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Thanks Indian, I wouldn't be at this point if it wasn't for you and the others helping to steer me down the right roads bro. I honesty don't know. When I had the machine shop do the block and heads I didn't ask what brands he used. I no that he said I had 2.11/1.77 valves and never thought anything else about it until a post by frosty back in January. I no I'm now using Melling valves but no idea about the seals. When the new shop inspects the heads I would think they would check seals, hope so anyways. I'm hoping to hear back from them today or tomorrow. I will let you know as soon as I hear from them. But it does make sense being I trashed so many of the valves bro.

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2 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Thanks Indian, I wouldn't be at this point if it wasn't for you and the others helping to steer me down the right roads bro. I honesty don't know. When I had the machine shop do the block and heads I didn't ask what brands he used. I no that he said I had 2.11/1.77 valves and never thought anything else about it until a post by frosty back in January. I no I'm now using Melling valves but no idea about the seals. When the new shop inspects the heads I would think they would check seals, hope so anyways. I'm hoping to hear back from them today or tomorrow. I will let you know as soon as I hear from them. But it does make sense being I trashed so many of the valves bro.

First of all I am very happy to see that Ringo’s website works JustA the way he would want it to! People pitching in to help one another out! No condemnation, no heckling, JustA working to resolve someone’s problem! Way to little of the today!

I would guess that the shop that did the heads the first time put in good aftermarket valve seals. To do so they must cut the top of the valve guide. Perfect Circle for instance! A lot of those seals are white and whether they put those in or not they should replace the seals with new ones this time as well.

Edited by Last Indian
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So I got a call from the machine shop today. I've been trying to decide whether or not I should be concerned. Figured I get your thoughts. When I 1st dropped off the heads I was told it would be $200 to inspect and rebuild the heads plus parts. Cool no problem. Then he told me that did not include cutting new valve guides. That he broke the cutting bit last year and since nobody is really running cast iron heads anymore that it just wasn't cost affective to replace it. As long as the guides aren't bad he can do the job. If the guides are bad he'll only charge me $50 for the inspection. Now I have heard good things about this shop so I figured I would at least get him to inspect them for me and go from there. FYI, the next closest machine shop is 2 hours away and said I would be waiting 3-4 months to get them back. So as I said, I got a call today. I was told that he could not get my springs to compress. His machine was not strong enough. I told him that I have a compressor that would compress them (another post World War II tool Frosty lol).That I had already compressed the exhaust valves once when I replaced them and that I would bring mine down in the morning and remove them. So I'm not exactly sure about how I should be feeling right now about this shop. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem helping somebody out or loaning a tool or giving him a hand. I guess I'm just concerned after everything we've been through with this engine. I'm thinking I should just go get them in the morning. So what would y'all do???

Edited by Wrongway
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13 hours ago, JUSTA6 said:

You JUSTA can't seem to catch a break man.  While it's true most all heads are all aluminum these days,  kinda funny he's accepting work knowing he doesn't have the tools to work on it.

I was laughing as I hit the submit button, as then your post went. Figured I had ya beat by .10 sec.  holeshot.  Somehow ya beat me on the big end!!!!:lol:

That’s funny! :rofl:! I thought the same thing! 
The cast iron head deal makes no sense to me! There’s got to be more cast iron heads out there than aluminum! Heck the 3800 was still running cast iron heads in 2009!

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I'm not sure on the cost bro. I didn't ask. I just got back from his shop. I asked what kind of tool he was using to remove the springs. He took me into the shop area and showed me an aluminum air version of my tool. He explained that every time he tried to remove a spring that the fork would separate. He said he was able to remove 1 exhaust valve and he has never seen springs this long. (Get this lol) then he tossed a CAST IRON ford head up on the bench and showed me how his tool "normally" works! Yup, another cast iron head. While he had the Ford valve out he went on to show me how to check the valve guides. Said if I could get the valves out that I should be able to check them myself. The way he showed me was wiggling them. I told him I figured there would been some sort of fancy measuring device to check them. He said there was no way to measure them that his "wiggle" test is the way everybody does it. Is this correct? If so was he right, is this actually something I can do here in my little shop?

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21 hours ago, Wrongway said:

So I got a call from the machine shop today. ......

....So as I said, I got a call today. I was told that he could not get my springs to compress.?

That's a huge warning flag for me that I find very strange.    Do you know anything at all about what kind of springs are on the engine?  What their specs are or anything?  Your post later in this thread mentioned something about the "forks on his compressor separating".   That tells me he's got one of these (prehaps an air-operated version).

spin_prod_214458201??hei=64&wid=64&qlt=5

 When I'd expect a pro machine shop to have something like this:

proform-pneumatic-valve-spring-compresso

See the difference?  The ''business end" is a continuous ring - nothing to separate.

Here are some decent videos that show the processes involved in replacing valve guides, also a quick way to evaluate their condition

 

I'm curious where you live that you've only got one option for a nearby machine shop. Seems odd that he wouldn't keep a valve guide cutter.  You use the same cutter to trim valve guides regardless of head material, and they aren't THAT expensive.  For just one example (I didn't verify if this one is the correct size for Pontiac):
https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams-4726-Valve-Cutter/dp/B00062YEFE

 

Bear

 

 

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Yes Bear, your correct sir. His tool looked just like the 1st pic below. Only well used. The 2nd pic is of my actual compressor that I used last time. I'm in Kentucky Bear,  little town about 20 miles south of Lexington. The 2 hour drive I was speaking of was to summerset ky. The reputable shops iv heard of are down there. I've got an appointment to drop the heads off Saturday morning unless yall say that I can do it. I may be able to find the info on the springs. I no they are the double springs. I ordered them from Comp at the same time I ordered the timing set, cam, rockers and everything so that I knew they would all work together.

CF700B.jpg

spring compressor.jpg

IMG_9502.jpg

IMG_9504.jpg

IMG_9503.jpg

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Ok then, yeah - having the spring specs or even Comp's part number so we can look them up would be very helpful.  Since it's all aftermarket stuff, did you check and verify your spring installed heights and also make sure that when combined with the cam you're running, they aren't going into coil bind?   All that is supremely important.  Its very common with aftermarket springs to need to either cut the spring seats down, or shim the springs up to get the installed height correct.  Otherwise, the spring won't perform as rated.  Either they'll be providing too much pressure which can cause premature wear on the cam and also risk going into coil bind, or not providing ENOUGH pressure in which case the danger is that the lifters might not stay under control and can be "thrown off" the cam at peak lift - engines don't survive that.

If you've still got your cam card, having the specs on that would be helpful too.

Cheers,

Bear

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Ok bro, I do not have the specs but the comp part# is K51-222-4 and I checked summit and the number works to pull up the complete kit that I bought. I believe that the 1st shop I took it to when I had the heads rebuilt put shims in. When I replaced the broken valves I seen flat disks with a number stamped into them underneath the springs. You can see them sticking out just a bit in the 1st picture. I figured they were shims. I did watch the springs as I rolled the engine over a few times by hand when assembling it and didn't see any binding. I also had the engine running with the valve covers off while checking rockers and didn't see any binding. 

Valve shim.jpg

IMG_9507.jpg

Cam card.jpg

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I just got the time to watch that video Bear. Thanks, that explained a lot that I didn't know. I also watched a couple of hours worth of other videos on guides, seats and valves. I had no idea how in depth it all was. I feel like if the guides and seats are still good then I could lap them myself. I have a old set of Ford 351M heads in the shop. I thought about practicing on them 1st but I have nothing to put them on to test after lol. It seems as if I pull the valves out and check the seats that I should be able to use a new valve to check the straightness of the guide? Or could that still be untrue? 

Oh, and yeah, those cutters aren't as bad as he made them out to be. Honestly I would have even covered the cost at that price just to have them done and the piece of mind.

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i am with the guys here wrongway, go get your heads and run! 

machine shop with no tools!!! what the f_ck! 

drive the 2 hours to a REAL machine shop!

better still mate, ask around, you must have mates that have had/ found a good machinist 

Edited by 64 kiwi boni
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Great - ok I see your cam specs.  I called Comp myself and asked about the springs, the part number he gave me (SKU 995-15) I don't find on their web site but the rep gave me the specs on the springs.

Installed height: 1.700

Seat Pressure: 115 lbs

Open pressure: 336 lbs

Coil bind: 1.150  (so the max safe valve lift is about .490: 1.700-1.150-0.060 safefy margin = .0490)  - which is within range of what that cam makes assuming 1.5:1 ratio rockers (.462/.470)

All that of course assumes that the spring installed heights are all set correctly at 1.700

If you want to check them yourself, the best tool for doing that is one of these:

https://www.racingsprings.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/6180/s/valvetrain-tool/category/529/

There are different brands/styles available, but I like these because they're stainless steel instead of aluminum which I believe makes them more accurate.

It can be also be done with a snap gauge and a micrometer, but getting accurate readings that way is much more difficult.

 

The springs you have, I assume they're "right" for your cam because they're part of the kit.  They aren't super stiff by any means, so your machine shop should have had no problems at all working with them.  By way of comparison,  my engine has a solid roller cam that's significantly more "rowdy" than what you have so it needs stiffer springs - and those springs generate 220 lbs of seat pressure at an installed height of 1.920 - nearly twice as stiff as what you have - and I can manage them with a manual spring compressor like this one:

https://www.proformparts.com/product-detail/66832/engine-valve-spring-compressor-heavy-duty-model-manual-clamp-style

So, I'm going to agree with others and recommend that you make the trip to a different machine shop and have them go through your heads.  Get a full valve job on both intake and exhaust, check the guides, verify the spring installed heights are all 1.700, and install new valve stem seals - this "style" - whatever size is right for how the tops of your guides have been cut. 

https://butlerperformance.com/i-24453462-pep-500x-11-32-viton-valve-stem-seals-620-od-pep-343500-16.html?ref=category:1234798

Also have them verify that at .470 lift the bottoms of the retainers have adequate clearance to the tops of the guides.  Here's a good explanation of areas that need to be checked for proper clearances.

https://www.lunatipower.com/valve-spring-tech

 

Bear

Edited by BearGFR
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Yeah bear, I did use the 1.5 rockers and I will have them order the seals from Butler. I'll drop the heads off in the morning and keep you posted. Thanks again bro

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Wrongway - some food for thought for you.

You mentoned that you are in the Lexington KY area and the next closet machine shop is 2 hours away. Being in Lexington, that puts you about 4.5 hours (one-way) from Butler Performance in Lawrenceburg TN. Butler is one, if not, THE premiere Pontiac engine builders in the country. I'm certain that they can do anything you need them to and do it right. I know I'd sleep better at night knowing Butler re-worked my heads. I'd love to have one of their crate motors.

https://butlerperformance.com/

You might want to give them a call.

Edited by Frosty
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I've traded with Butler in the past. Awesome customer service! I didn't realize they were in TN. I will give them a call and see what the price & turn around time would be. Thanks Frosty  

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  • 1 month later...

Well good news. I got the call today saying I can pick up the heads in the morning. Hopefully I can get the engine back in the car sometime this week. I'll update yall when I know more.

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6 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Well good news. I got the call today saying I can pick up the heads in the morning. Hopefully I can get the engine back in the car sometime this week. I'll update yall when I know more.

We expect pictures and you to describe your whole experience with Butler.

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Well, I didn't end up using Butler guys. Sorry. I did talk to them before dropping my heads off to the machine shop here though I hope I don't regret that decision. After talking to Butler and explaining everything that happened with the car and that the engine and heads were rebuilt already and I had bent and broke valves we decided that having the local shop do an inspection would hurt and any work that needed to be done would be done by butler. I was told to call them and let them no what the inspection showed and they would give me a quote and I could either drop them off or they would help me arrange shipping to them. I was told turn around time would be 3- 4 months. The shop here said the only issues he seen was a couple of bent intake valves. Said he checked all the exhaust valves and they were a straight. Should be, they were brand new, I just didn't know to lap them. So he put new seals on, the butler seals that BEAR recommended, lapped the valves and done. I just really hope that was the right decision. 

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