Last Indian

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

Hey Justa, glad to hear from ya bro. In the pic of the timing chain, I sent that because I was thinking the little circle thing in the middle was the eccentric. If it’s not then y’all let me know and tell me where it is and I’ll send pics. I was thinking that was it. Yes I put everything back exactly like that pic showed. Looking at the new pump with the spring. On the inside of the lever there is a small post where the spring goes over it. A spring keeper if you will. On the old pump there is no “keeper” and there is no evidence that there ever was one or that one had broken off. I honesty believe that the spring was not on it when I installed it. At least that’s my hopes. That car starts and runs good now, I think. Engine still seems to vibrate more then I would think it should but I don’t know. I did do the vacuum tests today that Indian & Bear suggested. Running hooked up, Running everything blocked off, didn’t matter. Still showing 7hg of vacuum at 950RPM. I adjust the carb, reset timing and that’s the best I could get. Also, at 950RPM at idle and put into gear she drops to 500RPMs. I did buy a new hand held vacuum gauge and it’s all over the place. The gauge in the car is steady. But she does start and run on her own again lol, that’s something. The videos are of both gauges with the car running. JustA thought, could all of this be carb related? 

Wrongway, do me a favor take some good pictures of the carb & manifold where the carb bolts to it, also showing the vacuum connections. Also check your firing order! And bring #1 cylinder up on tdc manually, take off the distributor cap and see where the rotor is pointing! If it’s not pointing directly at #1 pin in the cap, you’re off a tooth, because somethings off! That motor is idling way to rough!

On 6/20/2020 at 3:30 PM, Wrongway said:

Ok so the only real differences that I see is that the old pump looks like the spring is missing. Regardless, I hooked up the new pump, primed the carb and she started and ran on her own. Awesome!!! No air bubbles either. When I shut her off you can still see the fuel in the line drop back down 6”-8”. Next question is I told u that I ran an aluminum fuel line under the intake, above the valley pan. Should I be concerned about heat or vapor lock? Any more suggestions or concerns about the fuel system?

As long as it starts right up I guess I wouldn’t worry, but a good system should hold pressure between the pump and the carburetor! When the needle valve shuts off the in coming gas flow the pressure should stay between the carb and pump! FYI! What Bear says about the vac is good advice. For me though I think I’d just start with the ether since it sounds like you’re not really sure where the leak is! Start around the carb, than move to the manifold, but first check all your hoses and hose connections.

17 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

i went with the leds thanks to my auto electrician recommending them as to being way better than hids, no wiring issues and less load ment no requirement to add relays at all.

 total load is now 5.4 amps with all 4 lamps on. 

 below is the sealed beams on high and below the leds on high.

To be noted is what Last indian said, the cibies have a great line and i can see in the dark again!!!!

sealed beams

leds

Kiwi I’m so glad things came together for you. Different improvement in the illumination and I’m sure it’s more dramatic in person! FYI, I believe the HIDs and the LEDs consume about the same power, but as a bulb the HIDs will burn you were as the LEDs won’t! I think the LEDs ballast get hotter than the HIDs though. I’ve thought of trying the LEDs in the Indian, but I don’t think there is enough room behind the housings, as the LEDs need the ballast attached to them!

looks really good mate! 

35 minutes ago, Wrongway said:

I'll look tomorrow when I get the new pump Frosty and post pics of both units. Y'all have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time and helping me. Thank you again. I truly had no idea where to go. I was actually considering going with fuel injection in hopes of solving this issue. The conversation of LS swap had even crept into the garage one night. I know she's not fixed yet, but again, thank you all so much.

Wrongway, when you pull the pump tomorrow, see if you can take a flashlight & mirror and look in the opening where the pump goes up towards the cam. See if you can see the cam eccentric and which end is the open end, I.E. towards the front or back!

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

While I understand parts interchangeability and part differentiation, this one has me baffled. Let's assume that the correct fuel pump solves Wrongway's problem. I certainly hope so.

What confuses me is the pump arm built differently between a 428 and 400? Because the block geometry should not change. The external Pontiac blocks dimensions didn't change much from 1960 to 1981. So the fuel pump location to the camshaft eccentric location should not have changed between these two casting. Bore and stroke would have changed for sure. Different heads and intakes sure. But not the general casting dimensions like the fuel pump to ececenric.

The only other scenario that makes sense to me is if a different fuel pump is needed for a tri-power versus a 2-bbl or 4-bbl, but that is about it. 

Frosty I won’t even begin to act like I know! I think you know I have done and still do a lot with engines, but most of that as I said was always with Chevys & Buick! It’s been a long time since it was a actual Pontiac motor! So I do forget! Don’t say a word 🖐️ about old! Still a pump is a pump and fuel is fuel, duh! Watching and listening to wrong way, something just wasn’t right with what was happening or how it was not pumping! You may or quite possibly will be right! Not being there I can only step through it one thing at a time! Is it possible that the eccentric is in wrong? Not located in the correct spot? You know shifted over to one side some how?

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

I don't know why this didn't post earlier, this is my 3rd try. So I got the flared fitting and installed it today. No change. The 1st video was starting it dry and my finger is pointing at where the fuel hose is. In the 2nd video I filled up the fuel bowls and let it run until the carb ran dry. I know I'm going to sound like an idiot but I cant find the rod y'all keep talking about. I honestly don't remember there being one in this motor when I tore down or reassembled it. I stuck my finger in the hole in the block where the pump bolts on and couldn't feel anything. But like I said the engine was running and I did drive it a couple of weeks ago.

You’re not an idiot buddy! I haven’t worked on a Pontiac motor in a long time! I’m use to Chevy & Buick's! It appears that neither the 428 or the 400 use a rod, but there is a difference in the fuel pumps, I’m particularly the lever! NAPA shows a NNP B0167P for a 428 where the 400 uses a NNP B0208P unit. I would believe this is your problem! You need to get the right pump. The lever of the one you have is being push just slightly, but not enough to actually pump fuel!

2 hours ago, Old Coyote said:

I have  a 1954 Laurentian, which I understand is the Canadian equivalent of a Catalina. It's a long sad story but basically the rear window and a lot of the door glass has been broken. I have a line on glass from a 53 Chevy 210. Some research indicates it would fit. Anyone know for sure? 

I do believe that is correct as long as you are talking hard top to hard top or sedan to sedan!

6 minutes ago, Wrongway said:

The blocked off line is then return line. I unblocked it and pumped it again after I sent that video. While it’s pumping out of the clear hose I get a small stream of fuel out of it also. Ok, I’ll get the flare fitting and different pump. Could that fitting have been pulling air in and causing the problems?

That’s the pressure side of the pump! So it could cause the leak down, but I would expect it to also leak fuel when it pumped fuel. So it’s a little iffy. It might leak air and not fuel, but without being there I can’t say.

2 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Ok I’m getting ready to put the pump in the vice but I just found this. To me I can’t see how the line would seal to the fittings flare. I would think it could/would let air in the line. What do you think?

No! You need a flair fitting & that’s not a flair fitting. What happens if you leave the other line you have block open? Go to NAPA see if they can get you the correct pump. Not all parts are interchangeable, so there may be enough of a difference between the two pumps that’s causing the problem.

21 minutes ago, Wrongway said:

Ok, so my parts guy is sitting here with me. He hangs out here sometimes and tinkers on stuff with me. He just told me that when he ordered THIS fuel pump, (I warrantied out the old one last week) that he could not find one for my engine. My 428 cam out of a 68’ Grand Prix, so he ordered one for a 68’GTO. He thinks it was for a 400. He says the part numbers were the same so he figured that it should work. He also said he ordered the one with no return line. The one he gave me was one with a return line. Not what was on the box. Could that be the problem??

I broke it in per comps instructions. But since there’s only 50- 100 miles on it I’m not sure you could really say it’s broke in. Lol. Yes I used Comp lube to break it in also

The return could be an issue not sure how the valuing is setup internally. So I think possibly you could try this to see if it makes a change. Open the return outlet, fit it with a fitting and run it to a can. 
If you ran the cam 15-20 minutes at 2000 rpm it’s broke in!

2 minutes ago, Wrongway said:

Ok so yeah you’ve got it right bro. I’m not sure about it being the cam or rod because it was running up until a couple of weeks ago. So if it is the rod or the eccentric would an electric fuel pump And block off plate solve the fuel issues? 

Short answer, yes! Long answer it would depend on what if anything was damaged! Pull the pump & rod! Inspect the rod for damage/wear/galling. Did you break in the cam correctly, use the right break in lube, just covering bases here! But somethings changed by what you’re indicating!

21 minutes ago, Wrongway said:

Ok, so I DO have fuel squirting when I gravity feed and got the car running that way. I hooked up to pump with hose in the gas can. I get a trickle of fuel then nothing. I know this is gonna sound crazy but, when I tried to siphon fuel from the carb end of the hose through the pump and into the can I’m still getting bubbles in the line. I did siphon fuel up to the carb by mouth after filling carb, connected the hose to carb and started. It ran till the carb went dry. Never pulled fuel into the filter. 

Let me make sure I understand what you said! Carb full of fuel, the engine started and ran till the carb ran out of fuel, right? Then with the fuel pump no real pumping of fuel, right?

if that is correct than I have to go back to what I said before! Either the push rod from the cam to the fuel pump lever is the wrong one and to short, the fuel pump, doubtful, but needs checked is the wrong one so the lever isn’t the right length or the eccentric on the cam is bad or the cam is somehow not right! What I see and by what I think you are saying about what’s happening is this. The pump never real gets fuel filled in it! Which means the majority of the space is air and since it can’t pull fuel into the fluid side of the diaphragm air from the outlet side re-enters that space, thus the air bubbles. 
Next two things to do. Take the pump off take out the push rod and measure it, then you need to find out what the correct measurement is for the right rod for your motor! Also if you have a vise hold the pump in the vise. Connect a hose to the inlet side of the pump the other end of the hose put in the gas can or any liquid for the matter. On the outlet side take a hose run it to a bucket can whatever! Now push the fuel pump lever by hand repeatedly see if it will pump the fluid through the pump! If so, the problem is definitely the pump, the push rod or the cam!

11 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Ok so here's the set up I tried. IF I did this right. lol, it still would not start. I did siphon gas out the line all the way to the carb. Disconnected the inlet and return line from the pump. Disconnected the line from the pump to the carb at the carb and connected the hose from carb to can. It did not start, used either but no fuel came out. Stroking the throttle without trying to start the engine and I cant see any fuel squirting into the carb. 

Ok then! We need to continue and find a resolution to this issue before moving on! 
leaving the pump out of the equation, let’s test the carb. Get a small syringe or very small funnel and fill the carb through the air horn vent tube, see pic! When the bowl is full some fuel will come out of the tube, that’s ok! Then pull the accelerator back as Kiwi suggested and see if the accelerator pump squirts fuel. If it does try to start the car as normal. If it runs, let run till it dies. Fill it again and repeat.
Also I see as I’m writing this JustA has answered, so try what he says as well! That well prove whether or not the fuel pump works! 

If the pump works and the carb takes fuel through the air horn and fires! Your problem is with the carb, most likely the float! If it won’t fire it is still most likely the carb, but the jets are blocked! Both may be due to today’s fuel! Alcohol in fuel wreaks havoc with fuel systems and carbs if you don’t use additives to get rid of the alcohol! Sorry it’s just a fact of life today. 
FYI if there’s a question as to the vent tube it’s the small tube that is slant cut at the top portion of the carb air horn.

8 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Ok so with the fuel line in the gas can nothing changed. Using starting fluid I was only able to get fuel up to about where the arrow is and it still had random big (1 1/2" - 2") air bubbles. 

As far as the vac goes Indian, this has been an issue since I rebuilt the engine last year. I've tried adjusting the carb and changing the timing. The rings are new and I've got less then 100, probable closer to 50 miles on her. The vac has been this way from the beginning. Not sure if this matters or not, but I'm using the factory vac gauge for these reading's.

Ok, this might sound nuts, but remember I’m not there, so I can only hypothesize! I think it is one of two things! Either there is something wrong with the cam or the push rod that runs from the cam to the pump lever. 

So we need to eliminate the pump for this test. Disconnect all the connections from the pump, no inlet no outlet, or just take it off and run a block off plate. Now please be carful with this net part! Take your fuel can and place it higher than the carb. Take the Tygon tubing and weight it in some way so the hose goes to the bottom of the gas can! Siphon the gas down the hose and connect it to the carb. This will gravity feed the carb. See if this resolves the engine starting and running issue. If it does, than the problem is with the pump, the push rod for the pump or the cam! Let’s hope it’s not the cam!

Yeah! What JustA said! Make sure you take some video of it to share!

Looking very sharp! Before the snow flies ? Maybe?🤞

22 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Sorry for the delay in responding. Took my son camping this weekend. Thanks Indian, I will check the fuel line tomorrow with the can. How do I check the vac pressure relief valve? As far as cam goes, here's the cam card. I wouldn't think that it would be big enough to drop the vac.

Thank you agian

For a 428, no that is not a big cam. Vac should be, with good rings, valves etc. a 19” to 21” motor. So after the fuel is figured out we’ll tackle the vacuum issue! 
In the mean time, what, if anything was the last thing you did to the motor?

OK! You guys are really starting to aggravate me with the old jokes! And iffff I’m sorry what were we taking about? Oh, oh yeah submarines, so what kind of sandwich was it!

On 6/11/2020 at 12:20 PM, Wrongway said:

Hey guys, so I'm having a couple of issues. Or it may be 1 I'm really not sure. The 428 was running good but the vacuum was lower than what I thought it should be 7-8 in park and 4-5 in drive. I do have a small cam but I wouldn't think it should effect it that much. So I tried retuning the carb (edelbrock 1411 750cfm) to get more vacuum. was able to get as high as 8 in park, 5 in drive. Also I had issues with the motor holding prime. When its was running it was fine. When you shut it off you can see the fuel slowly creeping back down the fuel line and big air bubbles coming up it. Oh I put on a clear fuel line for now so I could as what was going on. No wet spots on the driveway either. So I figured that was a problem with the pump. 2 Days ago I replaced the pump, still doing the same thing. Yesterday I went out to give it another try. I use starting fluid to get the engine turning enough to pull fuel up and got it to the carb but she wouldn't run on her own. As soon as you take your foot of the pedal she dies. I forgot to mention, when she was running I had to set the RPM's between 1100- 1200 in park and in gear they would drop to 450- 550 RPM's. If I set it as say 800RPM's in park she would try to die when shifting to drive or reverse. The carb was rebuilt last year and everything on the car has been rebuilt or is new. Any thoughts?

Thank you

Well unless you have a big overlap cam with high lift, the vac in idle should be at least 18, a good motor without that big cam and good ring 20 to 21! So let’s start with what might be first! The fuel! I would not be surprised that you do have a leak/brake/crack in the line somewhere between the tank and the fuel pump! So, I know this is a pain, but you need to rule things out one by one! Take the line off at the pump. Take a short length of line 6”, with a fitting that connects to the pump! Take some Tygon hose long enough to go in to a gas can, that’s obviously full of gas! See if you still have the problem. If not you need to replace the fuel line from the pump to the tank. Also while you’re at it check the gas cap and make sure that vac pressure relief valve works. 
 

Let me know what happens with that and we’ll go from there!

13 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

last Indian, my plan is to grab those cibies off trademe, if i win the bid !🙄

 and then score some hid kits, but what i may do is buy those off my trusted local auto electrician, so if they shit them selves i can go back to him 😜

and i will post here how the whole set up goes... and i bet your going to be impressed with the out come 

I have no doubt mate! Can’t wait to see the finish project & what you think of them!

On 6/10/2020 at 8:50 AM, Frosty said:

I've been trying to find a good T3 high and low beam replacement set without going to projectors for Lucy. I'm into a stock look but with much better visibility. I would love to find a relatively inexpensive but high quality HID or halogen bulb/set.

With the interior out of Lucy, I plan to install LEDs on the cluster and perhaps on many of the other exterior bulbs as well. So why not upgrade the headlights while I am at it?

Last Indian - any recommendations?

Frosty & Kiwi, there is also Octane lighting they also make and sell non sealed beam headlights. They sell a set of 5 3/4 round that look a little bit like the Cibie lights, but much much cheaper. They take a H4 bulb as well, so you could than add the HID lights to these housings. This would make them more efficient than a stock headlamp.

https://www.octanelighting.com/

8 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

this one is really hard to understand, in the context of head lights 

 i googled it but it was not clear about the bending of light in respect to automotive lighting 

Kiwi, I think it’s great that you ask the question! Most folks view a light as a light and nothing more, but as I said, they are so much more! Even a simple table lamp with a shade is quite involved when you get right down to it! The height determines in what range it will eminent from, the wattage is candle power, then the coating of the glass regulates to some degree color and opacity and the shade? Well what the material is, it’s design, whether pleated, straight etc. determines dispersing of the light!

A parabola is a curve where any point is at an equal distance from: a fixed point (the focus ), and. a fixed straight line

A searchlight (or spotlight) is an apparatus that combines an extremely bright source (traditionally a carbon arc lamp) with a mirrored parabolic reflector to project a powerful beam of light of approximately parallel rays in a particular direction, usually constructed so that it can be swiveled about.

I’m sure you’ve seen this type of light before maybe at a grand opening or the like, but they actually date back as far as the 1880s. Yes that’s 18 not 19! 

Before I forget, the above not only relates to the purpose of the parabolic, but also the advent of the HID light because it is a carbon arc light! While it is somewhat different it is still a carbon arc light! If you have flood lights in your house they are a parabolic and the shape of the parabolic ( read that as angle ) determines whether it’s a flood or a spot light. The wider the angle the wider the light beam the narrower the angle the narrow the beam. Also the reflected light comes off of the opposite side of the parabolic, but don’t confuse the refraction I mentioned with the parabolic itself, that comes when it passes through the lens. So like in the “50”s when they put cutoff plates on car headlights that’s why they were on the top! In this way they would block the light beam coming off the bottom side of the parabolic which actually goes up! Like wise this is way the block off plate in a projector headlight is on the bottom! Because it’s magnified through a one sided convex lens the image aka, light is upside down
 

10 hours ago, Frosty said:

I've been trying to find a good T3 high and low beam replacement set without going to projectors for Lucy. I'm into a stock look but with much better visibility. I would love to find a relatively inexpensive but high quality HID or halogen bulb/set.

With the interior out of Lucy, I plan to install LEDs on the cluster and perhaps on many of the other exterior bulbs as well. So why not upgrade the headlights while I am at it?

Last Indian - any recommendations?

’ll do my best to help. I would like to preface this with my input to how complexed lighting is, which in many ways is why it’s such a shambles today for car head lights!

Light in of itself is a science, a very complexed science! Light is the only reason we can see! Our eyes are one of the most remarkable gifts we have! Nothing, absolutely nothing can duplicate them! No matter how close we get with sensors, they can’t duplicate our eyes and to get even remotely close it takes multiple sensors that do different functions! The human eye can at one glance discern distance, intricate color, shading, texture, soft, sharp, vapors and so much more! All of this is because of light! Next to locks lighting fixtures are the oldest know inventions along with different fuel to obtain brighter illumination!

By the mid 20th century we had achieved fairly good road illumination given the limitations of incandescent bulbs & their Kalvin color light band. The parabolic design had and has proven to be the most optimal reflector for light refraction and in a round design! So all we needed was a better light source, one that could mimic daylight! But no! New, dare I say less capable engineers that couldn’t see to the end of their noses with 5500 degrees of Kalvin found it was more fitting to carve up every headlight fixture into some abortion that didn’t come close to resembling the very oldest of light fixtures. 

The point here is that headlights starting in the late “70”s kept getting increasingly worse because they kept chopping the parabolic up, reducing its size, making it only a piece of a round parabolic and magnifying it with non optical grade glass! Which meant light was lost as well as distorted! The Cibie takes all the light that comes from the parabolic and concentrates it in a smaller focal window! 

So now for you guys, Frosty, Kiwi and any others. Since you have old 7” or 5 ¾ headlights that are true parabolic housings you can have the best of both worlds! The Cibie’s of today may not be what they were when Cibie owned them, but they would still be heads above anything else out there. There is a guy named Danel Stern, see the attached link. https://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/products.html 

It appears he can get you the Cibie lights. I would than recommend getting 5500 to 6000 Kalvin color hid lights! These will consume less power and run cooler then standard H4 bulbs. Since your cars don’t run computers there are no issues for you to get around so you don’t need cad/cam canceling adaptors or the like. If you talk to a good HID company like Retrofit Source you should be able to tell them what you’re doing and get what you want. When you’re done you should have a very clean installation and a setup that looks stock!