Last Indian

8 minutes ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

I have a issue and I hope you guys can give me some ideas on how to sort this mess !!

i removed the rocker covers to find 57 years worth of crud !! 

So I have got in there with a screw driver and vacuum cleaner and very carefully moved all the sludge and flakes I can 

who can I clean this up better but without stuffing the motor ?

i was thinking of using petrol to carefully wash and us a rag to obsorb the wash up ... remembering 

I have had the sump off and all down there is nice and clean 

That’s what we call dried sludge/mayonnaise! Yeah that’s ugly! This will take some, unfortunately, tedious work! Obviously clean the valve covers off the car, because you can clean those beautiful! Do this with either stoddard solvent or kerosene! The heads will be much harder, unless you want to pull them?! If you pull them you would be able to complete disassemble them! Clean them really well, lap the valves, replace valve seals and clean passages you can’t get to without removal! Again you would use stoddard or kerosene! 
You are indicating that the oil pan is off, right? So if you don’t want to take off the heads I would suggest the following. Plug all the drain down holes as best you can. Again take stoddard or kerosene and a brush and clean everything you can, valve springs, rockers, inside head area, etc! This will get messy so protect all the surrounding area because you are going to create splatter! As you clean it, yes you will have to sop up the liquid mess! Once you get the inside area of the head somewhat clean; stop! Now wipe all you can dry, especially the gasket sealing surface! Put the motor back together when you are ready! When you are ready to fire the motor use a 10w30 or 40. Run the motor for about an hour after it gets warmed up! Shut it down drain the sump as soon as you can! Change the filter once it’s cool enough to do so! Refill with new oil! Run this oil about 50 miles, than drain the oil again while it’s hot! Change the filter refill with new oil! Now I would use 10w40 or 20w40 oil! From this point on I would change the oil every 1000 miles! When you get 5000 or so miles on the motor since this time frame pull a valve cover and see how the head condition has changed! So take a before picture so you have something to compare the later timeframe to!
 

On 2/5/2021 at 10:13 AM, PumbaaToots said:

Hey everyone, first post here. So I found this Pontiac years ago in a parts yard and thought it was so cool I had to take a picture. From what research I have done, I'm thinking it is a '69 Parisienne, but I'm not 100% positive on it. Anyone have an opinion?  Unfortunately I only have the one picture. 

20191111_152626.heic 2.47 MB · 6 downloads

Yea! JustA saw this! If you’re speaking of the blue car in the picture? That’s not a Pontiac! That a Chrysler! Pontiac never built anything that had a rear quarter rear door configuration that had that kind of sharp body line turn down! Only Lincoln, Ford & Chrysler. And of the three I only remember Chrysler having an individual stand alone turn signal side marker that high up in the front fender!

3 hours ago, TWO LANE BLACK TOP said:

Back in the day..When these cars were new...There were alot of warranty claims for the oil leaking at the front and rear (mostly at the rear) of the intake manifolds...It is a very common problem...With these engines to the point that it was just a matter time before they all started leaking..They were only used for five years 92..96 Corvette...93..97 for the F bodies..Although they were used in various full size Buicks...Oldsmobiles..Chevies and certain Cadillacs during that time period.. But without the Aluminum cylinder heads...GM put out A TSB..That said to use the copper sealant  (shown in Frosty's pic) that instead of what had been originally used at the factory.. GM never really worked out the issue or made any design changes throughout the production run to address the issue...I think their reasoning for that was....They were coming out with LS series engines anyway and focused their attention on that..Instead of the soon to be obsolete Gen2 lt1/LT4 engines...personally I think the main design issue is the difference of the expansion rates of the Cast iron block and the Aluminum Intake manifold... GM Rather than machining a groove across the top of the the sealing surfaces of the block with a corresponding groove on the sealing surface on the bottom of the intake manifold...To put a flat O ring type gasket between the two...Just blew it off and moved on to other things....There is really no internal pressure in the valley under the intake..Unless the PVC system is clogged as Frosty pointed out...I will definitely look at that.... and address any issue that May be present...If I ever pull my engine or ever redo another one I will use a ball type end mill... And cut a shallow groove in both the intake and the block and take some of the material and instead of gluing it together at ends to form an O ring..I will just take a piece and lay it flat in the groove and sandwich it between the manifold and the block along with a coating of RTV...(I think that would be  permanent fix..??) But in the meantime I will remove the intake and  just use RTV.. If there is any commercially available RTV that will better cope with the different expansion rates between the dissimilar metals I Will definitely give it try...

Thanks....

That’s a good point about the expansion rate! Quite often those are overlooked issues by manufacturers! I have seen that many times in my working career. 
So that prompted me to look at the MSDS sheets! Interesting enough the difference between the copper, black, red, blue & gray is enough to possibly make a difference in sealing! 

The red is the softest shore A 20, copper 26, black 30, blue 30 & gray 30-40! The elongation was close to the same for all except the gray, it was much lower! The shear strength was the lowest on the copper and the highest on the gray! 
So what does that mean? I’m not 100% sure because I don’t know the failure mechanism for sure! But if thermal expansion is part of the equation, which in turn creates the possibility of vibration? Than the red or the gray jump to the top of my list! Why? Well a softer durometer material with a ok elongation number might survive those demands! Still a harder durometer with a better shear strength might be tough enough to withstand both demands. 
But if it were me I would put my money on the red RTV!

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

I don't disagree with you Last Indian. My first inclination would be to use a high RTV without the copper too. However, if GM spec'd an RTV with copper originally for these engines, I'm sure they had a reason. However, that reason alludes me.

Frosty, I understand that, and this is just my opinion, but I don’t believe GM says to use the copper! But if they do, I can only say they also say to use Dex-cool! And that crap is the worst s"?!t on the market! You might as well pour acid in your engine! While I never have built any of the LT1’s I have had a lot of interaction with the guys who were building them for our engine lab! They always used the red RTV! These engines ran hundreds of hours under some of the severest conditions! 
The one thing I remember they would tell me they always did was to put a blob of rtv in each corner at the cylinder head! Then run a bead on the rail! Also it was imperative that both the manifold & rail of the block be very very clean! I.E. all RTV removed, cleaned with brown scotchbrite & then wiped with an aggressive solvent like a carb cleaner!

below the first one is using the red RTV! The bottom pic is using a white, which I’m not familiar with, but it’s off of a Hot Rod build article! 

17 hours ago, Frosty said:

Two Lane, another RTV consideration would be to use Permatex Ultra Copper High Temp Silicone RTV. If for some reason, copper is needed as a barrier between the two dissimilar metals of the iron block and aluminum intake, this is another alternative.

I've also heard of guys having sludge build up in the PCV system when they develop this leak on the LT1/LT4 engine. So if you remove the manifold, take the time to check out the entire PVC system for build up. If the PCV system has failed, you might have too much internal pressure blowing out the place of least resistance, the silicone seal.

I believe this is the product Two Lane is using! And if you look at the picture you posted it is clearly listed as exhaust and 700 degrees F! Thus why I’m saying, I don’t really believe that is the right product for the application! That type of sealant usually does not have the proper composition for flexibility, ductility, shear strength or adhesion! It is usually has a composition more so for expansion, contraction. And while I know they say it’s oil resistant, I believe that is more from a exhaust oil perspective, not an engine oil bathing perspective! Otherwise why would you make any of the other products? You would JustA need one! Right?

1 hour ago, TWO LANE BLACK TOP said:

Last indian..

Thanks for the response...

The Gen2 LT 1 engine block and intake manifold are of a different design from the old school small blocks and instead of having the traditional cork/neoprene gaskets across the front/rear of the block...Between the cylinder heads...The Gen2  block and the bottom of the intake manifold are machined flat and fit tightly together with zero clearance between them and they are sealed with a copper type Rtv sealant...The only gaskets are the ones that seal the cylinder head intake ports and the manifold...Unlike the traditional small block No water flows thru the intake manifold..Instead there is a pipe that connects the Cylinder heads together for the coolant flow on the rear of the engine...(The engine has a reverse flow cooling system) with the water pump driven off the camshaft...

So I guess what I'm asking is..Is there maybe some kind of a nuclear space age super sealant RTV that will last for millions of heat cycles...and cope with the different expansion/contraction rates of the cast iron block and the Aluminum intake manifold....(Which is the point where the reoccuring leaks are happening)   That is commercially available...?? 

I must admit I have not built any of the Gen2 LT1 motors! That said, and I know it’s easy for me to say since I would have no vested interest, but I would still try one of the following two methods!

First of all the copper rtv to me makes no sense! This is typically used for high temps like exhaust manifolds, cats, etc! I don’t know why they would want you to use that?

Ok, so you clearly have to make the call here because you have the most experience with doing the work and seeing the failure! First, the easiest way is to use Permatex Ultra synthetic it comes in a purple tube! It is for oil applications! The other is their Ultra black, also for oil applications! Both have temperature ratings of -65 to 500F. Where as the copper is rated for 700F, but if your intake sees 700F you have other problems to worry about! 
Part of the failure may be due to the 700F rating! To get to that temperature material must be incorporated into the chemical composition that to some degree actually compromise the integrity of the structure with respect to oil exposer!
If you are going to pull and clean the manifold & the area of the block & heads that needs resealed, I would suggest this! Clean everything, reinstall the intake to head gaskets? Place the intake in place with no rtv, tighten the bolts just enough to make snug contact, no torque! Take feeler gages and measure the gap at manifold and block sealing surface areas! If it is more than .010 get back to me and let me know! If that is the case you might try something else I have in mind!

2 hours ago, TWO LANE BLACK TOP said:

My 1997 LT1 Firebird has developed an oil leak again...From the rear of the intake manifold..I've fixed it correctly with great attention to detail twice already ...Once in 2005 or 06...Then again in 2014..Now it has started seeping again...This is common problem with these engines...So I'm going to pull the intake (pain in the ass) again... Was wanting to know If anyone out there has come up with a permanent fix for this issue...?? Or am I just destined to have to redo it every few years...??

Any input or suggestions would be appreciated....

Thanks..TLBT

Two Lane, I don’t know what your approach has been to try and resolve this, but my thought would be this! Also I don’t know what end gaskets you are using,I.E. cork, neoprene or just rtv! You might try the following. I would use cork end gaskets with the red rtv! Put a thin layer of the red rtv on the block, than while still wet place the cork gasket into the rtv, but don’t press it in to the rtv hard, and let it cure over night! Next day put another thin layer on the top of the cork gasket! Set the intake manifold in place while wet, install the bolts to align the manifold properly, but don’t bolt it down, just tighten them till they engage the manifold surface! Again let it cure over night, than torque down the next day! 

10 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Ok thank you. I will switch to the 10w40. I am running a mechanical oil, volt and coolant temp gauge set from autometer. I've always like the mechanical, looks and function. Is Rotella 10w40 ok for the break in also?

Which Rotella, as there are several different series of which all have different additive packages! 
In general Rotella is a good oil to run in your car though! Most all of the T series use ZDDP, with the exception of T6, and since your “63” doesn’t use a cat they are all excellent oils! Then the only difference is conventional, synthetic or synthetic blend! I run Rotella T4 10w30 in the Indian even though I run a cat! I run the 10w30 because the 3800 is still for the most part an old skool motor!

23 hours ago, 64 kiwi boni said:

Yes good point mate ! 

This picture doesn’t really show much as far as location ,only that it’s back  far enough to get  the radiator in 👍

I need to wait till I get the radiator back and then I can mock up a full shroud template , the plate you can see above is justA the top support for the radiator and I guess it’s a bit of protection from the stock blade when your working on a running engine 

I have hunted around an to looks as though 64 bonneville never had a factory full shroud unlike there sister chevs that certainly did along with the gto s 

Kiwi there was a shroud for the Bonneville, see pics, but I think you could make a better one. If you look close at the pictures of my Z radiator you’ll notice that it’s made of aluminum! The part that the fan would enter is rolled the rest is a flat sheet of aluminum cut and bent appropriately and then the aluminum ring is tig into it. This whole assembly attaches to the radiator itself! Even the radiator retention brackets are custom made for holding the radiator in place. I did the same basic concept for my wife’s Z.

16 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Ok, so how does a straight 30w come into play? Behaves as 30 weight at all temps? Once you figure out the HP, max RPM and what your needs/demands are going to be how do you then decide what oil is best for you? For example, Im running straight 30 weight rotella. I was told by the counter guy at the local parts store to run straight 30 weight because my engine isn't broken in yet. Im running Rotella because it has zink and Comp Cams says to use zink additive or oil with zink in it. But after break in and oil change how do you figure out what oil to run? 

Wrongway, this particular parts guy really doesn’t know what he’s speaking of, sorry! Straight weight oil make no sense today in 99.99% of car engines! The problem with straight weight oil is cold start! First of all depending on ambiance temperature, shear stress, and or particulate, it could actually be thicker on startup! Which means the bearings could be at risk for damage because the oil pump and flow rate of the oils thickness starve the bearing for the proper film thickness! 
I would always run a multi grade oil! The Rotella is a good oil, just run a multi grade in it. If you like a 30 weight then run a 10w30 in the Rotella!

It’s not your fault! Honestly it might seem like oil should be easy, but I assure you it’s not! It’s complicated! If I asked most folk if they knew what the difference was between Newtonian fluid and non-Newtonian fluid was they would stare at me like I was from outer space! Yet in many way that is exactly the comparative difference between a single grade and a multi-grade oil!

On 1/23/2021 at 4:03 PM, 64 kiwi boni said:

Thanks Last indian and JustA. i appreciate your wisdom 

i justA happen to have the thermostatic fan off my camaro, 

i swapped it for a plastic unit way back in 2003 when i rebuilt the motor and my drag racer mates convinced me that it was pulling horse power and i was best do go with a plastic one if i was pull lots of revs..... well i never really did ( rev much) yet the plastic one with the shroud has never over heated and that car has done countless parades, slow congested cruises etc.

The thermostatic unit has the correct bolt pattern and when i am done baby sitting the grand kids this afternoon i will front it too the 64, i am certainly looking at building a shroud, my only issue is that the Pontiac radiator has no frame, it mounts in 3 rubber brackets, so i am looking at mounting a shroud off the front radiator support member. I also need to check the clearances of the fan blades size🙄

It might just be the angle of the picture, but just for reference, as this picture appears, this would not be a desirable setup! The fan needs to sit at least just inside the leading edge of the shroud or a little deeper! Also there should be only about a 1/2 inch clearance between the shroud circumference and the tips of the blades. This is what make a good draw of air through the radiator.

On 1/23/2021 at 5:31 PM, 64 kiwi boni said:

Last Indian,

JustA would like to talk about oil again, last year Frosty asked a question that has been nagging at me too. see above 

finding the correct weight oils seam important to me because of our climate, and would be keen to get a better understanding of how it comes into play when buying oil👍

Oil Weight?! This measurement tells the flow characteristics of an oil at a given temperature! So when you see a oil listed as being a 10w30 it means that oil behaves like a 10 weight oil at 0 deg C (32F) but, at 100C (212F) it behaves like 30 weight! All multigrades behave this way and their measurements ratings are all made at these temperatures. 

Now with that said, when speaking of the viscosity of an oil some things need to be taken into consideration. What kind of motor? What kind of HP? How much bearing clearance? What kind of driving will be done?

If you have bearing clearance of .0030 or more and or you have 275 HP or more and or the motor will see 6000 RPM or more you should run a 20w50 in warm weather! 

With respect to bearing clearance; bigger bearing clearances are typical in old skool motors! This means every time a mixture fires, that larger clearance allows the journal to hammer into the lead/bibbitt bearing. The thicker viscosity oil acts like an air bag does for the stunt man jumping off a roof! It slows down and cushions the impact of that journal. Lower viscosity oil helps with fuel economy and works very well with tighter motors! So some things folks need to consider is, what kind of motor do you have? What are your needs of your motor? What are the demands on your motor? 

On 1/19/2021 at 11:43 PM, 64 kiwi boni said:

Some good news today, the steering arm for the passenger side i sent to the engineers to be magnaflux for cracks came back and completely crack free.

They didn't shot peen it as they said it was not needed🙄,, justA want last Indians opinion on that!

Not getting it shot peened is probably ok since it checked out ok with no cracks! 
But if it had a crack in it I would advise you to replace it! Shot peening is the principal of folding metal, or hammering metal to compress it, which makes it denser! Which in turn makes the metal stronger! This is the principle behind anything cast vs forged! Ancient Samurai swords! The steel these were made from was folded into itself over and over again, using heat and a BFH! This makes the steel very dense, it cause the molecules to become very compressed! This make steel very strong and because of the dense molecular structure the sword holds a very sharp edge for much longer!

On 1/14/2021 at 11:54 PM, 64 kiwi boni said:

I am also thinking of deleting the factory fan, and fitting a thermostatically controlled electric one on the back side of the radiator.

My reasoning is that the factory fan is not thermostatic, so its pulling power straight from cold start, it has no real shroud to make it way more efficient.

It will increase hp justA by removing it.

 What you guys think ??? 🙄

JustA my two cents worth! Electric fans are ok, but bigger HP, old skool motors which actually have a different design in both metallurgy and pattern flow of cooling jackets, can be tricky to keep cool with electrical fans and standard size radiators! 
A three or four row radiator with a shroud and incorporating a good GM clutch fan does the best job at cooling in my experience. In my “69” Z, which had 600 HP in ran a 4 row with the custom aluminum shroud and a GM clutch fan! The motor really could make some heat! But with a 180 thermostat it never failed to stay at 185 to 190!
 

3 hours ago, TerryH said:

Hey guys hope everyone is staying healthy..Not for me this time but for my brother who has a 68 skylark.He is trying to disconnect his wiring on his steering column to replace his steering wheel .He says it should have to go though the bottom of the column but doesn't know if it plugs into the wires going to fuse box or if he can disconnect it elsewhere..Any help would be great

Thanks Terry

Pretty sure it’s connection point is the same as my Camaro’s was (see pic)! The wiring from the top, horn, turn signal, flashers, disconnects mid column & comes out the top, through the plastic sleeve that the wiring runs through! But if all he is doing is replacing the steering wheel he should not need to pull the wiring!