Last Indian

My mistake Frosty! I should pay better attention to what I read. I saw packed wheel bearings and spindle nut and I guess I saw in my minds eye Timken tapered rollers on front spindles of a rear wheel drive. Duh! 😔

Jack, understandably Frosty is thinking traditional rear wheel drive. Notallthere is on the right track, but still most likely not the problem. It sounds like either the inner or outer CV joint of the axle on that side. If it was the bearing it would make the noise all the time, not just in a turn, in a turn scenario is when the CV is flexed the most and the sharper the turn the more the joint is stressed. Except for inward force to remove the axle from the bearing no impacts should be used & it is imperative that the axle shaft be supported properly through the entire process. Otherwise damage to the CVs will occur, which more often than not occurs as a result of improper support. The bearing is a pre-assembled/pre-greased unit and not a tapered roller bearing. Unfortunately to replace the axle assembly you must remove it from the bearing again and I never feel good about reusing a bearing of that type over again, but that's up to you.

Some clarification on some of the suspension mods! FWD’s are notorious for torque steer, even worse than rear wheel posi-traction. FWD’s have deadlier results because unlike rear wheel drives that can counter against torque steer some by steering the front wheels to counter the effect, fwd cars can’t do that. The torque is on the front wheels that steer and the wheel geometry is changing do to that load and poor suspension components. Some of the more recent FWD cars have made effective changes to help eliminate torque steer through incorporating a right side drive shaft bearing to control shaft whip. They also have finally changed the weak and worthless vertical A-arm mount and a few other things to keep suspension geometries in place during high torque loads. Yet for those who have older FWD’s there are really not many or any aftermarket remedies. So to clarify things that can help those who want to reduce torque steer here are some details. 

The lower A-arm is the largest offender, the lower vertical bushing literally allows the suspension geometry to change split second by split second under torque loads, causing the car to be incapable of turning, but just plowing straight.

Upper strut brace, another offender. With most front wheel cars having at least 60% of the weight in the front half, nearly all cars see a substantial flex/movement in the upper strut body housings and strut hardware, I.E. strut bearings, mounts, strut shaft, etc… 

I finally found a few suspension pieces I’ve been in search of for awhile. Front sway bar polyurethane frame bushings & a 1” diameter rear sway bar with polyurethane frame bushings. One of the issues with sway bars and their effectiveness is energy transfer. This almost always comes from inadequate links. In the case of the Grand Prix both the front & rear links are inadequate and once the links are improved the frame bushings become inadequate, with the rears being the worst in both links and bushings. Once the rears are improved properly the rear suspension carrier becomes suspect. So while I had improved it in 2004 I found interference problems with the lateral bars and had to cut some of the bracing out which in turn allowed the carrier to be less than adequate once again. On this refresh another carrier was acquired and modified with bracing in a way as to not interfere with suspension travel. 
Another issue was in the front. Between the larger solid bar and the huge improvement in the front links energy transfer was vastly improved and even in the hardest cornering a flat response occurred, but even a double jam nut would not stop the unthreading of the link shaft over time. So I finally pinned the lock nut of the upper jam nut and that resolved the issue with no more occurrences. I expect additional improvements with the larger rear bar and the added polyurethane frame bushings.

The brakes are a bit of a different animal though. New OEM lines were used and most nearly all the rest was either cleaned up and reused or made. External hardware is OEM, or at least appears to the casual observer to be OEM, but that’s were it stops. Rotors, pads, fluid, O’rings, peddle ratios & material selections are all changed, I.E. non stock or custom. From a purely pragmatic standpoint a car brake system is a fairly simple hydraulic system. It's applied physics, the total weight, weight distribution, center of gravity, roll center and weight transfer, along with coefficient of friction for materials, add fluid chemistry for work function. This may sound complicated, but it's not. Yet the OEMs have complicated the hell out of it to C.T.A…. So I take my systems back to the basics that work best and longest without problems. OEMs use large square, and I use the word loosely, O’rings, why? O’rings are a mechanical device, there is a whole mathematical science around them, they are not a gasket. They are round for a purpose and the tiny center ridge that runs around them is not a parting line. I could detail more, but it's not the point here. So number one I change both the O’ring? To an actual O’ring and from buna rubber to Viton. Most brake systems hold residual pressure which in turn creates brake drag. In every system I run I look for a way to negate or elevate that pressure.

OEM replacement lines & Evap system.

So for those who have a interest in these types of things I hope this helps in some way. As I said the fuel & brake systems needed refreshed. All lines, fill tube, vent system, tank, pump and hoses were replaced by I.E. OEM pieces. Also the area under the fuel tank and rear suspension carrier were never fully painted with the special paint I use, so now I could finish that.

Call it the 13 year itch or what ever you like, but it's been that long since the major upgrade in 2004 on the Indian. So with it being 17 years old it was time for a major refresh and some upgrades as well as some improvements from what’s been learned in 13 years of mods in use.
     
First the fuel & brake systems need refreshed. All lines, fill tube, vent system, tank, pump and hoses.

Copy that! 
For me the Camaro died after the 2nd generation, when they went to McPherson struts & went to a complete unibody. I understand their car designs are to make a profit, which is why I seldom leave a car stock. The OEMs often choose a design of a component based on cost not engineering function. 

Nice assortment of Pontiacs Mark!

Joe, it looks like you've done a really great job on the Lemans!

A little input about the traction/rear end issue that might help. The issue you’re seeing is somewhat common with racing/burnouts/very hard acceleration. I raced for years and I would see two problems with GM axles at the track. The first was the issue your speaking of, posi’s don't like burnouts! That’s not their purpose, If you keep doing burnouts you won’t have posi long and the rear end will just revert to an open rear end. A blue printered open rear end will out perform a posi under those conditions and if you setup the suspension right it will lay down two patches of rubber! Without going all technical on you or worse yet hearing the “you’re full of it” go do a little investigating and see what 700 hp NASCAR cars run or top dragsters run. If you like I can give you some ideas to improve the suspension to help, but as long as you run the posi it's going to torque steer till the posi breaks!

It's always difficult to diagnose car issues from a far & electrical is even worse, that said, lets see what we can figure out. Since your description is a little vague let me ask some questions. Do you have at least 12 votes at both the starter & solenoid in the crank position. If yes, and I doubt it how about just key on? There is also a fuel pump relay on the right side by the battery in the wire harness. Those blow from time to time and strand people. 

Today I started the first refresh of the Indian since the initial restructuring mods in 2004. This is to gut the underside from the engine back and replace all lines, gas tank, hoses, etc... Pluse a few structural upgrades in the back & a few suspension upgrades front & back. Replacing all the weatherstripping/reveal molding, etc... A couple interior mods and in general a good cleanup of what you never can get to without a tear down! 

Hey Frosty thanks for the parts!😁!! Well it had your picture on it!

Couldn't find the single picture of the black 2002 the first time! 

Forgot to mention I also owned a "88" GTA for 6 months in 2012.

My first car was a Pontiac, a "64" GTO in early "68" than the "69" Z/28 came out and bye bye GTO hello Z. Than in 2000 the Grand Prix followed by 2002 Black GP, a 2002 white GP & a red 2003 GP.

Well it may not help, but ground issues are the second largest causes of electrical issues. There are multiple grounds connections up front. The main ground on the frame by the battery, four on the engine & trans, one on the back firewall, one over by the drivers strut tower. Four out front on the core support. Then at least 4 under in the cab area. All of these should be pulled and wire brushed and the surface they attach to should be wire to clean metal. Then when reconnected electrical grease should be used to coat them.

Did ou pull and clean any grounds & if so do you recall which ones?

2020, one other thought. Put the trans in manual mode. Place the shifter in 1st. as you drive shift to 2nd. then 3rd., but don't put it in D. See if that keeps it from down shifting.

Ok, you'll need to get a tech with high end obdll that can test the trans operation. Most likely it's a shift solenoid or more likely the pressure control solenoid valve. If that proves to be the case, that a load of work. Everything on the drivers side has to come out or pull the tranny. Either way if the cars worth it & that's the problem you might be better off replacing the tranny.

Then you'll need a tech with a high end obdll to check out the electronic shift solenoids one is most likely bad, possibly the pressure control solenoid valve. If it's one of them their a real pain. Got to pull everything on the drivers side, suspension, axle, etc. ugly! Sorry! If the cars worth it put in a new 4t65e hd. 

So your saying you have cruise control?

Do you know if you have cruise control? It appears the yellow wire feeds the cruise & the cruise & trac control are tied together. Because all traction control does is low rpms. So possibly it's one of two things, 12 volt power to yellow or a ground issue. See if you have cruise, then pull the cruise fuse and also check your ground connections. If that's not it…. Well we’ll keep thinking.

2020, if I may, first off wheel sensors if the don’t work simply revert to a dormant mode, I.E. no abs & no traction control. So they are a non issue under all circumstances. The downshifting issue is another story! It is definitely electronic, but without looking at a schematic I can’t say what. That will take a little time, I have all the manuals, I just have to go see what interfaces with what. In the mean time you can look at another possibility. While it may be a slim one, I’ve mentioned this before, that these platforms are are wired with five 12 volt leads. They feed the ignition switch which is a series of finger switches that distribute power to the rest of the car. It is very common for these finger switches to burn and when they do they no longer deliver 12 volts. This in turn causes electrical issues with whatever branch is on that 12 volt lead. As of now I don't know how, if at all the tac ties into the equation. So try two things, first go down on the steering column and find the plug coming out of the ignition switch. Locate the 12 volt supplies at the plug. Using a volt meter, with the key on, get in to the backside of the wire were it inserts into the plug and see if you get 12 volts. Do this for each 12 volt lead. The other, and you may wish to do this first is disconnect the traction control at the source, not the switch. 

Sorry for your problem, but wheel sensors won't cause this problem! I can't go in to detail right now, but I'll explain tomorrow.

Frosty, when you say two hours outside of Sun Valley, ID. Was this to the place where the fella was building the planes? And was the Corsair an F2g or an F4u? This is a said story, but I ask because the man I knew, Bob Odegaard and his facility is in Kindred, ND., but that's like 17 hour from Sun Valley. The first plane he restored was a P51 that he started in “89” and the first Super Corsair, which is the red one, 57 in the pictures, he would have been working on about that time frame.
The story in short with a said ending! Cook Cleland and my father-in-law Dick Becker were best friends in the Navy in WWII. When Cook got out he bought an airport in Willoughby, Ohio an urged Dick to retire from the Navy and come in with him and he did. Then Cook bought 4 surplus F2g Super Corsairs, 94,84,74 & 57. There were only 10 Super Corsairs ever built. After they finished racing in “49” 57 was sold 94 was used for training in Cleveland somewhere and eventually destroyed, 84 was lost in the Cleveland air race crash of “47” & 74 fell into disrepair and was in very bad condition. The Crawford Auto Aviation Museum bought 74 from the fella that had it sitting on his property in Newbury, Oh. with the intent to restore it for the museum.
So they contracted Bob Odegaard to do this. He and Dick had become acquainted over the years from different events Dick would be asked to attend because of the racing history. Crawford ended up bailing out on the project due to financial constraints. So Bob bought & finished 74 in 2012. I talked to Bob in June of 2012 and he was excited because he was getting very close to being ready for the first flight of 74. In mid July of “12” Bob fly 74 for the first time since “49”. Sadly on Sept. 8th 2012 both Bob & 74 were loss in a crash. Only two F2g’s remain and only 57 is flying condition.

 http://www.warbirds-eaa.org/featured/6Featured Articles - Vol.35, No. 03- April 2012 - You'll Never See This Again!.pdf