07LY7

i do have to agree with AaronGTR with the DT loss %'s on FWD's. I have owned several FWD cars and from my experience, the loss is at its highest 18%. I also had an AWD and the DT loss on that was about 24%. these are from the tuners that I have had work done. I wish i still had everything (papers and what not) for those cars but so much moving and i lost a lot of stuff. but all my cars were DSM's. nothing pontiac. sorry

ill eventually get some numbers on the vibe soon to be able to tell the difference.

Generally, I would tend to agree, but the dyno my friend uses for his LY7 saturn gave him 194.8 whp. Now, at 252 hp SAE , that's a 23% drive train loss.

It's all guess work thought unless you've yanked the engine out of the car and crank dyno'd it. What can ya do...

Yeah, I just asked my tuners what my pulse width is, so I hopefully I'll be able to calculate my duration %tage soon. I do know that the one guy that dyno'd stock did have a higher than 20% dt loss, but who know with mine

235 whp does sound like a lot for those injectors. Even at 60 psi and using a BSFC of .6 (since you're turbo'd), you'd still need at least 25 lb injectors to get those kinds of numbers...and that's running static duration.

Hopefully my tuners will be able to tell me my pulse width is. They whole heartedly believe I'm not out of fuel, but they are used to tuning v8's and are stuck in that paradox of making 400 crank hp using 24 lb injectors on an LS1. So they assume 23.6 lb injectors should be more than able to make 315 crank hp...but the numbers just aren't there.

My main problem is we have had 3 separate guys, with three separate setups ALL max out betwen 221 - 223 whp. NOBODY has made more and we're talking p&p's, headers, custom dyno tunes, etc, etc. Hopefully by the end of this week my friends engine rebuild will tell us. Fact is, we just don't have enough data yet.

Well, I HIGHLY doubt you are over 20% drivetrain loss. Most newer transmission are getting more and more efficient, not the other way around. 20% is pretty standard for a FWD automatic or a RWD manual. 15% for a FWD manual. 25% is usually 4WD territory.

oh, and btw yes using HP calculations is a good way to try and determine if your current injectors are maxed and how big of an upgrade you would need based on how much HP those injectors are supposed to support... but it's still not the most accurate way. I still think you need to see the actual pulse width. I was running 8psi of boost and making 235whp on my STOCK 22.5 lb/hr injectors... pulse width in the 26-28ms range at redline so they were very close to maxed out but hadn't locked open yet and wasn't getting any KR either amazingly...

... and according the the calculations on RC engineering I wasn't supposed to be able to make that much power with those size injectors. Even playing around with different BSFC's since I don't know the true volumetric efficiency with the blower, it still said I was over 90% duty cycle and shouldn't have been making that much power. That was counting flow change for fuel pressure increase as well. Anyway my point is nothing beats scanning. No guessing as to what it's doing. And having an injector with at least 30% more flow than needed is a good idea.

It shouldn't be that hard. There was a guy from Canada on the gagt.com forum who ran a 13.9 with a NA 3400. He had heads/cam/headers, larger injectors, tuned pcm, and was using drag radials I believe. You are starting out with an engine with much higher stock HP so I think it is definitely do-able. Just need a good launch and enough power.

Just curious, have you dyno'd the car in stock form to find the difference between the factory rated HP and actual WHP? I have found on the GA and several other GM fwd automatics that drivetrain loss was closer to 18%. Regardless, I don't know why you are quoting drivetrain loss for injector duration? Power lost through the transmission has nothing to do with injector pulse. You need to actually scan your computer to see what the injector pulse is. If you know what the injector flow rate is and your actual fuel pressure you can figure out how much HP they should support at max duty cycle. There are some good formula's here for injector sizing. rc engineering

Whether they are actually maxed out or not depends on several things like flow rate, max duty cycle, pulse width, and how high rpm you are running. Typically 80% is max unless you switch to a disc type injector, and once you start seeing injector pulses of 26ms or higher you should start thinking of larger injectors. Most stock injectors are pintle type and won't go over 80% duty cycle. Once you hit 90-95% they are locked open.

He said it would be difficult without changing some of the internals. So yeah, with cams/heads/injectors AND drag radials, I would fully expect this platform to be in the mid to upper 13's. I never dyno'd mine stock, but another guy with the LY7 did and he was around 26% drive train loss. The reason I'm quoting drive train loss when referring to injector duration is because horsepower calculations based on injector flow, duration and psi , calculates HP at the crank not at the wheel. So you need to be able to translate your whp to crank hp by considering the drive train loss to see if your duration is really maxed out or not.

As in my example, I know I'm running 223 whp. Depending on if that calculates into a 20% loss or a 25% loss determines if I'm at 275 crank or 297 crank. This directly impact the needed flow rate the injectors need to have. As it seems you know, since I know flow rate, psi, etc, I can estimate my crank hp but can't verify I'm out of duration unless I know the drive train loss.

I've been running over these calculators for damn near 3 months now. It's really boiled down to what my drive train loss is because, like I said before, if I'm at near 25% dtl, then I've maxed out these injectors due to duration being arond 98 - 99%. If I'm only at 20%, I should still, theoretically have a little duration left before I need to upgrade. We'll know this week if my hypothesis is correct or not.

' date='Jul 18 2010, 10:15 PM' post='33097']

Pontiac Enthusiast is very picky. I submitted for their reader's rides section, and they didn't even e-mail be back.

I wish they would stop overlooking cars without a V8.

Yeah, I hear ya. It took Performance Pontiac damn near 10 weeks to get back to me and it was with a "MAYBE if I hit 13's" response. Really though, that's all I need so I can write into Dunlop and tell them I've got advertising space should they provide me with the tires that get me to 13's

Best of luck. Doing 13's NA with a FWD car and on a stock internal setup is a big chore. Got any weight reduction going on?

I'm shooting for 13's whenever I get this bloody car tuned. School and work have been eating my time lately.

I've had my intake and heads done by John at 60*Inclusive, does some great work.

I honestly would love to see more V6 coverage. There was a guy with Camaro Performance mag or whatever that did a V6 project but would not listen to the input from the V6 community and went about doing things the wrong way or did mods with out a whole lot of research and who would toss them freebies...

Keep us posted.

Yes, 13's will be tough, BUT, I'm down to a 14.21 with all season street tires and the fastest I can get my 60' down to is 2.1 due to loss of traction if I pre-load anything higher than about 2,500 rpm. If I could get a set of Dunlop Star Spec's I'd be able to lower that by at least a .1 to .15 and be VERY close to 13's. My other problem is, we've determined she's out of fuel injector. With a 20% drive train loss, we're already looking at around 90% duration on these injectors. If you calculate a 25% drive train loss, which isn't unreasonable, I'm at 98 - 99% duration and thus, out of injector.

We have a guy that has ported the UIM and heads as well as underdrive pully, headers, etc and it's getting put back together this week. We'll know shortly there after if the stock fuel system is maxed out or not. Either way, we'll keep you posted.

I still see pontiac high performance and GM high tech performance in the book store magazine stands sometimes. Flip through them occasionally to ogel the F-bodies and 'vettes but they never feature much else besides those and older v8 muscle cars. Want to see a tech article or car feature on a V6 fwd or a GM 4cyl? Forget it... all you'll ever see, and rarely at that, is something on the grand prix GTP. And most of those articles I used to see where submitted by Chris White, who last I checked sold his GTP long ago and had a new GTO.

Well, either way, we've started the new website and already gaining some very qualified resources helping out. I also received word from Performance Pontiac that if I can get this thing to 13's naturally, they'd be interested in doing an article on it. So, we're making progress!

did you try G6P already? jus cuz...well, more members.

Yeah, didn't get a lot of help either unfortunately. But, that was several months ago, so who knows.

you wanted grip right? wasnt i helpful? isnt there any comments on the tires on theyre websites? or somewhere else?

Yeah, but as I said before, I was hoping for some first hand experience from here in a fwd application.

Toyo!

Well, that was helpful!!

John is already signed up to FullThrottleV6.com and 60degreeV6.com, his SN is Forced_Firebird, if you want to contact him that way. He does a lot of 60*V6 work for F-bodies and L-bodies (Berettas) but he's a helluva fabricator. I chat with him often on those two sites, IIRC, he is aware of our site here. But he's never signed up yet.

Awesome, thanks!

^^^not one in the style he was asking for.

hey I remember some one got these once and they looked amazing!!!!

18" FACTORY PONTIAC G6 OEM CHROME WHEELS RIMS TRADE

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/18-FACTORY-...=item5ad471b842

Nice find! I might have to consider doing this....

Let's see, probably $125 shipping x2 plus chroming...somewhere around $800 which is my budget (give or take...)

' date='May 5 2010, 10:27 AM' post='23588']

Check out 60inclusive. Talk with John, the owner. He's ALWAYS tinkering with these 60*V6 motors, he might be able to either help you out with some ported heads, or better yet, headers. I know the LY7 is DOHC, but this guy also tinkers with BMW engines.

I've already got full headers. I organized the project to get them done. As for ported heads, we're still doing research to find out if that really helps or not. A lot of flow dynamics to consider. But thanks for the contact, I'll be sure to get a hold of him and see if he's interested in joining the team!!

How but these...

I'm not sure on the black accent. I'd really like to set these apart from the paint scheme.

If not get these... I like the look of these spokes Vs. the ones you posted... Just my .02

Damn!! Those are sharp. Are those the C6 wheels?

Edit: Nevermind, I just found them. They are C5 replicas.

http://www.corvetteguys.com/c5-corvette-wheels-rims.html

Look for wheels with a 5x110 bolt pattern.

And chrome is insanely overrated. I hate my own stock chrome wheels.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those guys that thinks all chrome wheels are awesome. I'm extremely picky on chrome and the tastefulness of it. I find most chrome to be gaudy and over the top. That's why I'm having so much trouble finding exactly what I want to spend that kind of money on.

how do you plan on get to the 13 sec mark?

Well, I've already run several 14.3's and one potentially 14.21 (combined best launch that night with best run) on stock tires and that was at a density altitude of 1700.

Best way to hit 13's will be sticky tires, like the Dunlop Star Spec Z's, and a nice cool, dry night to bring my DA down. Using the time calculator on dragtimes.com, I've already run one 13 and several 14.0x.

I also am working with a guy to build a custom intake manifold and do some head modifications (not just a p&p).

I'm close. Very close. Now I just need to put it all together and make it happen.

Yeah, Since I have a black car and just a little bit of chrome on the headlights, I think the added accent with the wheels would look good. I've seen a similar setup with 350z's and G35 and it was sick. I like the deep wheel look too. Gah, why isn't this easier?

Dunlop Star Spec Z tires reviews

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/tires/dun...NT&pc=29146

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?ti...tnum=055VR5Z1SS

hope that helps

Thanks Jedi. I did see those before but was hoping to get some first hand experience from guys on here. Mainly, hoping for fwd traction feedback as that's really main my issue.

Thanks guys. I am getting in touch with the editor of Pontiac Enthusiast and I'll report back to let you know if we make any progress.

It's in my signature below

Ok, I've got some stock wheel damage and at $125 per wheel to fix it (x's 3 since I have three wheels damaged) that puts me up to $375 just to fix the stock GTP wheels. I'm thinking I'd rather put that toward all new rims that look better.

What I'm looking for is something in chrome, 5 spoke, 5x110 and preferably 18x8 but 18x7.5 will do too. I really like the C6 vette wheels:

Something along this line where each spoke narrows at toward the edge of the rim. Something that shows off the caliper job a little more :-) I also like the curbed 5 spoke that I've seen on some of the 350/370z's.

Thanks for any help you guys have in pointing me in the right direction. I just can't seem to find the right thing yet...

Has anybody tried the new Dunlop Star Spec Z tires? I've heard they are as sticky / stickier than some drag radials. I'm needing to pickup some off-the-line traction for the 1/4 runs. Thinking good traction could pick me up enough to touch 14.0 flat on my 1/4, but since I just spent $700 on tires, I don't really want to spend another $800 on a set of Star Spec's unless I know they are worth it.

Hey, doesn't anybody know if the Pontaic Performance magazine is still being published? Are there any other GM / Pontiac specific magazines anybody knows of? I'm looking for one that might be interested in doing an article on the efforts of becoming the first ever 13 second G6. Thanks!

Hey all. I'm looking to buy someone's HPTuner if they aren't using it anymore. I know I'll need to purchase my own credits, but we are looking for the rest if it's just sitting there collecting dust for ya.

Let me know.

1st - Inside Car - Rev

2nd - Outside Car - Idle & Rev

(Sorry, I was a little close so it came out a bit more tinny than normal)

So the LY7 was an option for GTPs? I thought it was only for the GXPs.

It was an option for 1 year, 2007 GTP. Then they moved over to the GXP's.