350 2V upgrade to H.O.

[Paully]

Can or should I upgrade my Can. 2+2 350 2v to a high output, with camshaft, 4bbl carb., and dual exhaust without affecting orginal integrity? My '69 conv. was offered with a 350 H.O. engine by GM originally. Will it affect mt car's value up or down?

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Rule of thumb with a car's value is that modifications usually do not increase it.

A car like that may be more desirable 100% stock and all original. If you plan on modifying it, you may have to put it back to stock if you want to sell it as people more and more want older cars in original condition.

[Frosty]

I agree with Chaos. You can modify the motor with those modifications rather easily. The car is more valuable if it is all numbers matching (engine and transmission match the car's VIN #). I recommend keeping the original 2 bbl intake, carb, linkage and air cleaner together and sell them with the car should you sell it at some point time in the future. That way the future owner can determine if he/she wants to restore the car to original or leave it as you've tweaked it.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

It's not even muscle cars, my boss has been selling of his collection of 930 Porsches (the 911 turbos from 83-90) and all the buyers want the cars as original as possible. Granted, they're all selling for +$50K a pop, money talks.

[notallthere]

Just store the original parts that came with the car. Camshafts will not necessarily make a huge difference as they are internal but they will entice buyers to the exhaust note.

[Frosty]

Just store the original parts that came with the car. Camshafts will not necessarily make a huge difference as they are internal but they will entice buyers to the exhaust note.

I don't know that I would bother storing the original camshaft and lifters. If the car has a fair number of miles on it, I would expect the lobes and lifters to be worn. These can be easily replaced with a stock replacement grind and a new set of lifters from a quality camshaft company like Comp or Melling.

If you do replace the cam, make sure you follow the camshaft makers break in directions. Proper break-in is essential to any engine.

[Paully]

Doed same apply to drum to disc upgrade? I'm guessing so.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Of course. Even if the modification is actually making the car safer and better, you're eliminating the original value of the car.

Resto-mods are popular these days, though.

[stratman]

Doed same apply to drum to disc upgrade? I'm guessing so.

I don't think upgrading to front discs effects the value appreciably as it was an option for your car. My GTO came with drums all around, but was upgraded to front discs for safety. If you are planning to drive it and are not going for a 100 point concourse car, I would recommend it.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

I don't think upgrading to front discs effects the value appreciably as it was an option for your car. My GTO came with drums all around, but was upgraded to front discs for safety. If you are planning to drive it and are not going for a 100 point concourse car, I would recommend it.

For a numbers matching collector's car, safety is irrelevant. Main reason why they aren't driven much.

[havoc1482]

Wait, are you saying you are going to upgrade to a 4bbl?

[Frosty]

Does same apply to drum to disc upgrade? I'm guessing so.

Yes, keep the original, hard to find, numbers matching parts that are desirable for any concurs collector down the road. If the part is replaceable, like brake shoes, then there is no need to keep them. Most disc upgrades will give you a new master cylinder and perhaps a new proportioning valve, so keep the originals.

Of course. Even if the modification is actually making the car safer and better, you're eliminating the original value of the car.

Resto-mods are popular these days, though.

The original value can be put back so long as the original, hard to find parts are kept and stored properly. Selling them, will be what diminishes the value. Having the original parts at the time of sale will maintain the value. On the flip side, those parts are worth something to someone restoring a car like yours. The choice is yours. If you have the room and don't need the money, keep the parts.

I don't think upgrading to front discs effects the value appreciably as it was an option for your car. My GTO came with drums all around, but was upgraded to front discs for safety. If you are planning to drive it and are not going for a 100 point concourse car, I would recommend it.

Depends on the car show. Concurs / points judged shows requires you to produce documentation on how the car was built. So if the car is an all drum brake car, that is what the judges expect to see. Safety is not necessarily the concern. Somethings judges do allow changes for various considerations. Upgrading to front disc brakes isn't necessarily one of them.

However, I agree with you that it is a great mod. My '72 is fortunate enough to come with factory front disc brakes. I would love to upgrade to rear discs sometime in the future, but my car is not numbers matching at all either. So I am not worried about concurs points ever. Resto-moding is popular because it allows you to apply more modern technology to old cars. So the cars can perform, handle, and stop better than they ever did new while maintaining their classic good looks.

For a numbers matching collector's car, safety is irrelevant. Main reason why they aren't driven much.

I disagree to a point. In the example of 4 wheel drum brakes, it is because that is how the car was built and it will stop the car (with more stopping distance), then yes, safety (as compared to front disc brakes) is not as relevant. Most judges will allow the use of modern fuel hoses (because of today's fuel formulations break down original hoses from within causing a potential fire hazard), certain optional reproduction batteries are allowed since many of the original style batteries (top post or side post) are not reproduced anymore, same is true with oil filters (for example - many of the old AC Delco oil and air filters are not available anymore from GM).

The main reason they are not driven is that they have become trailer queens due to the cost of their restorations. Most people don't spend nearly six figures to restore a dilapidated rare/valuable daily driver just to make it a daily driver again.

[havoc1482]

The main reason they are not driven is that they have become trailer queens due to the cost of their restorations. Most people don't spend nearly six figures to restore a dilapidated rare/valuable daily driver just to make it a daily driver again.

I would. I'm not a fan of trailer queens. In my opinion there is no fun factor in having a nice car that you don't take for a spin when weather permits. My dream is to get the Phoenix restored one day and I plan on driving the shit out of it. Of course my Phoenix is considered an "undesirable", so no one will care

[Frosty]

Havoc, I admire your spirit. I have no great love for trailer queens either, but I understand and respect it. Lets be real. If you just paid Scott Tiemann, one of the preeminent Pontiac restorers in the country, to restore a very desirable 1 of 26 '71 GTO Judge convertibles. It cost $150k to restore. The car is worth $400k and up. You may drive it from time to time in perfect weather, but it will be a trailer queen any other time to protect its restored and real market value.

On the other hand, you are not likely to spend $150k restoring the Phoenix and then flogging the hell of out it as a daily grocery getter either. Nobody does that. Why spend $150k on a daily driver when you can buy a handful of other POS cars for a lot less money.

[havoc1482]

Havoc, I admire your spirit. I have no great love for trailer queens either, but I understand and respect it. Lets be real. If you just paid Scott Tiemann, one of the preeminent Pontiac restorers in the country, to restore a very desirable 1 of 26 '71 GTO Judge convertibles. It cost $150k to restore. The car is worth $400k and up. You may drive it from time to time in perfect weather, but it will be a trailer queen any other time to protect its restored and real market value.

On the other hand, you are not likely to spend $150k restoring the Phoenix and then flogging the hell of out it as a daily grocery getter either. Nobody does that. Why spend $150k on a daily driver when you can buy a handful of other POS cars for a lot less money.

Well, you have to think of it from my perspective. I didn't grow up in your time, so by using a restored car like my Phoenix as car I drive often would give me a time-traveling feel. As I mentioned in a different thread, I am fascinated by the world before I came to be, the same world you grew up in. Sometimes when I drive the Phoenix in the summer, down a road with no traffic, I turn to my classic rock station and try to imagine to the best of my ability that its 1978. Would I take it out in adverse conditions? Not often as it wouldn't be my designated daily driver, and it would be in good condition. Most people think its sacrilege, but driving the Phoenix in snow storms and heavy rain and all sorts of conditions was awesome for me when I was 16/17, really got me to appreciate what it must have been to drive cars like that as daily drivers. Market value isn't as big of a concern as emotional value for me.

Now, thats just me. I'm a history buff, I always day dream about what it was like lol, so I take whatever reasonable opportunity to replicate it. It doesn't mean I don't look forward either tho.

BUT I DIGRESS.

I still want an answer to my original question: Paully, are you planning on upgrading to a 4bbl?