DrJones

Block was hot tanked. the deck was surfaced by only a few thousandths 2 or 3.  Heads milled .010 did not enlarge spring pockets they are stock. Head gaskets are Felpro FEL-8518PT. No sealer on head bolts. Pontiac do not need thread sealant since the bolts do not break into the water jackets, did lube them.  I did all the assembly myself. I'm feeling like there must be a blockage of some sort inside the block. I'm gona get my buddy's infrared thermometer and check different ares see if I can find any hot spots.

I'm really running out of ideas. Maybe the Gen3 just won't let enough air pass to satisfy.

Frosty, thanks for checking back. I did not find any hot spots on the block or heads. We have come to the conclusion that the gen3 body just will not let enough air to pass to counter the amount of heat that big engine creates. I'm sad to say but we're pulling the Pont 400 and dropping in a LQ9 from 07 Escalade with 4L80 trans. I have a 02 F150 that is going to get the Pont 400 & TH400. The F150 has plenty of open front grill to do the cooling job.

Block was hot tanked. the deck was surfaced by only a few thousandths 2 or 3.  Heads milled .010 did not enlarge spring pockets they are stock. Head gaskets are Felpro FEL-8518PT. No sealer on head bolts. Pontiac do not need thread sealant since the bolts do not break into the water jackets, did lube them.  I did all the assembly myself. I'm feeling like there must be a blockage of some sort inside the block. I'm gona get my buddy's infrared thermometer and check different ares see if I can find any hot spots.

I'm really running out of ideas. Maybe the Gen3 just won't let enough air pass to satisfy.

Two Lane try the file I just posted "1.ts"

Let me see about changing video format, brb

Two Lane, Use VLC player and you should get sound

I spend alot of time under the hood hence the need for the gauges.

Took it out shortly after the video, runs like a scalded dog but still getting hot. Was running 60 and temp climbed to 230. Shut it down and sat for 30 minutes before I headed back to the house. Almost 240 by the time I get back. SCARY

1.ts

new2_4673.mp4

Two Lane, pretty good.

The space between the shroud and rad core is somewhere around 1 inch.  Maybe not enough. The shroud came with the rad.

I should be done with the exhaust tonight. I ran out of Argon the other day and you know how bad the splatter is without any shielding gas....

Frosty, The shroud is aluminum and flat.

rad2.mp4

Two Lane, Good thought, the lines coming off the adapter go up and over the bell housing towards the left then under the steering shaft wrap around the inner fender well going towards the front of the car and the filter is mounted on the front of the fender well. You can see in this pic the right side exhaust is not close to the lines. But I may be on to something, it doesn't make a lot of sense but. I had to cut out my muffler in order to replace the gas tank. For S&Gs I fired it up without the muffler and it never went over 195. BackPressure to high? It didn't appear that way. New muffler and pipes. the engine was plenty responsive with that muffler. Just weird, gremlins I tell you gremlins. Anyway I'm redesigning the exhaust and using tube muffler instead of the rear mounted. TempOil.mp4

Two lane, I agree 220 is not overheating with a 16lbs cap. If it didnt rise above that I'd be ok with it but it keeps climbing and climbing, slowly. I haven't had a chance to install the 195 stat yet, maybe tonight. Charlotte would be a 11 hour round trip for me, I'd like to go but its not likely this year. Any way I had to replace the gas tank due to trash in it also installed an intank pump and aftermarket gauge sending unit. Hopefully I can take it for a spin tomorrow.

OldGuy, I made a mistake about the pulley its a 6 1/2 inch. As far as antifreeze goes it has 1.5 gallons and somewhere around 3-3.5 of water

Will update ya'll later

thx

Frosty, yes the lower valance and the air dam are both in place. I installed the FlowKooler pump and it still overheats, although not as fast. Previously it took about 20 minutes to reach 220, now its 35-40 minutes before it reaches critical temps. I have a 165 degree thermostat in right now and I am thinking the water never stops moving as the stat never closes, my thought is its not staying in the rad long enough to transfer the heat and cycles hot water right back into already hot engine. So I'm going to try a 195 stat hoping to slow down the flow. Still open to new ideas......?

Old Guy, when I say it is "rich on purpose" I don't mean it is so rich that it is blowing black smoke.. But more to the rich than to the lean side of things.  As far as the timing marks go, my timing cover does not have the casted marks and I didn't have a bolt on timing pointer. So what I did during assembly (heads off) is bring it to TDC then measured the degrees I could rotate the crank before the piston starts to move and then centered that, then marked the timing cover matching the mark on the balancer. I'm pretty sure I am with in 1 degree of being dead on TDC.

Back to overheating, I ordered a BRAND NEW water pump. I bit the bullet and bought a "FlowKooler" pump from Butler Performance. In my research these pumps come highly recommended. Tonight I'm hoping to have the time to install (honey do's pending) also picked up 165 thermostat. I'll update with the results after the install.

Fingers crossed............

Frosty, your right about the pulley that is something I didn't even think about. The crank pulley is stock and water pump pulley that is on now is 4" diameter and factory (if I'm not mistaken) is 6-1/2", So I'm over-driving as it is.     Yes new heater core to

indymanjoe, Lower hose isn't collapsing, its got the spring. Also I never seen one collapse at idle but I guess it could if it were old and soft

On 3/6/2017 at 4:13 PM, DrJones said:

cap off the rad and water level about 2-3 inches below the top you can watch the water jetting out of the core tubes not dribbling but imagine taking a hard piss, that is about equal to the pressure coming out of each core tube.

Rad inlet is hotter than outlet by about 25 degrees so there is some cooling happening just not enough to counter what the engine produces

 bad pump??  even though its new, that kinda defies logic due to the fact you can watch the water jetting out of the core tubes. But maybe not moving enough volume

Two Lane, nothing is to dumb IMO,   I have two gauges on it now, factory dash gauge and a Bosch mechanical they are about 7-10 degrees difference between the two.

hey guys, its taken a day to get back to ya.

Frosty, yes new flow plugs and divider plate, plate clearance set to a minimum

Two lane, your probably right its something stupid simple getting overlooked,    wtf is it   lol

Frosty, wouldn't over driving the water pump be like a band-aid? if it even worked.  please dont take any offense to that, I appreciate you throwing out ideas. that's why we're here, right?

Two lane, you mentioned something about a fresh engine post, I am interested in reading it. where can I find it? sorry if that is a dumb question

again thx for all your input, really

Guys thanks for taking the time to put thought into my problem

Fresh engine yes, maybe 10 hours

the air dams are in place

100% fans are moving air the correct direction

I did check for vac leaks, none. Also I have it running way rich on purpose

I don't see a lot of value in that burping funnel thingy. If air was trapped in a cavity I see no way that device would remove it any better than just taking your time purging. Not that I don't appreciate the idea because I do, thank you. Just being honest

New water pumps are not always the right water pumps, I think I'm leaning this way. Because I had the 8 bolt timing cover and pump on first and as we know did not cool as well as the 11 bolt.... BUT  the 8 bolt was cooling better than the 11 is now and without the 2 12inch fans pushing air. What gets me is with the cap off the rad and water level about 2-3 inches below the top you can watch the water jetting out of the core tubes not dribbling but imagine taking a hard piss, that is about equal to the pressure coming out of each core tube.

Maybe I should try a belt driven fan and shroud...?

I don't know

35 years I have never had one beat me up like this one is

Thanks guys

The possible trapped air bubble how would you recommend "burning it out"?   I've seen the temp go up to 240 at its highest. And it was spewing water from the overflow bottle.      I have not let that happen again.

Fans are not in contention with each other. The 12 inch fans on the outside are pushing air into the front of the radiator and the fans on the engine side of the rad are pushing towards the engine.

Read that timing could have an affect on Pontiacs. In my 35 years of knuckle busting I haven't seen timing make that much of a rise in temps before. But then again this is my first shot at a performance Pontiac.

Man this will bum a man out,

Oh yea, running out of hair....!

Hey two lane

Im in NC also, Moyck

You?

I love how the Iphone flipped all my pix

Frosty, valid questions..
 
No coolant leaks and my oil capacity is 7 quarts due to remote oil filter and it is not low
 
As it stands now I am running the fans manually. Under normal conditions the 10 inch pulling fans come on at 190, thermostat opens at 180 and the 12 inch fans are manual controlled for now, ultimately the 12 inchers will come on at 195 if and when needed.
 
Idling at 220 degrees oil pressure 20psi

Other test I performed,

I forgot to mention my radiator is hot from top to bottom so I know there is no blockage and water is flowing through it. Besides it new.

Also this, removed the upper radiator hose pointed it to the ground and started feeding the top of the radiator water from a garden hose. Making sure the rad was full at all times, started the engine let run after about 5-6 minutes water started trickling out of the hose pointing to the ground within another minute or so I had full flow dumping to the ground. Another minute or so the flow diminished to a trickle again. This cycle continued every minute or so, telling me that the thermostat was doing it's job as intended. I let this continue for a good 30 minutes just to see what was going to happen and the temp averaged 180 the whole time. Of course it dipped to 160ish and rose to 185ish give or take a few degrees.

I am baffled as to what the problem is, everything seam in order.  Ideas? Anyone? Anyone?

IMG_4598.MOV

I need help figuring out why my 400 is overheating

It is a 1987 gen3 Fire-bird Formula (reFormulated) with a 1971 Pontiac 400 block casting #481988 bored .030 over with Keith Black dish pistons, crank has been turned .020/.020. Rotating assembly has been balanced, Number 16 heads with new valves and springs, 72cc cambers. Howard's CAM in.482 ex.470, true dual exhaust, new water pump with cast impeller, divider plate clearance set as close as possible to impeller. New 4 core aluminum radiator with 2 10 inch electric fans pulling air and 2 12 inch electric fans pushing air. A/C condenser removed to allow maximum air flow. Removed thermostat, still overheating. Installed a flow restrictor hoping the water was flowing to fast through the radiator for efficient heat transfer. No still HOT. New 180 degree thermostat. With each change it continued to overheat, although the time it takes to overheat varied. I really hope someone here has an idea what I am facing.