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foreign vs american discussion


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chaosweaver- yes they outsource, but to what extent? there comes a point where its just not an american car anymore. especially if its built in SOUTH KOREA

The reason being is because GM owns Daewoo. They build a lot of the small cars for GM, aside from the Cobalt. The upcoming Chevy Cruze is a Daewoo chassis. That type of outsourcing saves GM huge amounts of money in R&D. We only get the Aveo, but in the Middle East and European markets, GM has quite a few cars built by Daewoo and Suzuki. It's all apart of the business, and the profits come back to GM regardless.

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It is suprising how many vehicles are made as a cross between companies and how many times through co-operation that there are parts used by other companies.

The Isuzu Hombre was just an S10 and now is a Canyon but in turn they were the chief developers of the Duramax Diesels I believe.

Suzuki makes one of the SUV just in Ingersol Ontario. I think it is the Equinox but do not quote me on that.

Hell I had a 87 Nova before my Vibe and it was built at NUMMI with Corolla parts. Three engines and two transmissions in 3 years I sold it to my boss.

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  • 3 weeks later...

There is no discussion really, they are substandard in safety, performance, and now even gas mileage. I don't mind so much foreign cars as I hate Japanese cars. I am so sick of these freaking morons with their 1.6L rusted shitcan trying to tell me American cars are crap. These morons invented the term "ricer". Then these fools try to act like gods gift to performance. Nothing could be further from the truth, Honda has never produced a single engine on a production car with more than 300 hp. Gm did this in the 50s, I'm not impressed.

More than that I hate the honda enthusiast. Don't sit here and tell me "well we are all into modding cars and loving them and bla bla bla". No its not the same, my car wasnt designed by a 4 foot asian man. My car doesn't sound like shit. These morons invented distasteful modding. Huge fart cannons, shitty sounding exhaust, primered body kits, stupid ass wheels, retarded wings, japanese writing, stickers for parts you dont have, driving around with underbody lights on. I'm not the freaking tool bouncing off my rev limiter in a parking lot because I think its cool. I share NOTHING in common with this type of individual.

I'd love to put every Civic Hatch in a crusher to remove them from being such eyesores on public roads. I would leave one left though for society, as a warning to never make the same mistake again. Also if this jap crap is built so awesome, why is it that every single week when I show up to the local car meets (that have about 100 cars), I have a 21 year old car (with no rust I might add) and its the oldest thing there? I mean if these cars are so invincible for all time why isnt there any there my age or older? Simple they aren't made as well, and even if they were who the hell wants a 20 year old honda? They are disposable cars that aren't worth preserving or restoring. The only thing they are good for is recycling like a old soda can because they had no passion when they were designed. To simply build a car to get from place to place means nothing and its forgettable instantly. When's the last time you walked in a parking lot and saw a 20 year old honda (or any year for that matter) that takes your breath away? I can't think of a single time.....ever. I do however get that feeling whenever I walk out to my TTA.

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Nothing could be further from the truth, Honda has never produced a single engine on a production car with more than 300 hp.

The 3.7L J37A4 puts out 305HP, to name one, and the rest of the J37 family puts out 300hp.

No its not the same, my car wasnt designed by a 4 foot asian man.

Don't be racist or plug into stereotypes, you won't endear anyone to your opinion or your person.

These morons invented distasteful modding.

Honda (or any other import auto company) didn't invent distasteful modding, nor did their design teams. Aftermarket parts companies did.

And as a response overall to your post, Rodimus_Prime, this thread is meant to be an intellectual debate versus the oh so common flame war that occurs on other forums. Don't diminish that with an outrageous, heavily biased, and un-researched post.

As far as my opinion is concerned, I am no big fan of imports, especially Hondas as far as that goes, and I am a huge fan of GM. I have been in two collisions (not the driver in both) in two Hondas, and was knocked out for over a minute both times, and both accidents were in <35mph incidents. One was in a late 80s, early 90s Accord, the other was in a late 90s CR-V; I was in the back seat for both. In an accident at 50MPH in my 89 Camaro, I was neither knocked out or very busted up, aside from a concussion. Safety is a major and valid concern for most Hondas, as well as other imports, and something I'd agree they need to work on.

Do I like the "fart cannons," Buick ventiports stuck on everywhere, underbody lighting, and all the other crazy stuff "ricers" tend to do? No. But I recognize people who mod their cars in this way represent a cross-section that is highly-noticed and ridiculed, but mostly ignored. If you can't ignore them, you need to learn how. There's no point in giving them attention as that's all they're looking for.

As far as performance, I know plenty of people in this area who don't rice out their imports, and mod them for performance. They are some of the fastest, slickest, and hardest-cornering cars I have ever seen and I give them their proper kudos.

If you can't honor somebody for the work they've put into their car because of the badges on the front and back of their car, then you need to re-evaluate your common sense.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Tunicwriter, thank you for covering the bases. you summed it up very well, but i have to add to it a bit... since i apparently started this LOL

There is no discussion really, they are substandard in safety, performance, and now even gas mileage. So just because Chevy FINALLY caught up with imports in fuel economy, imports are now somehow substandard in that department?? and when you say substandard in performance im guessing you are ONLY speaking about straightline performance... which isnt the goal of the carmaker in the first place. japanese people dont have penis envy with the size of the engines. I don't mind so much foreign cars as I hate Japanese cars. I am so sick of these freaking morons with their 1.6L rusted shitcan trying to tell me American cars are crap. Ive seen just as many rusted american shitcans. These morons invented the term "ricer". Then these fools try to act like gods gift to performance. Nothing could be further from the truth, Honda has never produced a single engine on a production car with more than 300 hp. Gm did this in the 50s, I'm not impressed. Honda was the first to break 100 HP per liter in a production car in 1989, and as tunic said, the j37 DOES exceed 300 hp. did you ever stop to think that the car doesnt NEED 300 hp? did you consider that the car is lighter and doesnt need that much power, not to mention that putting over 250 hp to the front wheels is silly? at that point it doesnt matter WHO made it, the front wheels cant be expected to turn the car AND deliver that much power without losing GRIP.

More than that I hate the honda enthusiast. Don't sit here and tell me "well we are all into modding cars and loving them and bla bla bla". No its not the same, my car wasnt designed by a 4 foot asian man. If it were, it would have been a better car. My car doesn't sound like shit. Neither does mine. These morons invented distasteful modding. They may have invented it but Americans have the patent. Huge fart cannons, shitty sounding exhaust, primered body kits, stupid ass wheels, retarded wings, japanese writing, stickers for parts you dont have, driving around with underbody lights on. Thats not so much a sentence but a list of things that i see most AMERICAN ricers doing, whether their car is AMERICAN or JAPANESE. matter of fact i see more NEONS and FORD RANGERS with your list there than japanese cars. I'm not the freaking tool bouncing off my rev limiter in a parking lot because I think its cool. I share NOTHING in common with this type of individual. I'm not that tool either. I dont share anything with this type of individual you describe either, but i am a proud Honda enthusiast. You are talking about ricers, not honda enthusiasts. these two are not interchangeable as you seem to think.

I'd love to put every Civic Hatch in a crusher to remove them from being such eyesores on public roads. I'd like to put every soccer mom's suburban and excursion and hummer h2/h3 in a crusher and remove them from being such eyesores AND being a hazard on the road. but if you crushed every civic hatch in america, there would probably be no gas left to fill your american car, so watch what you wish for. I would leave one left though for society, as a warning to never make the same mistake again. Again, this would apply better to america and the SUV. Also if this jap crap is built so awesome, why is it that every single week when I show up to the local car meets (that have about 100 cars), I have a 21 year old car (with no rust I might add) and its the oldest thing there? uhh maybe because you dont attend classic japanese car meets? those of us with classic japanese cars dont usually go to those sorts of shows. but when we do, we stand out like i would imagine your car does. I mean if these cars are so invincible for all time why isnt there any there my age or older? Again, they are hiding from you apparently, because i see them all the time. most of the time with 250k or 350k on the clock and sometimes with the original engine. Just because most people treated them like crap, beat them to death, and sent most of them to the crusher does NOT in any way mean they dont last. like anything if you want to keep it, you have to take care of it. MY honda is from 87 and has like ONE rust spot behind a bumper. do many classic japanese cars rust easily? yes, because of the metal they used then. does that make ALL of them shit? No. thats like saying every arby's restaurant is crappy because one of them shorted you a sandwich one time. Simple they aren't made as well, and even if they were who the hell wants a 20 year old honda? Lots of people. Older hondas are of the resellable cars in existence and are well sought after because of their excellent handling and ease of motor swapping. They are used extensively as race cars in autocross, road racing, and even drag racing (altho i personally dont think they should be used for drag or any good as drag cars) They are also sought out because of their amazing UNRIVALED fuel economy. in 1984 the CRX 1.3 DX got 51 city 67 hwy. IN 1984! with a CARBURETOR! GM made 300 hp in the 50's? ok so when did they start getting 30+mpg? like only the last 15 years? They are disposable cars that aren't worth preserving or restoring. The only thing they are good for is recycling like a old soda can because they had no passion when they were designed. Thats why older hondas are bought out of junkyards even in the poorest of shape to be rebuilt, and 10 years young american cars LITTER the junkyard only to be crushed when no one gets any parts off them because people dont even want to fix that KIND of car. Obviously you have never had a Pontiac sunbird or Cavi... THEN you will know the true meaning of "disposable car". They were built only to be cheap to put together. they make them so hard to work on that its easier, cheaper, and more gain to just buy a new one and junk the old one. To simply build a car to get from place to place means nothing and its forgettable instantly. When's the last time you walked in a parking lot and saw a 20 year old honda (or any year for that matter) that takes your breath away? true, not many hondas are what you call "breathtaking" by looking at them, but i know plenty of them that are "breaktaking" and definitely unforgettable when you ride in or drive them. outward appearances arent always everything. That being said, i HAVE seen a "breathtaking" 20 year old honda and it was clean and mostly stock. I can't think of a single time.....ever. I do however get that feeling whenever I walk out to my TTA. Well i am really glad you love your car and all, and im sure its a real nice car, but its just your opinion. to me, your car is just another trans-am mulletmobile. to you, my 20 year old honda is a soda can. to each his own. but if you can't appreciate TASTEFUL modification to any car, despite its heritage, then you are a car biggot and shouldnt call yourself a car guy. you should call yourself an american car enthusiast. that way we may stereotype you and your mulletmobile as redneck, despite the fact that you may have a very nice clean tastefully modified mulletmobile.

there is one thing i really gotta ask you though. there is always two things i seem to find in common with import haters. the first is ignorance of facts, and abundance of misinformation about imports. you have obviously already proved your lack of knowledge about imports. its ok tho, because it wont be on the test. we dont expect you to know everything... but if you dont really know, its always better to keep your mouth shut and listen than talk about something like you do and say a bunch of mindless ricer hater drivel. remember, we honda enthusiasts hate ricers too.

the second thing, and the one i must ask you about, is your level of experience.

How old are you?

How many cars have you driven total? how many domestic? how many import?

how many cars have you worked on? domestic, import?

how many well modded or properly built imports have you driven or ridden in?

i'll of course let you answer, but ill tell you the most typical answer i get.

"im 19, ive driven and wrecked 3 domestics, now driving a 4th. ive never worked on a car at all, let alone my own, and ive never even SEEN a well modded or properly built honda in my life, and wouldn't know one if it bit me on the ass."

now that was me stereotyping a bit, but im not stretching the truth much if at all. most of the time i hear "hondas suck" or "imports sucK" its from young kids who have never had one, never driven one, and only been exposed to the RICER side of imports. they usually have NEVER worked on a car, but will tell you that imports are hard to work on because "thats what he heard".

I myself started as one of these people. i grew up loving 16 foot long 8 foot wide chevy land yachts and hating the "stupid honda ricers" even hating hondas themselves. RIGHT UP TO THE DAY I DROVE ONE. i only had to pull it out of a parking space to instantly realize the MUCH higher quality and feel of a precisely built japanese car.

you say imports are soul-less, and for the most part you are right. to have a soul, one must be human. and to be human, one must make mistakes. its what makes things interesting, things screwing up. thats why american cars are usually chock full of soul (and sitting on the side of the road) while the import soullessly clicks on like your grandmother's sewing machine.

that being said, i believe my CRX to be quite soulful. you need only to rev the little 1.5 to 7000 rpm to feel its eagerness to please and its urgency to get up and go. the tires squeal only slightly while you take a 25mph corner at 65...as if to squeak out "i can't believe we're really doing this... what happened to the laws of physics???" it rotates quickly and confidently with a "point and click" attitude about where you're trying to put it, and only seems to get better the harder you push it.

my 20 year old CRX has soul, and if you dont believe me, come let me take you for a ride and i guarantee you will go home with some healthy respect if you dont just come home with a new OLD CRX

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  • Founders

Cut back on the name calling a bit guys...

Anywho honestly what your saying Kaymo I have to agree some kids have no experience and don't know what they're saying let alone have any experience working on domestics or imports. My feeling is I have worked/driven my fair share of both, not saying it could match those of people older than me but I've worked on a lot of years. 1969 Camaro, 2002 Camaro, 2006 G6, 1981 (i think) Camaro, 1995 Monte Carlo, 1980s Mustangs (my friends dad has a collection), I'd say these are my highlights of domestics I've worked on but there's also the Ford Tauruses and things of that nature. My import really isn't as impressive but 2004 Toyota Rav4, 2000s Honda CRV, 1985 Toyota MR-2, 1990ish Toyota Supra, Lexus some number, some other imports here or there that people have asked me to work on.

Out of my imports list I think the only car that impressed me is the MR-2 because it was built from scratch from my friend and I helped with about 40% of it. That really is the only reason it impressed me, I mean it impressed me enough to go look for Pontiac Fiero :lol2: but I mean I just don't get that feeling from working on those cars as I do domestic. Imports I wouldn't say are harder or easier to work on because well the majority of my imports, besides the supra and some others, have been smaller cars with small engine bays (or in the case of MR-2, WTF how do I get my hand remotely to that!!). The harder or easier thing will always depend on the car, not the manufacture. Just like the G6 is a bitch because its FWD and a TA is a lot easier.

To the driving, I just get the opposite feeling as you do kaymo. The cars just feel like shit to me compared to even my Monte Carlo. I know I've said this before but they just feel wrongly built from stock. I've driven and have rode in a lot of imports and none have made me say you know what I like this. It's always wow this looks cheaply made, the ride is rough, the idle is comparable to my seat giving me a back massage, etc...

It could be my basis but in reality I think it really is American is going to triumph foreign real soon. The bankrupt thing for GM has already turned them around (although losing some Pontiac customers by getting rid of it) and they are actually converting some of the import drivers.

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another issue is many people base their opinions on a car that is in poor condition, or broke ON them. people do have to take into consideration the way these cars are treated. american or import, treat it badly and it will break on you.

i will admit i have been in a few imports that were pretty bad. almost every time it was a BEATEN to DEATH car that never received proper maintanance. some are just crappy cars though. older nissans ring that bell...

i will also admit that most american cars ive driven were older. when i say older i mean 90's and older. i know the newer ones have jumped leaps and bounds, but it took them forever and a bankruptcy to get there.

i believe japanese cars have progressed much faster, and much further. none of the american cars ive driven had the steering feel i've grown to expect from a honda. zero play. a honda feels like a sharp scalpel, while a domestic feels like a dull machete. yes a CRX will beat you up a little bit, but its not a caddy. it wasnt made to float across potholes, it was made to zip around them. and in stock form, it does it beautifully. add a sway bar and bushing or two, and you are getting close to lotus handling. im sure there are american cars that handle... i just havent driven one that didnt require careful planning to get round that next bend..

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  • Founders

My main judgments were conducted on my sisters brand new (well in 2005) Toyota Rav4 :lol2: and a Acura SUV (forget the name) but I'm pretty sure that thing was brand new as well when I rode in it cause of the people I was with were rich, as well as a Lexus and others. I don't have much experience with Honda other than a few here or there so I'm not really knocking them on drive-ability but really am knocking Toyota. I just hate the Rav4 my sister got maybe its a lemon but like I've said that thing is rough and idles horribly plus has gone through 60x more maintenance than my year older (2006) G6. I do agree taking care of your car will make it last as long as possible no matter the manufacture and my sister has taken care of that car and consulting me as well as her car buff bf. Its just I think that thing stock was a POS and I guess that is what she gets for not taking me with her to get it.

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i dont like newer toyotas. they took the soul out and then made them crappy and flimsy. the new GT celica is slower than my old 4door 88 accord LXI. thats fuel injected and power everything including sunroof shes a fat girl, and STILL much faster.

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Alright I'll bite

the second thing, and the one i must ask you about, is your level of experience.

How old are you? 29

How many cars have you driven total? how many domestic? how many import? domestic at least 20 something prob more, about 5 imports, most of the time with almost any of the imports ive drove or even sat behind the wheel in I dont fit. I'm not a huge guy im 5'9 with some muscle and bigger feet. I was in a scion Tc about a year ago, couldnt even fit my foot on the gas because the brake pedal was so close next to it, my foot got stuck.

how many cars have you worked on? domestic, import? domestic well over 50-60, import about 10

how many well modded or properly built imports have you driven or ridden in? about 10

I will say that most of the Honda stuff I have worked with which is earlier generation integras are extremely easy to work on. Quality I would strongly disagree with, even down to the bolts which are smaller and made of substandard metal. Everything rusts so easily, even the wires are puny and low grade.

As far as cars laying on the side of the road, I would say the majority is imports, at least where I live. A CRX isnt a car its a go kart with a roof. Not to mention ugly as sin. The only thing that exceeds those horrible things is the awful noise that it makes called an engine. I've had a personal disgust for these cars prob longer than you have been alive.

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ok so you definately have more experience with cars than most people who scream "i hate you honda ricers" but obviously you have worked on and driven many more domestics than imports.

i am a couple inches taller than you, but im pretty damn skinny, and i havent had any trouble fitting in imports. my CRX can fit a person over 6ft. you are right about the scion pedals tho. im a size 12 and my foot got stuck trying to drive one. that being said, a scion is a new toyoda which i already said i dont like

i agree about early integras, but i dont know where you are getting the lack of quality thing from. in my 94 sunbird, GM blindly screwed self drilling screws directly into the metal to attach interior panels. i dont know how long it took to get all the screws back in just because i had to pretty much guess where the holes were. interior panels in hondas have pre cut holes for plastic inserts for all the interior screws, and everything always lines right back up after you take it apart. my sunbird took much massaging to get all the panels back in, and any pop in panels were still LOOSE.

also i dont see how you say the bolts are substandard metal. yes honda uses 10mm bolts for TONS of things,but they are NOT substandard metal!! even the tiny 10mm bolts are GRADE 8 and STRONG AS HELL. i havent seen any of those bolts actually rust. there are some bolts on hondas that do, such as exhaust bolts (which rust on every make of car) hondas dont rust nearly as fast as some other japanese makes and even SOME american cars. i will admit they are a tad thin and usually end up with clogged sunroof drains and rusty rear fender flares, but EVERYTHING rusts so easily is an over-exaggeration or you are in the north where everything rusts. and the wires arent great, but ive seen plenty of honda wiring harnesses that held up mUCH better than some GM and other american make's engine bay harnesses.

a CRX is a go cart with a roof AND DOORS but yeah its basically a little tin can with a pocket rocket motor. you can try and talk crap about its little 1.5, but that motor is a badass little engine that in stock form allowed the CRX to beat the v6 fiero. there is one member of the CRX forums with a boosted ew d15 pushing 230 hp and over 230 ft lbs of torque. you cant apply a couple of ricer exhausts to EVERY import. its the choice of the owner to put a fart can on it which as i previously stated, i normally see on domestics more than imports.

i doubt you started hating these cars when you were six, but if you did then i gotta say you need anger management... thats too young to start hatin!!!

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