Last Indian

Yes! All of it! Just like a medical Dr. they use everything, if they’re good, to determine what’s wrong with you. It’s like that, but there is a leaning curve. “and if you have a dirty engine whats the best way to clean it up without pulling it apart?” change the oil & filter, run 200 to 300 miles, drain, & repeat. Do this and increase the flush miles by 100 miles each time by the time you reach 1000 mile drain flush, if not before you should see a marked improvement in oil cleanliness! If not, it’s not going to get better! Filters; there’s junk & there’s good stuff, but so many filter manufacturers have cheapened their products. Wix and AC Delco use to be the best, but even those two had cheapened some of their line with a plastic cage arrangement! The best filters have metal top & bottom caps that are glued. Many will argue that oil is so clean today good filtration isn’t needed, that’s just plan stupid! The filter is more about what comes from the engine itself or what it may ingest through engine breathing! I personally have a stock pile of old style AC Delco’s that are the metal caps that are glued.

Tag, you’re it!😁

Where have I heard that before?! Sometimes I guess it just takes an outsider! I could expound, but!

Welcome! Did someone say pics? We love em!

Yup! That’s what happens & there’s no way to do it right except pull it tear it apart & rebuild it 🤭. Or leave it and just keep changing the oil every 500 miles till it stops! And I’ve never done that to a really dirty sludge up motor so I can’t say it would stop! 😳! New oil, because of the high TBN + new detergents etc. will clean varnish & sludge from that type of motor very quickly, but only till the contamination level overwhelms/depletes the TBN & additives. Which happens very quickly! So you need to remove that oil or it will simply rebuild what it removed. When we run an oil test in an engine, a clean engine, then we run a new test in that engine we do at least 2 full flushes. Depending on the oil the test and the engine it can be three and the flush times can be anywhere from an hour to 150 miles!

Give my buddy JustA a cigar! Make it two! I hope nobody here thinks I think that I’m smarter of more accomplished at doing this! I’ve just done this a long long time & because of my line of work I got to see a very large array of conditions. So I have been able to correlate engine conditions to oil conditions. But to simplify it, most folks drain oil conditions, where there are no unusual circumstances, JustA’s statement is dead on! Light color = NEW oil Gets darker over the life of the oil. Coffee color= Change it...... That smell! That’s a combination of fractured oil molecules, blowby & additives that have been oxidized. In tranny fluid, it’s oil molecules that have been fractured and additives that have been oxidized as well as fractured. Again the oxidation is obvious, by color! The tranny fluid goes from a crisp red or pinkish color, depending on which fluid. To a browner appearing fluid. Oil as well as additive molecules fracture at about 350c, that’s 660f. Now you may not think your engine or tranny ever reach that temperature, but under certain conditions at very thin film thickness it can and does. Places like automatic clutch plates, bearing surfaces, etc.. I have done may test engine experiments where I thermal-coupled multiple areas of an engine or transmission, you would be astounded as to what temperatures reach in specific areas. The situation JustA specks of, as did I, with regard to the speckling in the oil & than in turn the sludge in an engine and cleaning it up! These are two different events, but they are interrelated. The speckling in the oil drop I spoke of above is from the natural combustion process (aka blowby) as well as valve train drain back! Also there is a portion that comes from the ZDDP! As I stated before, when ZDDP is not consumed through friction, read that as harder use, it stays in the bulk oil. Then eventually when the oil is in the engine long enough, being exposed to regular engine heat, blowby, the combustion process, a portion returns to the sump over and over again. This interacts with the ZDDP and creates sludge! This is why many older engines from the “60s”, “70s” & “80s” would have that thick sludge in them. That era ran the highest amounts of ZDDP in oils. This is why I have stated over and over, unless you’re racing or you are really running the car hard constantly, higher amounts of ZDDP are counter productive,. Because sludge in of itself causes wear!

Welcome! Did anyone mention we love pics!

Can you explain what you would like me to explain to try and make things more clear? I understand there might easily be a learning curve!

Well! This is going to take some explaining to say the least & I have no doubt there will be skeptics! But, this is something I’ve done since I was 14 years old! Yes I was young I know hard to believe! But I started working on cars @ 11 & racing @ 14. None the less I had done it so long it was just second nature to me. As I got more and more involved with specialty projects at work that centered around oil quality folks that I worked with were amazed at how accurate I would be about oil conditions when we would get test results back from samples we had taken and I had commented on at the time of extraction. I have always just used a white absorbent paper towel to wipe the oil on and then read the color. This is how I could judge the condition of the oil. In 1998 two colleagues that I had worked with for several years took some interest as to how I did this, so I tried to show them, but no matter how I tried they could not see what I would see! That led me to start working with black light to try to enhance the iridescent quality of the changing components of the oil. This helped some, but there were just to many irons in the fire at that time we all moved on to different projects. Than mid 2003 I approached our Vice President of research about the idea & if there was some way to take chemistry that would enhance a sample of oil when it was wiped on to a treated paper. So in early 2004 a patent was applied for to do just that. Now I’m not a chemist, I had learned much in 35 years, but not how to do that! So through some of my guidance we had arrived at a solution. It wasn’t perfect in my opinion, but I didn’t have the last word. If you what you can see that patent, just google US7754488 patent. Since then I have found some other ways that seem to enhance color observations better that just wiping oil on a white absorbent paper, which is what I typically have always done, no chemistry on the paper So now I will try explain & show as we go forward. Some of this I will need to figure out how or where I will get samples. As of right now I have oil samples I will show, but they’re all from health engines! Meaning the oil is just aged from use. These samples run from the indian (2000 Grand Prix) @ 500 mile, 2013 Buick @ 2800 & 2012 Buick @ 3300, which is just about due for an oil change! So these are a good starting point, but you can also see, when present, fuel dilution, too much blow-by, coolant leaks, emulsion, excessive carbon & abnormal wear! the picture below! Left drop of oil is brand new Oil from my supply. The drop on the right is from the Indian, it has 500 miles on it. It’s a perfect color for the mileage. this picture below is the Same as above with the addition of the bottom left drop being from 2013 Buick 3.6 direct injection. This oil has 2800 miles on it. If you look close you’ll see the red hue of the oil! You’ll also notice that it has the appearance of a darker center that seem to be speckled ever so slightly! The red hue is oxidation of the oil. The red hue is a good indicator of the oxidation level. this picture below is again the same as above with the addition of the right lower drop of oil. This drop is from a 2012 Buick 3.6 direct injection. This oil has 3300 miles on it and needs changed soon! Notice the chocolate red color with no outer fringe of red, but if you look close again is an appearance of speckling. This indicates that carbon, varnish and heavy oxidation have taken place and the only thing that will now come from this oil is going to be more negative than the protection the oil can offer! Metal surfaces will start to varnish up & carbon will start to buildup!

Well first off that’s really sad! Funny, but sad! In another 15 maybe 20 years this country is so screwed! I’ve said it before I’ll say it again! When a country looses it ability to make machines of war their demise is eminent! We are just about there & this pandemic has only shown this to be truer than ever before! Now to the important stuff! Two quick what if’s and thoughts! I would agree with you Steve, I don’t think it over fueled! By your description it sound like, 1. Lack of fuel, like the power circuit isn’t reacting quick enough! Maybe the spring valve is sticking? Or, 2. possibly a vacuum leak that needs a temperature rise to a certain point to cause enough of a gap to create that leak? I had that on my daughters “91” 3.4 Grand Prix! Intake manifold would create a vacuum leak after running long enough to create a gap at the gasket. What a pain to find! It happened in the winter. She was just out of college about a year and still at home here. So the car sat outside. So depending on the temperature of the day it would happen in varying lengths of time. While you don’t see an idle issue, that would mean it’s not an external leak, it could be an internal vacuum leak in the carb, maybe?

Sorry, I forgot to mention it all looks good though! Except whatever that mess was in the air box! Really like the emblems, big difference!

I know it’s a little late, but best luck I’ve always had is a heat gun and a auto body plastic spreader with a very thin edge. This usually just slices most of the adhesive tape and emblem right. Than just some cleanup with lacquer thinner.

JustA thought, but two things come to mind. I know you run tripower, but what about an accelerator pump? Also, did you check the distributor advance? JustA thought!

Like Ringo’s virtual car show! Show off your engine! As Hot Rodders our engines are often a work of art! So let’s see um! The music In this video is for JustA & Frosty! FullSizeRender.mov

Specifically if you regularly run levels of ZDDP over 1500ppm and you just drive regular, no racing and not hot rodding all the time when driving you run the risk of the following depending on oil consumption rates! ZDDP work by heat & pressure, but mainly heat! To explain it in layman terms! Because it’s a boundary layer chemistry it only gets activated when there is enough of each. If there isn’t enough it stays dormant in the bulk oil. When there is enough it builds a film. That film is self limiting, meaning when and if the layer builds thick enough it stops. When that film wears down enough it starts to make it again! So in racing, lots of friction, or hot rodding, the film builds up and shrinks continuously, which in turn depletes the ZDDP additive. When you drive more docile nothing much happens to the ZDDP! If you have enough blow-by or valve train leakage that allows oil to enter the combustion chamber; the results are excessive carbon deposits! Substantial more than without ZDDP, because the main byproduct of ZDDP is carbon! So if you look at what I’ve been saying, and I might not have been saying it well enough! If you are racing or hot rodding, 1200ppm to a max 1500ppm! If you are driving street driving, more docile, getting on it hear and there, 830ppm to 1000ppm is more than enough. If you run a catalytic converter, 700ppm to 900ppm is enough. But the amount of oil that is consumed in the combustion process because of engine condition may change that!

Well looking at the Amtex I’m not that concerned! The ZDDP is at the top end of the top for regular oil, not break-in oil. While it’s 1500ppm the sulphated ash is quite low @ 9630! This has a offsetting effect for corrosion long term. Yes it appears that Rimula is a Euro version of the Rotella. The US & Europe have different chemistry because they both approach emissions differently.

All good questions Kiwi! You are correct that different engines have different needs! So no it’s no myth! From both a base stock oil as well as additives. Still you can narrow the field of oils you need to a degree partly because oils, like lots of things tend to be backward compatible. Such as a GF6 oil is compatible for an engine that took a GF4 oil, but certain differences might rule out a particular oil, such as the unavailability of a viscosity grade! Specifically you would need to look for a relative viscosity grade for an engine within a range. Example, if you have a motor that needs and uses a 20W50 Oil because of bearing tolerances, in turn it also runs no catalytic, plus you run it hard or race it! Than your not going to look for a Dexos oil because of their viscosity grades! You are additionally going to want a good anti-wear additive like ZDDP. You’ll want the range to fall somewhere between mid 700ppm which is a little low & 1200ppm, which is on the high side. This is all a lot of work so instead this is why I said you look for a fully formulated diesel oil like Chevron’s Delo 400 or Shell’s Rotella T4. Both have ample amounts of additives, including ZDDP. Oil sitting in an engine for an extended period of time is ok! Unless the oil is nearing oil change time, than I would always change it before putting it up! Also I would change it if you have fuel dilution or a coolant leak! Even when these two items aren’t bad enough to be a detriment when driving regularly, they create oxidation and acid, so when left sitting for extended periods they tend to etch metal, which is corrosion. Good numbers! TBN, well back in the day you use to be able to get a 13 or 14 TBN oil, today good luck! The highest I’ve seen is Delo Multigrade or Rotella T4 @ 10.1! Need I say more! That said in my opinion the Delo has to much zinc, @ 1500 & sulfated ash @ 14000! Where the Rotella has 1200ppm of zinc and 10000 sulfated ash, much more reasonable. TAN, that is a measurement taken as the oil is degrading and basically can only be made by drawing a sample and sending it to a lab for analysis, but! Good news! That is to be the next segment I start! How to analyze our oil at home by color!

Welcome! Good luck with your search! We love pictures!

Finally got the other side made! Always a pain trying to make & match a left and right side freehand! still got to sand & polish!

FullSizeRender.mov This exhaust is stock except for 3” down pipe & a ZZP SS front manifold log. While driving Then idle IMG_0559.MP4 FullSizeRender.mov

I know that! We talked about it before. One of my all time favorite bands! Along with Triumph, these two three man bands made more music withe three guys than most with five! Believe me! I’ve seen the live more then once,. One time at Geneva on the Lake in a nightclub! I think that was when I lost the second 25% of my hearing! I met Knight, Farner & Brewer in “67”, talked to them for about an hour, was pretty cool for a 16 year old!

What does it take to extend an oil drain? We once had a chemist at the company that was one of those guys that just walked to a different beat! He drove a ratty old car, never really did anything to it. This timeframe was late “70s” early “80s”! Never changed the oil, never! Every so often he’d pull a quart of oil out with a vampire pump and add a fresh quart! He ended up with around 140,000 miles on the motor. That was a lot of miles for a car back then, especially no oil or filter change! By comparison I had a 1967 Impala SS, change the oil every 3000 miles religiously, sold the car in 1975 with a 130,000 on it and that was nearly unheard of then! So you see the chemist was basically replenishing the additives on a regular basis. Now I don’t subscribe to that type of engine treatment, but the point is renewing additives does effectively extend drain intervals. Because additives are what give that life blood fluid its ability to keep the engine humming along. THE NEED FOR ANTIOXIDANT ADDITIVES When exposed to heat, oxygen and metal contamination, lubricants undergo oxidation. Base oils can perform many lubrication functions, but they can’t protect against the detrimental effects of oil oxidation. Oxidation creates polymers, oil-insoluble high-molecular-weight molecules that increase the viscosity of the lubricant, accelerate wear and eventually leads to varnish. The hard “baked on” polymeric coating of varnish also accelerates wear and is a long-term detriment. Oxidation also creates sludge, a soft oil-insoluble material made of combustion byproducts that suspend in oil. If it remains too long, sludge can plug oil lines and filters leading to oil starvation in the machinery and adhere to metal surfaces, accelerating wear. Along with other hard accumulations of sludge and varnish typically on pistons and valves in engines, deposits due to oxidation can cause valve and ring sticking, eventually leading to catastrophic increase in wear. There is good news however. Even though lubricant degradation processes are complex, the solution is straight forward. Antioxidant additives minimize oxidation and deposit formation. Detergents and dispersants also play a role in mitigating the effects of sludge and deposits. TBN gives an indication of the amount of base available in the oil to neutralize organic and inorganic acids that accumulate in the crankcase of engines during their operation. TBN or the quantity of base is expressed in milligrams of potassium hydroxide per gram that is required to titrate a sample, dissolved in a specific solvent to a specified endpoint. The importance of TBN has multiple impact on an engine! But not all TBN is created equally! Having a good TBN number means very little in the absence of a TAN number, why? Because they are not counter corresponding numbers, meaning as one goes up they other comes down! This is not true of all TBN! TBN has many influences, detergents, dispersants, etc! There are two types of additives: bulk oil additives and surface additives. Bulk additives affect the rheological, interfacial and chemical properties of the lubricant, and surface additives are active at metal surfaces. So how do we, the guy in the backyard, figure this all out as best we can without a lab at our disposal?!

I think you been listening to Grand Funk’s paranoid! Why to much!

Today nearly everybody seems to push for longer drain intervals, but why? Now oil manufacturers don’t, of course, but auto makers do, fleet owners do, the railroads do & EPA of course, again why? Money, what else! Oil companies aren’t in favor of it because they’ll loose money, less oil sold! Auto OEMs, fleet owners and the like want longer drains because it will save money! So what is right for the engine? Just extending drains doesn’t work! Putting in more additives helps, but is less than perfect for many reasons! One thing that can and does work is replenishment of certain additives! In the mid 90s a team of four was formed by my company to pursue such an effort with a railroad company of which I was one of the four. Chemistry’s were gathered, equipment was designed and invented and testing was done! Concepts were proved and as we moved close to a operational launch, guess what! The OEM builder of the locomotive got wind of it! Because the rail company needed a sign off for engine warranty issues and that lead to a whole host of issues! Why? Because, you guessed it, they wanted a cut! This OEM is a huge corporation, bigger than both of us combined. Once they got involved it was just a slow death spiral that lasted 2 years! A few years after this saga closed I entered another team of of 5 as I mentioned. This effort was successful with pass car. We developed a product, partnered with a filter company and had a successful product line. Not exactly the way we originally wanted it, but still successful. Yet what we were after was the trucking industry and extended drains! We were once again on our way, chemistry’s in place, equipment built & invented, over 2 million over the road test miles run and getting close to a launch time frame. This time we needed an OEM oil manufacturer sign off, so they sent a top PhD to the test engines tear down, big mistake! Once he saw the inside of these engines, we were done! He went back to California reported his observations and one week later our CEO got a call from theirs! We were to to cease and disease desist! Dead in the water! So what does it take to extend an oil drain?

Kiwi, I’m not paying anything😁! Did I ever mention I worked for one of the largest specialty chemical additive companies in the world! One of the perks of running experimental testing! I think my reserve stock will take me well past my oil changing days!🤞 Checking online it appears you can get a gallon of T4, here for around $15. It looks like the Valvoline syn runs about $20 a gallon. So again you see my point! The T4 is conventional oil, the Valvoline is syn oil, I would run both 3000 to 3500 miles for an oil change, but the T4, which I run in the Indian I Change every other year, which is usually between 1000 & 1500 miles. The point is the T4 has the full additive package that was always in both oils till they cut the pass car additive package in half. But the T4 is cheaper than the Valvoline! Really!!