, you’ll see they rank 65th, 72nd and 99th.

The wind-up is that the 0W50 Mobil 1 Racing Oil and the 0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil only provide MODEST wear protection, while the 0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil only provides UNDESIRABLE wear protection. So, it is quite clear that these modest/poor performing motor oils are NOT a good choice for NASCAR small block endurance engines that make around 900HP, rev between 9,000 and 10,000 rpm, and do that for hundreds of miles. For applications like this, choosing an oil is just as important as choosing the engine components.

All 3 of these oils might look good on paper for wear protection, since the zinc, phos and moly are all substantial. However, this is yet another example of how looking at a Lab Test Print Out of an oil’s component quantities, shows you absolutely nothing regarding how well it can protect against wear. The ONLY way to determine the FACTS as to how well an oil can protect against wear, is to perform “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load”, which is precisely why I test oil that way. 

You don’t just rely on an engine’s build sheet to guess its power/torque characteristics. You dyno test it and track test it, to find out how it really performs in operation. It’s the same thing with testing motor oil. You don’t just rely on an oil’s Lab Test Print Out, you need to test it dynamically at a representative operational temperature to find out what its wear protection capabilities really are.

The wear issues this NASCAR engine supplier was experiencing with these oils, is exactly what you would expect by looking at my “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load” test results, which showed that the oils were severely lacking in wear protection capability. Unfortunately, they had no way of knowing this before they started using these oils. But, if I had tested these oils BEFORE they started using them, I could have saved them time, money and grief.

An oil’s ability to protect against wear, is determined by its base oil and its additive package “as a whole”, NOT just by how much zinc is present. Using zinc as the primary anti-wear component, is outdated technology. The idea that you need a high level of zinc for a high level of wear protection, is simply an old MYTH that has been BUSTED. Many of today’s anti-wear components (they are often proprietary in nature, and are not specifically tested for, in a basic Lab Test) are not only equal to zinc, but they are BETTER than zinc.

Until I started performing Tribology Research, and setup my motor oil “Wear Protection Capability Ranking List”, there was no good way to know which oils provided good wear protection, and which oils didn’t. Previously, all we could do was guess, or use trial and error to determine which oil was good enough, and which oil was not. And even then, we had no way of knowing how various “good enough” oils compared among themselves. But now, we have documented wear test data available. So, all we have to do is look at the Ranking List, and choose an oil that provides the wear protection we are comfortable with for any given build. This is the 21st Century, and we no longer have to guess or use trial and error to decide on which oil to use.

Also, engines are best served by using oils that have excellent wear protection capability (no matter how much zinc is in them) during Break-In. If folks use these superior oils, and avoid traditional high zinc, low wear protection capability Break-In oils and avoid aftermarket zinc additives which actually REDUCE an oil’s wear protection capability, worries about flat tappet Break-In procedures could become a thing of the past.

The “Wear Protection” test data here DIRECTLY APPLIES to flat tappet lobe/lifter interfaces (no matter how wicked the engine), distributor gear/cam gear interfaces, mechanical fuel pump pushrod tip/cam eccentric interfaces, and all highly loaded engine interfaces.

BOTTOM LINE:
I have no doubt that this Professional NASCAR engine supplier is using good quality engine components, and that they are building their engines well, so all they need to do is select better oils, and their wear issues will go away. Fortunately, there are many, many far better oils available for them to choose from. Even 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic street oil, that is available at any Auto Parts Store, provides a whopping 47% MORE WEAR PROTECTION than the 0W30 Mobil 1 Racing Oil. 

Of course, there can be friction reduction capability differences between street oil and Racing Oil. And keep in mind, that friction reduction and wear protection are two entirely different things, and often do not go hand in hand. If a particular Racing Oil does provide reduced friction, that can increase HP. But, you still have to finish, and you have to run strong to win. So, no matter what, your oil has to provide adequate wear protection to get the job done.

If I were choosing the oils for this NASCAR endurance engine application, as an Engineer, I’d only select oils from the OUTSTANDING wear protection category, which means oils that produce at least 90,000 psi capability in my testing. Any oil in that category would provide sufficient margin of safety to prevent any further wear issues.
 

19 hours ago, Frosty said:

Last Indian. I think motor oil is a good topic / thread to start. There are a lot of things/variables we should consider and you might be one to guide us. I think there are a lot of misconceptions and "well that's what I've always bought" mentality out there. No one has actually explained some of the more advanced science behind motor oil such as:.

TBN vs TAB

Viscosity

API 

ZDDP - what is it and why is it important - especially to older cars like our classic cars but not so much to modern cars.

What do the various motor oil weights mean like 0W-50, 10W-30, 20W-30, SAE50, etc and how do they effect engine performance, longevity, and reliability.

When should you use a particular weight oil vs. another?

I could do that. I could even give a basic explanation as to how color can be used effectively to know what’s going on in your engines oil as well as your automatic transmissions oil.

19 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Last Indian, your going to have to explain what is the TBN number  🙄

 

18 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

I'm with ya kiwi boni,  don't know the TBN from the TAN.  Justa always been a fan of Castrol.  The Sunbird and GTO don't see 500 mi a year.  I know oil breaks down with age, so usually change the oil every other year on the Hotrods,  3 to 3500 on the daily drivers.  GM gets AC only filters and the trucks get Motorcraft. 

Sure, I can do that Kiwi! TBN stands for total base number. This comes minimally from the base stock of oil but mostly from the additive package. This number is actually the measurement of potassium hydroxide per gram of oil. This is as I said actually the single most important piece of chemistry in the oil. This chemistry is what neutralize acid in the oil! TAN total acid number. As acid builds up in the oil due to many things, combustion, oxidation, wear metals, chemistry degradation, etc. acid can result in more acid, the more abrasion that occurs in the engine, the more acid! Basically because the slipperiness of the oil is going away! Even when the film thickness is there it becomes more sandpaper than lubrication. As acid builds up so does varnish/lacquer! Varnish decreases film thickness and actually creates resistance to oil flow, yes really! 

I will try to explain this as clearly as I can. If you take a new oil that has a 8 TBN rating, this is what Castrol GTX 20w50 has, and you run it 1500 to 2000 miles, you should have a reserve of TBN, unless you have a lot of fuel dilution or you been really running hard. So you would not have used all the TBN, but you still don’t know where the TAN is! Let’s just say for whatever reason the TBN is 3.5, but the TAN is 4! That’s a TBN/TAN crossover! That means the oil is more acidic than base, that’s bad! Along with everything else in the engine that is trying to cause wear mechanically, you also now have a chemical corrosion occurring. This type of corrosion can be even worse because it continues even after the engine has stopped for a period of time! If an oil is API approved it means it has enough of the appropriate additives in it for basic use, but it doesn’t address the TBN level or the zinc level! Both are crucial elements! To little TBN and to many hours of operation is bad as explained. Too much ZDDP and again that’s bad and if you run a cat, really not good!
The last 20 years of my career were spent exclusively working on development projects that addressed engine preservation, oil drain extension and high mileage maintenance through chemistry. The single piece that was over and over addressed to accomplish this was the TBN vs TAN. This is clearly not the only thing needed and many other components are likewise very important.
One product we developed was a delayed slow release product that was used to add TBN into the oil over time which kept the TBN level at a elevated level longer. We did testing on a taxi cab fleet in Vegas. These engines had a hundred thousand plus miles on them, they were dirty and varnished up motors. After one year on the product the engines were reinspected. The results were much cleaner engines with such a reduction in the varnish it was striking.

The last thing I would say is the same as I’ve said before! As a general rule if you change your oil at 3000 miles most of the time with today’s oils, you should be good no matter what brand you run. A better choice would be to change it the way I have since I was young, by color! Why color? Color is a basic form of spectroscopy. Different things that take place in the oil under all the variables of an engine effect the color! 

If there is an interest I could expound upon this further, but I really don’t want to bore or carry on and on.
 

18 hours ago, Ponchoguy said:

So my machine shop highly recommended Brad Penn/Penngrade oil. This is the first time I’ve used it. I do not have a problem spending the extra money on good oil. I just thought this would make for a nice topic. I’m sure there are a lot of opinions on this. Stay healthy and let’s hear the stories guys!!!

 

1 hour ago, JUSTA6 said:

I've always liked the Castrol 20w-50.

Yes, folks all have their own opinions on what oil to use, what’s best and so on, but at the end of the day most folks don’t really have the knowledge about what makes a good oil or why! That would include your machine shop! As I doubt any of them are chemist or know what the technical numbers mean! So I will try to explain again just from a purely factual point. 

Most of the expense in buying an oil is in the additive package, which for the most part really makes or breaks an oil. Than would come the grade of the crude they use, which has its own impact. Than the blending of the two together can really make or break the final product. Obviously the best oils use top tier crude as well as top tier additives, but different companies tailor their additives packages and this is what sets the best apart. So that might seem simple, but there is one more element, the consumer! He as much as the additive package makes or breaks the final results of the oil! 

An example is if I asked what is the most important element to an engine oil what would most people say? Most of the time, viscosity! That would be wrong! While viscosity is very important it has been documented that an engine can run on 0 viscosity! No I’m not promoting that. I’m just saying it’s not #1. TBN is the number one element in an oil, period! Without the proper TBN your engine would have a very short life. Yet if you run a lower TBN number oil and understand when to change it, that’s acceptable.

So while the PennGrade oil has good specs relatively speaking the ZDDP numbers are quite concerning 1500ppm is to much! Especially when you use it over and over! To much ZDDP cause corrosive wear in all the places you are trying to protect. Anything above 850ppm starts to get iffy. This also why this oil is not approved by the API! 
Where as JustA is using Castrol, this has a lower TBN than the PennGrade but uses sulphated ash as the wear additive, which is actually a better, more controllable additive for this process. It’s also harder to over additize this way and Castrol is using it in the proper dosage. I’m also sure JustA changes his oil at the proper time before TBN vs TAN crossover.

There is a lot more than this to an oil. This just touches on a very small element of an oils makeup and function. Who knew!
 

we men are sooooo screwed

this is just temporary! Wait tell you retire!😳

15 hours ago, Stewy said:

LOL 🤣

 

 

A pencil sharpener!!! 😁. Sweet! (thought they went the way of the dinosaur). Funny thing, I still have a fully functional electric one in my office 🤪

Yes, I’m old! But mine works when the power goes down or there are no batteries!😁

4 hours ago, Frosty said:

...and your point is???? LOL!  This is the price we pay for OUR toys.

You aren't going to be selling any of that stuff any time soon either. Your neighbors will get a helluva deal on Craftsman and machinist tools, and car care products once you are gone. Oh and a pencil sharpener.

I"m surprised I didn't see a cabinet or wall mounted bottle opener too. 

I have channel locks, 10 pair, multiple sizes, no problem!

Thought this might be of interest. If so I can do some other products.

Ok, I know everybody has there own thoughts, opinions, likes & dislikes. This isn’t about that! This is just for informational knowledge. Stewy got me thinking about how folks approach cleaning a car, inside & or out & related often times to the products they use. Many of us use products that we know nothing about other than we think we like the way they work, feel or smell! Maybe everybody else said this is a great product.

Having spent most of my career in the automotive chemical industry I tended to approach things a little different. Even when I use a new product and I like it I need to know it’s chemical structure, as much as I can. Some products are harder than others because if they use trade secrets than that makes it tuff, but when they use certain chemicals they have to disclose them and in some cases even in a trade secret situation they can’t really hide the odor of some chemistries, if you know what they smell like.

Here’s an example. Treating neoprene rubber weatherstrip trim (EPDM) vs windshield rubber trim or belt line trim, (in most cases neoprene). While they are similar in many ways they are uniquely different. One of those ways are the plasticizer they use. This makes what each one will absorb and react with different. Than the manner in which a treatment chemistry is formulated will also determine it positive or negative impact on the material. 
Black Magic tire wet is probably not something most of you use on your cars or tires! Yet for EPDM weatherstripping, doors trunk and hood it’s the only thing I use! Why, because it uses a particular silicone chemistry, not silicon, that coupled with the dispersant make it ideal to keep that material soft and protected and keeps it from getting those fractures lines you see in that material. But it is a terrible product for tires! 
As a general rule I don’t use it on windshield trim or belt line trim, except maybe once every couple years. In those cases I use a specific brush. I paint it on and just let it sit, it doesn’t really soak in. It just sits there, this is because of the elastomer. After a day I go back and wipe it off, the surface will than have a more subtle feel, not as hard and blacker in appearance.
 
Sun roof, this is a whole different animal. Some of you may have had one leak. That would be because GM in general uses a EPDM material with a different elastomer, to withstand more heat, but without the proper treatment it oxidizes, gets hard and shrinks. Yes, they sell a treatment to maintain this trim, but at best it only extends the life of this trim. Using the Black Magic tire wet maybe once a year will bring this trim to life! But it needs done in a specific way. Open the glass, using a high quality ½ brush, paint on the tire wet, let it set, in about 15 minutes wipe off what’s left. Close the glass, if the glass closes and opens without sticking, the rubber has degraded, shrunk and you will need to do this again in a few weeks and so on till the glass doesn’t want to open. Once the glass doesn’t what to open, whither the first time or later on, you when need to take a second ½ brush and apply talcum powder to the trim. Close the glass it will close and open nicely. After that apply your regular treatment like usual. 
 

20 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Pffhhhttt......as if. 

That's your heir's job pal! 

Normally I would say you’re right! One problem! That heir is my daughter, single daughter! 46 year old single daughter. She likes cars; yes, but if we go back to to top where this started, women and interior cleanliness! Well you see where it’s going to end up! 😳 It will probably end up a fire sale. She would have no idea or patience! The tools, carbide tooling, machine tools and machinist tools alone are worth a pretty chuck a change. She wouldn’t  care!