Frustrated

[Last Indian]

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

Hey Justa, glad to hear from ya bro. In the pic of the timing chain, I sent that because I was thinking the little circle thing in the middle was the eccentric. If it’s not then y’all let me know and tell me where it is and I’ll send pics. I was thinking that was it. Yes I put everything back exactly like that pic showed. Looking at the new pump with the spring. On the inside of the lever there is a small post where the spring goes over it. A spring keeper if you will. On the old pump there is no “keeper” and there is no evidence that there ever was one or that one had broken off. I honesty believe that the spring was not on it when I installed it. At least that’s my hopes. That car starts and runs good now, I think. Engine still seems to vibrate more then I would think it should but I don’t know. I did do the vacuum tests today that Indian & Bear suggested. Running hooked up, Running everything blocked off, didn’t matter. Still showing 7hg of vacuum at 950RPM. I adjust the carb, reset timing and that’s the best I could get. Also, at 950RPM at idle and put into gear she drops to 500RPMs. I did buy a new hand held vacuum gauge and it’s all over the place. The gauge in the car is steady. But she does start and run on her own again lol, that’s something. The videos are of both gauges with the car running. JustA thought, could all of this be carb related? 

Wrongway, do me a favor take some good pictures of the carb & manifold where the carb bolts to it, also showing the vacuum connections. Also check your firing order! And bring #1 cylinder up on tdc manually, take off the distributor cap and see where the rotor is pointing! If it’s not pointing directly at #1 pin in the cap, you’re off a tooth, because somethings off! That motor is idling way to rough!

Edited June 23, 2020 by Last Indian

[JUSTA6]

You've been getting great advise and most everything I would have checked has been on somebody's list for ya to do.  You already know to make sure the fuel pump arm goes under the eccentric,  over it and the pump wouldn't work and I've seen the reverse pressure pop out the spring.  Waaay back in the day, all 3 of my buds would work on our cars all together to figure out our problems.  Dad's were also our backup.  LMAO  a certain 68 Lemans  comes to mind on HOW TO INSTALL A FUEL PUMP.    Sounds like your not runnin the car long enough to have an issue with the fuel line route/heat.   But keep that in mind down the road.  I'm with Bear.......unhook all vac lines and reinstall one at a time to find your leak.   Start fluid test...make sure you slowly squirt the full length of the intake @ the gasket and head as well as around the carb base.  Last squirt around the brake booster and vac connector.   As that's a new carb, is there any open vac ports on that carb?   You have plenty to keep ya busy for awhile.....Good Luck!

[BearGFR]

Ok, so we know the vacuum isn't lying.  Also that bouncing needle on the second gauge is another indicator of problems.

(References: https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/mastering-the-basics-reading-a-vacuum-gauge/

http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html

Just for a couple.

On the engine compartment video, I -thought- I could hear an intermittent 'ticking' sound that could have been spark jumping.  The engine shaking like that is also consistent with an ignition problem.  Run it like that in the dark and look/listen for sparks between wires, around the plug boots, anywhere a wire is close to metal.  Make sure all your plug boots are connected well.  Double check your ignition timing.  We hope that it's an ignition problem that's making the needle jump like that because the other possible causes are much less pleasant. 

Bear

Edited June 23, 2020 by BearGFR

[Wrongway]

Here’s the carb, intake, vac lines pics

UIn these pics the engine is at TDC my rotor is way off. But could it start and run the way it is??? I’m going to reset that now

[Wrongway]

Sorry I misspoke. I was looking at #1 piston not the #1 wire. Yes it’s on TDC and point is pointing at #1 wire on cap

[Wrongway]

Ok so I restabbed the distributor. It’s at #1 on the cap. Here’s where she’s at now. 1st number is where timing is at, 2nd is RPMs then the vac gauge. Hope this makes sense to y’all. 

[Wrongway]

No Justa, no open ports on the carb. The carb was rebuilt last year but I've been wondering if its just "worn out". If that's possible. I turned the idle screw today an 1/8th of a turn with no drop in RPMs. Another 1/8th of a turn dropped 400 RPMs. Then when you shut it off and restart it the RPMs are a couple hundred different, like 1000 at shut off and 750- 800 at restart, and yes I let it run a few minuets between adjustments for the engine to catch up to what I did lol.

[JUSTA6]

16 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Sorry I misspoke. I was looking at #1 piston not the #1 wire. Yes it’s on TDC and point is pointing at #1 wire on cap

Sorry stupid question BUT.... firing order is correct and in counterclockwise direction.  I've seen Chevy guys go clockwise with a Pontiac.  It actually idles but will not take any gas. LOL  Gotta be gettin close....not much left to check.

[Wrongway]

Yes sir, I redid that yesterday also. This is what I went by bro. Also, you said “ I've seen Chevy guys go clockwise with a Pontiac.  It actually idles but will not take any gas. LOL”. That’s the odd thing bro, with all the issues she’s having right now if you rev her up, she sounds great. She sounds tight and all of the vibration goes away. Which is one reason that I’ve been wondering if it could be the carb. I my head, I’ve heard that a carburetor has an idle circuit and she’s idling rough. I know that the carb has vacuum ports and there’s vacuum problems. But logic in my head doesn’t always follow real world logic.  🤷🏻‍♂️ So here we are lol.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Wrongway

[JUSTA6]

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

Yes sir, I redid that yesterday also. This is what I went by bro. Also, you said “ I've seen Chevy guys go clockwise with a Pontiac.  It actually idles but will not take any gas. LOL”. That’s the odd thing bro, with all the issues she’s having right now if you rev her up, she sounds great. She sounds tight and all of the vibration goes away. Which is one reason that I’ve been wondering if it could be the carb. I my head, I’ve heard that a carburetor has an idle circuit and she’s idling rough. I know that the carb has vacuum ports and there’s vacuum problems. But logic in my head doesn’t always follow real world logic.  🤷🏻‍♂️ So here we are lol.

Nobody has mentioned plugs yet.  Couldn't hurt to pop em out, clean em up and make sure each one is firing before dropping them back in. This would check each plug wire for ya as Bear suggested he may have heard a ticking noise. Vacume leak seems by far the biggest prob to figure out.  

[Wrongway]

Yes sir you are correct and she’s got new plugs and wires but I will spark test each one and get back to you. 

[Last Indian]

3 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Yes sir, I redid that yesterday also. This is what I went by bro. Also, you said “ I've seen Chevy guys go clockwise with a Pontiac.  It actually idles but will not take any gas. LOL”. That’s the odd thing bro, with all the issues she’s having right now if you rev her up, she sounds great. She sounds tight and all of the vibration goes away. Which is one reason that I’ve been wondering if it could be the carb. I my head, I’ve heard that a carburetor has an idle circuit and she’s idling rough. I know that the carb has vacuum ports and there’s vacuum problems. But logic in my head doesn’t always follow real world logic.  🤷🏻‍♂️ So here we are lol.

 

1 hour ago, JUSTA6 said:

Nobody has mentioned plugs yet.  Couldn't hurt to pop em out, clean em up and make sure each one is firing before dropping them back in. This would check each plug wire for ya as Bear suggested he may have heard a ticking noise. Vacume leak seems by far the biggest prob to figure out.  

Sorry, but I been working for the kid so haven’t really been following to well the last few days. I did skim through the post though and all good advice. 

One thing strikes me though, at this point we’re still at either fuel, spark or vac! So based on that, two of the three interface more so, fuel & vac! You say idle is the issue more so the upper rpm revs!? So try this get the engine warm, then while idling squirt some fuel down the front two barrels see if it smooth out, bogs down or what! Then if it bogs slowly manually at the carb crack the back throttle plates. 

If either of those cause an improvement you need to go through the carb and mak sure you have manifold vacuum, where needed is manifold vacuum & Venturi vacuum, where needed is Venturi vacuum.

Also did you check the point dwell and the distributor advance?

[Wrongway]

Hey bud, I have no Throttle plate at the back of the carb that I know of and which ports are Venturi vacuum? Also, I’m running a 1 wire HEI distributor of that matters.  

[Last Indian]

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

Hey bud, I have no Throttle plate at the back of the carb that I know of and which ports are Venturi vacuum? Also, I’m running a 1 wire HEI distributor of that matters.  

Ok, I’m starting to think more and more it’s the carb!

A 4 barrel carb has two front ventures and two back ventures. The back throttle plates have to be adjusted correctly or the car won’t idle right! It can also effect performance when you punch it.

venturi vac increases as the throttle increases while manifold vac decreases when throttle increases! They are use for different functions. For both the motor as well as the car!

Edited June 24, 2020 by Last Indian

[Wrongway]

I did the spark test. Looks really weak to me. See what y’all think.

Also when I shut it off last night the RPMs were at 950. When I started it today they were at 600. 
 

FYI, I’m replying from my phone because it’s easier to upload pics and videos. So if I double post I reply I apologize. I caught it once earlier. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Wrongway

[Wrongway]

So I just ordered a new Edelbrock 1913. I know the weak spark has nothing to do with carb issues but I still think I'm also having carb issues  (plus I've been eye balling it since it first came out lol). There's also a new distributor on way. Both should be here this week. We'll see if that makes a difference and I'll let yall know. 

[64 kiwi boni]

Wrongway

Last Indian is on to it mate, one thing i would note is those clear dizzy caps are sh-t

 and good on you for using ngk, they are good 👍, show us the other end mate, that will  tell a whole lot about your fueling.

 personally i think your getting there but you have more that 2 issues here aye🙄

 Last Indian knows his stuff and i am reading this with great interest  

[Wrongway]

Yeah Kiwi, your right bud. I may have more then 2 problems. I'm just hoping to eliminate these 2 lol. I agree Last Indian is very knowledgeable, along with a number of the others on here. Its great being able to pick their brains and get other points of view when your having problems. As far as the other end of the plug, I didn't think about pictures until all the plugs were cleaned and I was spark testing. I will keep yall posted and update as soon as I get the new carb & distributor installed. Looks like they should be here by July 2nd.

Thank you again everybody!

[BearGFR]

Have you tried watching it run in the dark and looking for spark arcing in places where it shouldn't be? In the last of your previous 3 recordings, I'm definitely hearing a 'tick' that shouldn't be there.

[Last Indian]

7 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Yeah Kiwi, your right bud. I may have more then 2 problems. I'm just hoping to eliminate these 2 lol. I agree Last Indian is very knowledgeable, along with a number of the others on here. Its great being able to pick their brains and get other points of view when your having problems. As far as the other end of the plug, I didn't think about pictures until all the plugs were cleaned and I was spark testing. I will keep yall posted and update as soon as I get the new carb & distributor installed. Looks like they should be here by July 2nd.

Thank you again everybody!

Wrongway, no that’s not a good ignition spark and I see you said you ordered a new distributor. I assume that comes with the coil? Because more than likely that’s at least part of the problem there! 
I’m not sure you got it, but on your old carb, on the passenger side of it, at the bottom is where the two, front and rear throttle shafts are. 
still the bigger question is this! Since you are buying a new carb, you need to make sure you get the correct carb to manifold gasket! The wrong gasket will give you nightmares. The manifold you are running is stock right? If so it’s a duel plane manifold! Are you sure that carb is good with a duel plane? Duel planes work best with a divided gasket and the right bottom porting placement in the gasket to matchup with the carb to manifold. Yes you can do mods to basically do away with the duel plane function, but those need to than match a new type gasket! Just make sure it all goes with each other!

[Wrongway]

Yeah Bear, I did bro. I didn't see anything jumping spark. But I could barley see any spark at the plug or threw the clear cap. You saying you hear an electrical tick and the weakness of the spark is why I went ahead and ordered the new distributor. I hoping that solves that problem. If not then a stronger spark should at least make it easier to find the problem, I hope.

Yes Indian, It the style that has the coil built on to the top of the cap. I ordered a PerTronix brand. I've never used them but I've seen some decent reviews. Yes sir I'm using the original factory intake, I was told not to replace it because it was "factory tuned"  and all the runners were the same length. Not sure if that was true or not but I left it on the engine. As far as the carb goes, the carb I'm using now has 4 "butterfly" looking things on the bottom. Then a 1" spacer. The gasket from the base of carb to the spacer is just a big open square. It matches the spacer. These pics aren't of my spacer but it looks like it. The pic of the gasket is the gasket I'm using on top and bottom of the spacer. So this set up could be part of the problem because its not a divided gasket?

[BearGFR]

Ok, that's a spreadbore carb - similar arrangement to the QJet, so you're running the correct manifold.   I still think I'm hearing a ticking sound, so if it's not spark jumping somewhere my next suspicion would be a loose adjustment on a lifter.  We know you've got aftermarket stuff and adjustable poly-lock nuts from a previous exchange.  When you first adjusted them all, how did you do it?  What sequence and how did you verify each lifter was on the cam base circle (all the way closed) when adjusting?

[Last Indian]

2 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Yeah Bear, I did bro. I didn't see anything jumping spark. But I could barley see any spark at the plug or threw the clear cap. You saying you hear an electrical tick and the weakness of the spark is why I went ahead and ordered the new distributor. I hoping that solves that problem. If not then a stronger spark should at least make it easier to find the problem, I hope.

Yes Indian, It the style that has the coil built on to the top of the cap. I ordered a PerTronix brand. I've never used them but I've seen some decent reviews. Yes sir I'm using the original factory intake, I was told not to replace it because it was "factory tuned"  and all the runners were the same length. Not sure if that was true or not but I left it on the engine. As far as the carb goes, the carb I'm using now has 4 "butterfly" looking things on the bottom. Then a 1" spacer. The gasket from the base of carb to the spacer is just a big open square. It matches the spacer. These pics aren't of my spacer but it looks like it. The pic of the gasket is the gasket I'm using on top and bottom of the spacer. So this set up could be part of the problem because its not a divided gasket?

Yes the OEM duel plane is a great manifold! It’s what I would have used! And yes the carb you show is a spread bore as Bear said, but it’s not quite as simple as that! 
You pick a manifold for a specific set of engine perimeters and than a carb to enhance those! In that process you may want too take some advantage of some specific power band area because of gearing, transmission, etc. all of those things will influence what gasket and or spacer you use! These are choices you need to make, but if you pick this or that, mix and match so to speak this can cause you some real headaches later on! So I would just encourage you to step through this logically and not in a hurry! So when you’re done; you’re done!

And FYI, those butterfly things are throttle plates! And that’s what I was speaking of before. The back ones need set a specific way! Even from the factory they are not always set correctly for a specific setup!
 

[Wrongway]

Ok Bear, so being the 1st time I've set valve lash I watched a video. It said to rotate the engine until the intake valve closed on the 1st cylinder. That should be on the closed for both intake and exhaust. Then turning (twisting, spinning) the push rod gently between fingers tighten the nut down until you just start feeling pressure. Then tighten half a turn past that and lock down the allen wrench screw in the middle of the nut. They said that was 0 lash plus 1/2 a turn. Then repeat for each cylinder. I have no idea if that's correct or not bud, but that's how I attempted to do it.  

Indian, The reason I decided to run this set up is, well its what was in the car when I bought it lol. So I honestly have no clue what is wrong or what is right with it. The 428/400 turbo seemed like it would be a good choice at the time. Its got the 325 gears (325 or 323 something like that). The body was solid so I bought it. Since then I've rebuilt the engine, had the trans rebuilt, raised the trans tunnel 1 1/2" because the trans was pushing up on the floor, built and balanced a new drive shaft, new passenger side floor pan, rewired the complete car, built a custom ignition switch because nobody uses a 9 pin switch like Pontiac lol so painless couldn't say exactly how to hook it up. All their suggestions blew fusses. With that said brother, I'm really not sure what engine perimeters I'm shooting for. At 1st I just wanted to get her running so I could move on to the body and paint. I bought all new everything in hopes that when my son gets her down the road he could still enjoy her and she'd last. I can tell you what I want her to do, I'm just not sure at this point how to get there. When I found out that she had hwy gears I figured I'd just build her back to stockish so I could drive her back & forth to Detroit when I'm up there. Then when I seen the gallons of gas per minute she drinks I figured Lexington to Detroit would cost a fortune. So now I'm just thinking daily/sunday driver, rear end gear swap so she's quick from light to light. Not racing and mostly around town driving. I did talk to edelbrock and they said that carb would be a good choice for my "power band" which comp cams said should be from 1500- 5500rpm. I can answer any questions as far as what I've done or want or what I've been told so far but and got pics to go with it lol. But honestly bro, I may just be lost right now. I did look at the throttle plates when I had the carb off. They were laying flat, hey opened and closed. I didn't know there was an adjustment. when I get the new carb ill check them out before I put it on. Is there anything I need to be looing for specifically? Do I even need the spacer bro?

[BearGFR]

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

Ok Bear, so being the 1st time I've set valve lash I watched a video. It said to rotate the engine until the intake valve closed on the 1st cylinder. That should be on the closed for both intake and exhaust. Then turning (twisting, spinning) the push rod gently between fingers tighten the nut down until you just start feeling pressure. Then tighten half a turn past that and lock down the allen wrench screw in the middle of the nut. They said that was 0 lash plus 1/2 a turn. Then repeat for each cylinder. I have no idea if that's correct or not bud, but that's how I attempted to do it. 

With that mild cam, that procedure probably worked ok.  If you want to be certain, then it takes two complete revolutions of the engine.  Pull the rocker covers, turn the engine over by hand using a socket on the crank balancer bolt.  Watch until you see #1 EXHAUST valve just beginning to open.  Now adjust the INTAKE valve like you said: 1/2 turn past zero lash.  Turn the crank 90 degrees until  you see #8 EXHAUST starting to open, repeat for #8 intake.  Repeat that process through the rest of the firing order (18)436572.  You're halfway done at this point.  Keep turning until you see #1 INTAKE just beginning to >CLOSE<.  Now adjust #1 exhaust.  Lather, rinse, repeat for the rest of the exhaust valves in firing order sequence.

Which brings us back to the original question:  Like I said I "think" I'm hearing a ticking sound that doesn't belong in your recordings.  Could be it's real, could be I'm hallucinating or it's just something odd in the recording process that's fooling my ear.  If you hear it too, one way to isolate where it's coming from is to use something like a long piece of wood broomstick, placing one end against your ear and the other end on various points on the engine.  When you locate the source, it'll be obvious.

It's really easy to get lost down the rabbit hole and starting chasing germlins, throwing money at parts just hoping to trip over the solution.   At this point I'd recommend stopping, taking a deep breath, and then going back over *everything*, starting with the obvious and easy to check things first, (re)verifying that it's all correct.  Work from the easy to check stuff first and progress towards the not so easy to check stuff.

What we know at this point is that you've got a rough idle and manifold vacuum is way lower than it should be with that cam profile. 

Now that you've got a new vacuum gauge, use that to set your idle mixture.  Start closing the mixture screws completely (lightly seated), back them out two full turns, disconnect and cap off the fitting for your distributor vacuum advance.  Start it at set an RPM where it will keep running and you can work with it - say 800 RPM or so.  Let it warm up.  Using your new gauge, slowly tweak the idle mixture screws (always change both by exactly the same amount).  When you find the setting that gives you the highest vacuum reading, stop - you're done (for now).  Double check your ignition timing (also set with vacuum advance disconnected and capped off).  It's best to use a light that can check total advance and set it that way - what you're looking for to start is 35 degrees timing at 2500 RPM.  After that's set - let it idle and check with the light just to find out what initial setting corresponds to that 35@2500 setting so you can return to that point (or vary it slightly) without having to be fiddling with it while the engine is at RPM.  That can be a little unnerving if you're not used to doing it.  Make sure your plugs are good, gapped correctly, clean, wires are good, and nothing is arcing (I know --- check it again).  Check fuel pressure being delivered at the carb inlet.  You ought to have around 3 but no more than 6psi.   If it still isn't "right" after doing those two things, your next move is to verify your valve/lifter settings again.  Also do the 'starting fluid' tests and go through again looking for vacuum leaks.  If you can't find a leak, the ignition is right, the lifters are right, the idle mixture is right, fuel pressure is right, and it's still acting up then it's time to run a cylinder leakdown test so see if you've got leakage anywhere  - rings, valves, valve guides, etc.

It's not unheard of for brand new out of the box parts to be bad, so just because you've recently replaced something doesn't guarantee it's good.  Check everything  and make sure.