Last Indian

On 5/7/2020 at 5:16 AM, 64 kiwi boni said:

ok, so without being a scientist whats the best way to manage your engines oil ? by colour? mileage? smell, or all the above. ?🙄

and if you have a dirty engine whats the best way to clean it up without pulling it apart?

i do like your recommendation on engines that sit for long periods having clean oil which reduces  corrosion issues , but having said that whats the best thing to do for a engine that sits and you want to preserve it over a long period, do you start it and run it for 30 mins, or does it need to be taken for a run to load it up ?

How important is oil filter brand choice ???  

 sorry last Indian for all the questions, but i do enjoy learning from people who have " been there done that" 

 

Yes! All of it! Just like a medical Dr. they use everything, if they’re good, to determine what’s wrong with you. It’s like that, but there is a leaning curve.

“and if you have a dirty engine whats the best way to clean it up without pulling it apart?” change the oil & filter, run 200 to 300 miles, drain, & repeat. Do this and increase the flush miles by 100 miles each time by the time you reach 1000 mile drain flush, if not before you should see a marked improvement in oil cleanliness! If not, it’s not going to get better! 
Filters; there’s junk & there’s good stuff, but so many filter manufacturers have cheapened their products. Wix and AC Delco  use to be the best, but even those two had cheapened some of their line with a plastic cage arrangement! The best filters have metal top & bottom caps that are glued. Many will argue that oil is so clean today good filtration isn’t needed, that’s just plan stupid! The filter is more about what comes from the engine itself or what it may ingest through engine breathing! 
I personally have a stock pile of old style AC Delco’s that are the metal caps that are glued.

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Olli olli olli oxen free! Ready or not - here I come! 

 

Tag, you’re it!😁

20 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

in the rockauto news letter today.......

 

 

Diesel Oil, Flat Tappets & Gas Engines

"Zinc" or "Phosphorus" on an oil bottle label usually is referring to the additive zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP helps prevent wear, especially where the camshaft contacts the lifter in flat tappet lifter engines. Newer engines (since the late 1980s) have roller valve lifters and therefore do not benefit as much from ZDDP.

The anti-wear benefits of ZDDP were recognized in the 1950s. The oil of the 1950s had only about 300 parts per million (ppm) ZDDP. The concentration of ZDDP in motor oil gradually increased until it reached a maximum of 1200 to 1400 ppm in the 1980s. (More than 1400 ppm of ZDDP in oil actually starts to increase engine wear.)

Unfortunately, it was discovered that ZDDP makes catalytic converters for gasoline engines less effective by gradually coating the catalyst material with phosphate. To satisfy the latest API Service "SN" oil standard, oil manufacturers only put 600 to 800 ppm ZDDP in their oil.

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil

For over a decade, car enthusiasts with flat tappet lifter engines have been debating whether the 600-800 ppm ZDDP in new "SN" oil is enough protection. Oil experts say that it is enough wear protection once the engine is broken in.

The flat tappet lifter equipped engines in my family fleet were all broken in around a half century ago. I still like to dote on my old cars by giving them a little extra ZDDP as long as it does not require too much hassle or extra money. Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil has been one convenient option. It does not qualify for the "SN" rating because it has too much ZDDP and it is "not recommended for extended use in vehicles with catalytic converters."

Another new, less expensive possibility may be the 10W-30 oil made for some of the most modern diesel engines. Some old car enthusiasts have long recommended oil for diesel engines because it frequently contained more ZDDP. Unfortunately, diesel oil was typically only available in a heavy weight such as 15W-40.

Motorcraft's 10W-30 Oil for Diesels

The label on Motorcraft's 10W-30 oil for diesels says it "contains more than 1000 ppm phosphorus for better wear protection." That is 200 to 400 more ppm at little or no additional cost compared to "SN" 10W-30 oils. The Motorcraft diesel oil label also says, "do not use in gasoline engines equipped with catalysts."

I am testing the Motorcraft 10W-30 for diesels in the 351 under the hood of my 1971 Ford LTD convertible. However, I am not recommending that anyone else use oils labeled "diesel" in any gasoline engines. Please consult your vehicle's owners manual, the appropriate authorities, legal council, etc. before choosing a new type of oil for your specific engine. (For most vehicles, simply look under "Engine" and "Oil" in the RockAuto.com catalog to see manufacturer recommended choices. Oils listed by weight (10W-30, 0W-40, etc.) are found in the "Tools & Universal Parts" tab, under "Engine" and finally "Oil.")

Tom Taylor,
RockAuto.com

 

Where have I heard that before?! Sometimes I guess it just takes an outsider! I could expound, but! 

Welcome! Did someone say pics? We love em!

4 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

sorry Last indian, it was my fault spelling error!! i ment... " but i CAN completely understand your oil colour diagnosis"😜

 i completely agree with Justa about oil in cars you bought being black and within weeks your new oil going the same colour.

 i have a van that has had oil changes under warranty for its first 100000 kms by the the dealership, and i can see build up of black muck at the oil cap, it was being changed every 10000kms as per warranty.

 now that is out of warranty i do the oil changes myself to save me $400 each time !!😡and every change,that oil is just dark brown black very dissapointing for a engine thats now only at 130000kms 

Yup! That’s what happens & there’s no way to do it right except pull it tear it apart & rebuild it 🤭. Or leave it and just keep changing the oil every 500 miles till it stops! And I’ve never done that to a really dirty sludge up motor so I can’t say it would stop! 😳! New oil, because of the high TBN + new detergents etc. will clean varnish & sludge from that type of motor very quickly, but only till the contamination level overwhelms/depletes the TBN & additives. Which happens very quickly! So you need to remove that oil or it will simply rebuild what it removed. When we run an oil test in an engine, a clean engine, then we run a new test in that engine we do at least 2 full flushes. Depending on the oil the test and the engine it can be three and the flush times can be anywhere from an hour to 150 miles!

Welcome! Did anyone mention we love pics!

4 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Now thats one super intense read that Patent is Last india !!!!

but i cant completely understand your oil colour diagnosis 

Can you explain what you would like me to explain to try and make things more clear? I understand there might easily be a learning curve!

19 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Most of the time, I'm runnin off the middle carb.  She runs great.  I rebuilt all 3 carbs a couple years after gettin the car on the road.  Rebuilt again, replacing throttle shaft bushings.  Helped the leak, but not the mid range bog. Accelerator pump is usually an off idle bog and dead give away.  Thought I figured it out with the distributor,  points or condenser and replaced with the Pertronix.  Have tried adjusting the dwell all over the map and back to where it runs best.  Condenser is workin or it's not. Never part time. Yea Gary... Re-adjusted the timing after installing.    OMG.  Young neighbor came over and asked what the chrome gun was for!!!!   That's a timing light son...

Well first off that’s really sad! Funny, but sad! In another 15 maybe 20 years this country is so screwed! I’ve said it before I’ll say it again! When a country looses it ability to make machines of war their demise is eminent! We are just about there & this pandemic has only shown this to be truer than ever before!

Now to the important stuff! Two quick what if’s and thoughts! I would agree with you Steve, I don’t think it over fueled! By your description it sound like, 1. Lack of fuel, like the power circuit isn’t reacting quick enough! Maybe the spring valve is sticking?  Or, 2. possibly a vacuum leak that needs a temperature rise to a certain point to cause enough of a gap to create that leak? I had that on my daughters “91” 3.4 Grand Prix! Intake manifold would create a vacuum leak after running long enough to create a gap at the gasket. What a pain to find! It happened in the winter. She was just out of college about a year and still at home here. So the car sat outside. So depending on the temperature of the day it would happen in varying lengths of time. While you don’t see an idle issue, that would mean it’s not an external leak, it could be an internal vacuum leak in the carb, maybe?

39 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Excellent suggestions. The heat gun is buried somewhere in the storage unit with Lucy. Ditto the plastic spreader, the airbrush, and pinstripe kit....and I was too cheap to go buy another one.

The Goo Gone did a fine job it just took several applications and some rubbing.

Sorry, I forgot to mention it all looks good though! Except whatever that mess was in the air box! Really like the emblems, big difference!

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

Okay so the next two projects were on my 2018 Chevy Colorado. The first involved installing a Gator soft tonneau cover on the back. I got it for Christmas and finally the weather here in Michigan was decent enough in late April to install it. The kid helped me install it - in fact he kind took charge. It was a real easy installation. The most time consuming thing was setting up the tension blocks. They can be set up 4 different ways so you have a little trial and error to get it right to close the cover tight enough.

Here is the 8' long box everything came in. All you need is 1/2" socket, 9/16" socket and a flat blade screwdriver.

The kid doing the hard work - installing the C-clamps that holds the mounting rails to the side of the bed.

The finished product

 

The second project was replacing the Chevy gold Bowtie emblems with retro style Chevy emblems that Chevy used on their Heritage edition 100th anniversary pickups. You can get these emblems over the counter at your Chevy dealership. The front emblem is held in by clips that you release from behind the front grille. Just release the six bolts at the top, scrape up your hand and wrist quite a bit while pushing the pins out and viola, out comes the front emblem and you can push in the new one and bind a band-aid or two and some Bactine.

The tailgate was a lot more fun. By fun, I mean hassle, tedious, time consuming, etc., etc., etc. The back emblem is adhesively mounted. I had heard that dental floss and fishing line would work to cut the adhesive while not scratching the paint. I had lots of free unused dental floss samples but no fishing line, so I used that. It works - barely. It gets behind the emblem and you can start sawing away for a few seconds and then breaks. Get another piece, saw, break, repeat. Fortunately last summer I also invested in a set of plastic interior/emblem removal tools from Summit Racing for $27. Money well spent for this job. Once the floss got an edge started I could use the tools to get in behind the emblem and eventually pry it off without damaging it, the paint or the truck.

With the emblem off, now comes more elbow grease, getting rid of the old stick 'em. Goo Gone, paper towel and you !!! Yeah baby! 

The tape marks all the points of the Bowtie so you can align the new one properly.

Success!

I know it’s a little late, but best luck I’ve always had is a heat gun and a auto body plastic spreader with a very thin edge. This usually just slices most of the adhesive tape and emblem right. Than just some cleanup with lacquer thinner.

3 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

Charged the battery and fired the GTO for the 1st time this year.  Pulled it out N dusted it off.  Yea NO DUSTOFF show this year. Installed the Pertronix ignition system and retimed the engine.  Was hoping this would solve the mid throttle bog...NOPE.  Cleaned the cap/rotor/contacts....still no. Ordered new cap/rotor.  Pulled N cleaned N regapped the plugs.  Better,but still there.  Guess it's back to the carbs.  Funny it fires right off, idles perfect, runs fine on the middle carb until ya jump on it.  BOG  then hold onto something, here we GO!!!!  Have a driveby party tomorrow.  So I get my 1st ride of the year.  Wish we had some dust control down on these darned dirt roads.

JustA thought, but two things come to mind. I know you run tripower, but what about an accelerator pump? Also, did you check the distributor advance? JustA thought!

17 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

so, what happens if you use oil with a high zddp ?🙄

Specifically if you regularly run levels of ZDDP over 1500ppm and you just drive regular, no racing and not hot rodding all the time when driving you run the risk of the following depending on oil consumption rates! 
ZDDP work by heat & pressure, but mainly heat! To explain it in layman terms! Because it’s a boundary layer chemistry it only gets activated when there is enough of each. If there isn’t enough it stays dormant in the bulk oil. When there is enough it builds a film. That film is self limiting, meaning when and if the layer builds thick enough it stops. When that film wears down enough it starts to make it again! So in racing, lots of friction, or hot rodding, the film builds up and shrinks continuously, which in turn depletes the ZDDP additive. When you drive more docile nothing much happens to the ZDDP! If you have enough blow-by or valve train leakage that allows oil to enter the combustion chamber; the results are excessive carbon deposits! Substantial more than without ZDDP, because the main byproduct of ZDDP is carbon!
So if you look at what I’ve been saying, and I might not have been saying it well enough! If you are racing or hot rodding, 1200ppm to a max 1500ppm! If you are driving street driving, more docile, getting on it hear and there, 830ppm to 1000ppm is more than enough. If you run a catalytic converter, 700ppm to 900ppm is enough. But the amount of oil that is consumed in the combustion process because of engine condition may change that!
 

20 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Well it looks like i have been using the wrong oil!!

i was recommended amtex power 50...

https://oilintel.co.nz/product/amtex-power-50/

and i have been using it in both my stock 350 in the camaro and the hp 400 in the green ute also have been using it in the 59 plymouth with its 313 poly engine.

clearly my zddp levels are way too high

 I see we dont get Rotella t4 here but is the rimula the same oil ?

Well looking at the Amtex I’m not that concerned! The ZDDP is at the top end of the top for regular oil, not break-in oil. While it’s 1500ppm the sulphated ash is quite low @ 9630! This has a offsetting effect for corrosion long term. Yes it appears that Rimula is a Euro version of the Rotella. The US & Europe have different chemistry because they both approach emissions differently.

11 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

 

 

that is my exact question Last indian! 🙄

when it comes to all the factors involved, as much as it is about the mix of additives etc in the raw oil, i would have to consider the engine its going into !

i have my old school engines, 313 poly, 389 pontiac, 400 and 350 chev, 360 magnum,  that would ,most likely take one certain oil, but i also have brand new engines ( like my supercharged hemi) that need very specific oil, or is this just a myth ?

And what about cars like mine that sit for months without being started or used? how does that impact on the oil? do i need to change it more often because its been sitting? 

Like my camaro is lucky to see 100 miles a year, some years none!, do i use a oil that is good for engines that get little use ???🙄

and here is a question for you, without giving away brand names... what tbn, zddp, tan numbers should i look for in a oil for say my 398 in the 64 ?

All good questions Kiwi! You are correct that different engines have different needs! So no it’s no myth! From both a base stock oil as well as additives. Still you can narrow the field of oils you need to a degree partly because oils, like lots of things tend to be backward compatible. Such as a GF6 oil is compatible for an engine that took a GF4 oil, but certain differences might rule out a particular oil, such as the unavailability of a viscosity grade! 
Specifically you would need to look for a relative viscosity grade for an engine within a range. Example, if you have a motor that needs and uses a 20W50 Oil because of bearing tolerances, in turn it also runs no catalytic, plus you run it hard or race it! Than your not going to look for a Dexos oil because of their viscosity grades! You are additionally going to want a good anti-wear additive like ZDDP. You’ll want the range to fall somewhere between mid 700ppm which is a little low & 1200ppm, which is on the high side. This is all a lot of work so instead this is why I said you look for a fully formulated diesel oil like Chevron’s Delo 400 or Shell’s Rotella T4. Both have ample amounts of additives, including ZDDP.
Oil sitting in an engine for an extended period of time is ok! Unless the oil is nearing oil change time, than I would always change it before putting it up! Also I would change it if you have fuel dilution or a coolant leak! Even when these two items aren’t bad enough to be a detriment when driving regularly, they create oxidation and acid, so when left sitting for extended periods they tend to etch metal, which is corrosion. 
Good numbers! TBN, well back in the day you use to be able to get a 13 or 14 TBN oil, today good luck! The highest I’ve seen is Delo Multigrade or  Rotella T4 @ 10.1! Need I say more! That said in my opinion the Delo has to much zinc, @ 1500 & sulfated ash @ 14000! Where the Rotella has 1200ppm of zinc and 10000 sulfated ash, much more reasonable. TAN, that is a measurement taken as the oil is degrading and basically can only be made by drawing a sample and sending it to a lab for analysis, but! Good news! That is to be the next segment I start! How to analyze our oil at home by color! 
 

Welcome! Good luck with your search! We love pictures!

Finally got the other side made! Always a pain trying to make & match a left and right side freehand!

 

still got to sand & polish!

This exhaust is stock except for 3” down pipe & a ZZP SS front manifold log.

While driving

Then idle

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Hey, Grand Funk is from my home town!       

....and your point is? 

Crank it up and rip the knob off !

 

I know that! We talked about it before. One of my all time favorite bands! Along with Triumph, these two three man bands made more music withe three guys than most with five! Believe me! I’ve seen the live more then once,. One time at Geneva on the Lake in a nightclub! I think that was when I lost the second 25% of my hearing! 
I met Knight, Farner & Brewer in “67”, talked to them for about an hour, was pretty cool for a 16 year old!

What does it take to extend an oil drain? We once had a chemist at the company that was one of those guys that just walked to a different beat! He drove a ratty old car, never really did anything to it. This timeframe was late “70s” early “80s”! Never changed the oil, never! Every so often he’d pull a quart of oil out with a vampire pump and add a fresh quart! He ended up with around 140,000 miles on the motor. That was a lot of miles for a car back then, especially no oil or filter change! By comparison I had a 1967 Impala SS, change the oil every 3000 miles religiously, sold the car in 1975 with a 130,000 on it and that was nearly unheard of then! So you see the chemist was basically replenishing the additives on a regular basis. Now I don’t subscribe to that type of engine treatment, but the point is renewing additives does effectively extend drain intervals. Because additives are what give that life blood fluid its ability to keep the engine humming along.

THE NEED FOR ANTIOXIDANT ADDITIVES
When exposed to heat, oxygen and metal contamination, lubricants undergo oxidation. Base oils can perform many lubrication functions, but they can’t protect against the detrimental effects of oil oxidation.
Oxidation creates polymers, oil-insoluble high-molecular-weight molecules that increase the viscosity of the lubricant, accelerate wear and eventually leads to varnish. The hard “baked on” polymeric coating of varnish also accelerates wear and is a long-term detriment.
Oxidation also creates sludge, a soft oil-insoluble material made of combustion byproducts that suspend in oil. If it remains too long, sludge can plug oil lines and filters leading to oil starvation in the machinery and adhere to metal surfaces, accelerating wear. Along with other hard accumulations of sludge and varnish typically on pistons and valves in engines, deposits due to oxidation can cause valve and ring sticking, eventually leading to catastrophic increase in wear. There is good news however. Even though lubricant degradation processes are complex, the solution is straight forward. Antioxidant additives minimize oxidation and deposit formation. Detergents and dispersants also play a role in mitigating the effects of sludge and deposits.

TBN gives an indication of the amount of base available in the oil to neutralize organic and inorganic acids that accumulate in the crankcase of engines during their operation. TBN or the quantity of base is expressed in milligrams of potassium hydroxide per gram that is required to titrate a sample, dissolved in a specific solvent to a specified endpoint. The importance of TBN has multiple impact on an engine! But not all TBN is created equally! Having a good TBN number means very little in the absence of a TAN number, why? Because they are not counter corresponding numbers, meaning as one goes up they other comes down! This is not true of all TBN! TBN has many influences, detergents, dispersants, etc!

There are two types of additives: bulk oil additives and surface additives. Bulk additives affect the rheological, interfacial and chemical properties of the lubricant, and surface additives are active at metal surfaces.

So how do we, the guy in the backyard, figure this all out as best we can without a lab at our disposal?! 
 

15 minutes ago, Frosty said:

 

 

 

 

I think you been listening to Grand Funk’s paranoid! Why to much!