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Nice! How was the trip?

It was fun. :)

Sent from my mind using telekinesis.

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Wasn't a 4X4 or ???? I need 4X/ext cab. After 6yrs and getting my dreamcar this close, wouldn't trade it even if I did stand to make some $$$ on it. MINE........... At least 8 guys standin around and all freaked when I hooked my jumpbox to the hot side of the coil for a lil extra fouled plug boost, and it fired right off. Back to [] 1 on the damn carb. Ran fine on the way home and fired right up with no fuel leaking 3 times in the drive way. Musta been a stuck float.


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I changed the spark plugs in the Avalanche after 78k miles on Sunday. Replaced the E3s with Autolite Iriduim plugs. I'll post the pics later. We've been dodging severe weather since late Monday night.


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Why didn't you get AC Delcos? GM engines are fickle with anything but AC Delco and NGKs.

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Why didn't you get AC Delcos? GM engines are fickle with anything but AC Delco and NGKs.

I've never heard this before... At lease not with the LSx guys.

Sent from my mind using telekinesis.

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The simple answer is I won't give NGK my money quite frankly. I grew up in Flint, Michigan, former home of the AC Spark Plug. My first job out of college was with AC Spark Plug division of GM. We made over 1 million spark plugs a day back then. I still buy Flint-made AC products like plugs, air, gas, and oil filters, at swap meets for the Lemans and Trans Am every chance I get. Today, the entire division is now a cement slab except for 2 buildings thanks to Delphi's bankruptcy and one more is closing permanently in November now. Now AC Delco is just a marketting cover brand from GM and nothing more. So buying their stuff is not the same for me anymore..



I, for one, won't give the nippers (NGK) my money, I want American made. E3 is American company but the plugs are made in China. Second, E3 and AC Delco iriduims are expensive at over $6/plug. Bousch is German. ACCEL was a little too pricey for my tastes. A lot of other guys I won't even consider.



Turns out Autolite is owned by Fram (of Canada) but the plugs themselves are made in Mexico. Damn it. So next time it will be Champion - they are owned by Federal-Mogul and still made in the US. I have Champions in my lawn mower, snowblower and leafblower. The Autolite plugs are iriduim so I am not too worried about them being incompatible and they were cheaper than the AC Delcos versions plus Autolite has a rebate going on, making them an even better deal after the rebate.



I use to be the biggest "buy AC Delco" guy you ever saw. However, with GM and Delphi's bankruptcies, Delphi closed 21 of 28 (now soon to be 22 of 28) plants in the US that use to produce those AC Delco parts, I am not a believer anymore. I was seriously pissed to see both the AC Delco and NGK logos on my Avalanches' plugs when I replaced them several years ago with the E3s. So I am a lot more fussy on what products I buy and where they are made. I just as soon keep my money on this continent (at least since I screwed up on the Autolites being made in Mexico).



Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing NGK plugs, it is simply my opinion and money. GM has globally outsourced these parts to suppliers other than those manufacturers in the US. That is their right. That does not mean that I have to purchase those parts unless it is a warranty related issue and my truck is well out of any extended warranty at this point.


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I've never heard this before... At lease not with the LSx guys.

Sent from my mind using telekinesis.

What part haven't you heard? That AC Delco plugs in the LSx line are really made by NGK or someone like me would think to buy something other the AC Delco?

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Honestly, I don't really care where the plugs are made...GM engines don't like certain plugs. ESPECIALLY Champion and Bosch. Hell, Champions are garbage for the most part. Bad quality and I've never seen any good results with them...even in the Chryslers they come in.

Whether you like it or not, NGK makes probably the best plug out there, right up there with Denso. Hence why manufacturers are using them as OEM. GM engines are sensitive to what plugs you throw at them, in general I've only seen them take nice to NGKs and AC Delcos. Autolites they tend to burn out quick (thanks to the waste spark ignition system in most GMs now) and I've heard and seen horror shows from Bosch and Champions in GM motors.

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The simple answer is I won't give NGK my money quite frankly. I grew up in Flint, Michigan, former home of the AC Spark Plug. My first job out of college was with AC Spark Plug division of GM. We made over 1 million spark plugs a day back then. I still buy Flint-made AC products like plugs, air, gas, and oil filters, at swap meets for the Lemans and Trans Am every chance I get. Today, the entire division is now a cement slab except for 2 buildings thanks to Delphi's bankruptcy and one more is closing permanently in November now. Now AC Delco is just a marketting cover brand from GM and nothing more. So buying their stuff is not the same for me anymore..

I, for one, won't give the nippers (NGK) my money, I want American made. E3 is American company but the plugs are made in China. Second, E3 and AC Delco iriduims are expensive at over $6/plug. Bousch is German. ACCEL was a little too pricey for my tastes. A lot of other guys I won't even consider.

Turns out Autolite is owned by Fram (of Canada) but the plugs themselves are made in Mexico. Damn it. So next time it will be Champion - they are owned by Federal-Mogul and still made in the US. I have Champions in my lawn mower, snowblower and leafblower. The Autolite plugs are iriduim so I am not too worried about them being incompatible and they were cheaper than the AC Delcos versions plus Autolite has a rebate going on, making them an even better deal after the rebate.

I use to be the biggest "buy AC Delco" guy you ever saw. However, with GM and Delphi's bankruptcies, Delphi closed 21 of 28 (now soon to be 22 of 28) plants in the US that use to produce those AC Delco parts, I am not a believer anymore. I was seriously pissed to see both the AC Delco and NGK logos on my Avalanches' plugs when I replaced them several years ago with the E3s. So I am a lot more fussy on what products I buy and where they are made. I just as soon keep my money on this continent (at least since I screwed up on the Autolites being made in Mexico).

Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing NGK plugs, it is simply my opinion and money. GM has globally outsourced these parts to suppliers other than those manufacturers in the US. That is their right. That does not mean that I have to purchase those parts unless it is a warranty related issue and my truck is well out of any extended warranty at this point.

Did I ever mention I love your ramblings? :D

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The simple answer is I won't give NGK my money quite frankly. I grew up in Flint, Michigan, former home of the AC Spark Plug. My first job out of college was with AC Spark Plug division of GM. We made over 1 million spark plugs a day back then. I still buy Flint-made AC products like plugs, air, gas, and oil filters, at swap meets for the Lemans and Trans Am every chance I get. Today, the entire division is now a cement slab except for 2 buildings thanks to Delphi's bankruptcy and one more is closing permanently in November now. Now AC Delco is just a marketting cover brand from GM and nothing more. So buying their stuff is not the same for me anymore..



I, for one, won't give the nippers (NGK) my money, I want American made. E3 is American company but the plugs are made in China. Second, E3 and AC Delco iriduims are expensive at over $6/plug. Bousch is German. ACCEL was a little too pricey for my tastes. A lot of other guys I won't even consider.



Turns out Autolite is owned by Fram (of Canada) but the plugs themselves are made in Mexico. Damn it. So next time it will be Champion - they are owned by Federal-Mogul and still made in the US. I have Champions in my lawn mower, snowblower and leafblower. The Autolite plugs are iriduim so I am not too worried about them being incompatible and they were cheaper than the AC Delcos versions plus Autolite has a rebate going on, making them an even better deal after the rebate.



I use to be the biggest "buy AC Delco" guy you ever saw. However, with GM and Delphi's bankruptcies, Delphi closed 21 of 28 (now soon to be 22 of 28) plants in the US that use to produce those AC Delco parts, I am not a believer anymore. I was seriously pissed to see both the AC Delco and NGK logos on my Avalanches' plugs when I replaced them several years ago with the E3s. So I am a lot more fussy on what products I buy and where they are made. I just as soon keep my money on this continent (at least since I screwed up on the Autolites being made in Mexico).



Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing NGK plugs, it is simply my opinion and money. GM has globally outsourced these parts to suppliers other than those manufacturers in the US. That is their right. That does not mean that I have to purchase those parts unless it is a warranty related issue and my truck is well out of any extended warranty at this point.






I'm really fickle about what I use with the Phoenix. STP Air Filter. FRAM Oil Filter. Valvoline/Carquest Oil (Ashland). Champion Sparkplugs. I will NOT have it any other way.


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im picky on what i put in my car also, only mobile 1 syn oil, mobile 1 oil filter, autolite spark plugs, i had e3 and they were utter crap,


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Did I ever mention I love your ramblings? :D

I am glad I amuse you. :)

Seriously, I try to explain my rationale to you guys when I say something that I am certain someone while wonder "well where the hell did that come from?" I am not going to dispute anything that Chaos is saying. He is basing that on his experience. I am basing my purchases on mine. I have not heard that Champion and Boush are crap, in fact I've heard the opposite about Champion. I have stayed away from them simply from my old "buy AC Delco" days. I have been forced to re-think that with the closing of the Delphi plants and what replacement parts I get.

Bottom line is this - when its your money, you are going to spend it where you want. I choose to try to keep most of it here. I know that won't always be the case for everything, but I'd rather try patronize US and North American companies first.

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Amen Frosty. Definitely agree on spending your money where you want. I have cases like that for anything and sometimes its not as raitional as Id just rather give money to USA or NA companies :lol:

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I can understand the mindset of buying US made products, but seeing how everything is just globalized as far as sources of manufacturing, it's a little crazy to put source of assembly over the quality and performance of the item you're buying.

I've always wanted what works best/OEM parts for whatever car I own, whether it was my old 89 Toyota Tercel, my 95 Dodge Intrepid, my 03 Pontiac Grand Am and my current 05 Honda Accord.

I bought Champion coppers for my 95 Intrepid back when I had it still, with brand new wires. After 1500 miles it's performance got sluggish, gas mileage went down and even had backfiring issues. Two plugs fouled out and one plug cracked. I tossed in a set of NGK V-power plugs and it was like night and day. 70,000 miles and no issues until somebody hit and wrecked me on the highway.

Now, I realize NGK makes the majority of AC Delco's spark plugs, but their iridium plugs are some of the best on the market. GM mainly went with that design when they had the "waste spark" ignition system used in the majority of their cars after 1999. My Grand Am had it, it needed an Iridium. AC Delco/NGKs were used from OEM, so that's what I stuck with.

On the Grand Am forums, many stories of bad performance and premature plug failures with Bosch, Champion, Autolite and E3s. The ignition systems are too strong for most plugs to handle. Temperature range is a big factor as well, pick the wrong one and again, either they'll wear out quick or fail prematurely.

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What part haven't you heard? That AC Delco plugs in the LSx line are really made by NGK or someone like me would think to buy something other the AC Delco?

The fact that they are the only ones good for GM engines. I've heard of a bunch of guys running different plugs in LSx engines without a difference.

Sent from my mind using telekinesis.

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I can understand the mindset of buying US made products, but seeing how everything is just globalized as far as sources of manufacturing, it's a little crazy to put source of assembly over the quality and performance of the item you're buying.

I've always wanted what works best/OEM parts for whatever car I own, whether it was my old 89 Toyota Tercel, my 95 Dodge Intrepid, my 03 Pontiac Grand Am and my current 05 Honda Accord.

I bought Champion coppers for my 95 Intrepid back when I had it still, with brand new wires. After 1500 miles it's performance got sluggish, gas mileage went down and even had backfiring issues. Two plugs fouled out and one plug cracked. I tossed in a set of NGK V-power plugs and it was like night and day. 70,000 miles and no issues until somebody hit and wrecked me on the highway.

Now, I realize NGK makes the majority of AC Delco's spark plugs, but their iridium plugs are some of the best on the market. GM mainly went with that design when they had the "waste spark" ignition system used in the majority of their cars after 1999. My Grand Am had it, it needed an Iridium. AC Delco/NGKs were used from OEM, so that's what I stuck with.

On the Grand Am forums, many stories of bad performance and premature plug failures with Bosch, Champion, Autolite and E3s. The ignition systems are too strong for most plugs to handle. Temperature range is a big factor as well, pick the wrong one and again, either they'll wear out quick or fail prematurely.

While I agree with your first paragraph in general, I've been reading more and more studies that state basically that American manufacturers may not yet be totally on par with overseas manufacturers in terms of costs (read Asian manufacturers) due to either currency or wage differences (or both), American made products are proving to be every bit as good or better in quality and durability. So if the quality and not the price of the item is the deciding factor, and I can get American made, guess who gonna win?

I won't dispute NGK's quality. I ran them in my Bombardier Sea Doos for many years with no issues. I ran the E3s for 78000 miles in the Avalanche with no issues either. I took pictures of the E3s and I post them in this thread just as soon as I get some time to upload them to photobucket first. They ran fine. I admit that I was sucked in by the hype surrounding their tip design (which I truly think is unique). It didn't seem to provide any noticeable mileage or performance improvement over the long haul. They didn't perform badly either. So I decide to buy American (try at least) with a less expensive conventional style plug.

Let me just say one thing about GM selecting NGK. GM and every other manufacturer determines quality by a very simple definition. Quality is defined to be conformance to requirements. The price of non-conformance to requirements (in terms of warranty, repair, replacement, re-work, etc.) is the measure of bad quality. The higher the cost of non-conformance the worst the quality. When something conforms to all of its requirements and specifications for material, reliability, durability, dimension, etc. it is a quality part. So the next factor will be cost. So any customer will want a quality part at the lowest possible price. So obviously NGK gives GM a quality part for the least cost per unit. So NGK is the lowest cost, quality producer to GM for spark plugs. They are good enough for GM, but I am not ready to label them as the best. Of course, I admit that I am jaded already.

When I started with AC, and AC was part of GM, we were expected to give the engine plants the initial plugs for next to nothing. The rationale (back in the days of leaded fuel) was that people changed their spark plugs every 5-10k miles. AC would re-coup this cost on the aftermarket volume (with the average car owner replacing the plugs 5-10 times before they sold the car). This business model changed dramatically with the introduction of unleaded fuel and then when platinum tipped plugs came along and you had plugs that could last 100k miles. It effectively killed most of the aftermarket business for that part. Add a larger number of competitors coming into the US market in the 80s and you know what happened. Flint-made AC plugs are no more. Some GM corporate bean counter felt AC's costs were too high and so it was shutdown, the equipment sold, the plant torn down, and all that remains is a cement slab with trees and weeds growing out of it. This is true for most of the old GM made AC Delco parts.

Finally, heat range is key to the success of any plug in any engine. If you choose the wrong plug, your engine will not like it one bit. I think you might have had defective parts (it happens in spite of every company's best efforts) with your poor experience with Champion, E3s, and such.

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For me Champion has proved itself many times over in EVERYTHING. My toys..snowmobiles, motorcycles, boats. Small displacement, Champion rules. :bowdown: Have tried the other plugs ESP NKG. I always carry spares and plugs are gonna go. Champion last me twice as long as any other plugs. My GM cars = AC only. Others don't compare or perform as well overall even in the Sunbird. My Ford trucks = Motorcraft. Although I had huge issues with plugs I installed in Dec and had 2, burn through the ceramic. Never seen anything like that before. I did find Champions best in my 70 Chevy. (pre smog/detuning by GM) So I also installed em in my GTO. Now wondering if should go up a heat range with the engine running rich sometimes after errant Carb issues or try the AC's. I have to admit, I didn't know NKG bought out AC?? It's already been said, but CORRECT heat range is crutial in keepin your engine happy. NKG fans don't get your panties in a bundle. My son races and wouldn't start his GM engine without NKG's in it. Then again they are changed after 7... 1/4mi runs. :lol2: He also has no explanition for Motorcraft in his Ford Truck DD. :lol2: I make no bones about buying AMERICAN 1st even if you have to look for it. JUSTA not always possable nowdays. :slap:


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Here are the E3s I pulled out of the Avalanche after 78000 miles. Not bad - just not impressive as I had hoped either. They worked, I had not issues with them.



100_4417_zpsf2792e38.jpg



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Here is the knee knocker tach out of the Lemans that I need to work on.



100_4420_zps21fced12.jpg



100_4421_zps9c12020d.jpg

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My cat sat on the hood of the Phoenix today. And I farted in the front seat of the GP then I forgot why I got in the car in the first place. Then a bird shit on my dads Equinox.


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Having GA svs/abs/trac light issues..... not even a year after I replaced both my front hubs. FML. WHY MUST I LIKE THIS STUPID CAR SO MUCH


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Mine was doing it, too. On top of having that misfire, possible clogged cat, coolant possibly leaking internally, odd overheating issues, it's why I now have the Accord.

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Having GA svs/abs/trac light issues..... not even a year after I replaced both my front hubs. FML. WHY MUST I LIKE THIS STUPID CAR SO MUCH

I had that problem. I had a shop replace both my front hubs and not even a year later, my lights started coming on again. I bought the parts and put the car on a lift to do it myself when I found the tie rods both had some wiggle to them that shouldn't have been there. I suspect that the shop that did the alignment (different shop) after the hubs were changed probably didn't tighten them down properly and caused my new hubs to wear out extra quick. After changing them myself I got it aligned again and I made sure to check the tie rods when it was done. These hubs have been on the car for over 4 years now with no issues.

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My cat sat on the hood of the Phoenix today. And I farted in the front seat of the GP then I forgot why I got in the car in the first place. Then a bird shit on my dads Equinox.

Its comforting to know that your family vehicles are used for aiding colo-rectal issues, in addition to transportation. :lol2:

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POO MAGNETS.

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Mine was doing it, too. On top of having that misfire, possible clogged cat, coolant possibly leaking internally, odd overheating issues, it's why I now have the Accord.

The rest sounded like a classic case of LX9 and 2.5in exhaust.... Faster then the accord ever would be :naughty::dancingpontiac:

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