Frustrated

[64 kiwi boni]

9 hours ago, Last Indian said:

Short answer, yes! Long answer it would depend on what if anything was damaged! Pull the pump & rod! Inspect the rod for damage/wear/galling. Did you break in the cam correctly, use the right break in lube, just covering bases here! But somethings changed by what you’re indicating!

last indian, your bang on the money mate! if that rod was not lubed, it would take 100 miles to kill the end of it and or the lobe !

[Wrongway]

Ok so I got the flared fitting and installed it. No change. The 1st video is after install. My finger is as high as the fuel level got. The 2nd video I filled the fuel bowls and let it run until the carb ran dry. Still know fuel coming out of the hose. It did appear to have fuel in the hose that was in the gas can side. Also, I know I'm going to sound like an idiot but I cant find that rod. I honestly don't remember there being a rod when I tore down and rebuilt this engine. I was thinking the pump just ran off of the eccentric. But the engine WAS running and I did drive it down the road, so I may just not remember if from last year. I did however stick my finger in the hole in the block where the fuel pump goes and felt nothing. 

[Wrongway]

I don't know why this didn't post earlier, this is my 3rd try. So I got the flared fitting and installed it today. No change. The 1st video was starting it dry and my finger is pointing at where the fuel hose is. In the 2nd video I filled up the fuel bowls and let it run until the carb ran dry. I know I'm going to sound like an idiot but I cant find the rod y'all keep talking about. I honestly don't remember there being one in this motor when I tore down or reassembled it. I stuck my finger in the hole in the block where the pump bolts on and couldn't feel anything. But like I said the engine was running and I did drive it a couple of weeks ago.

[Last Indian]

1 hour ago, Wrongway said:

I don't know why this didn't post earlier, this is my 3rd try. So I got the flared fitting and installed it today. No change. The 1st video was starting it dry and my finger is pointing at where the fuel hose is. In the 2nd video I filled up the fuel bowls and let it run until the carb ran dry. I know I'm going to sound like an idiot but I cant find the rod y'all keep talking about. I honestly don't remember there being one in this motor when I tore down or reassembled it. I stuck my finger in the hole in the block where the pump bolts on and couldn't feel anything. But like I said the engine was running and I did drive it a couple of weeks ago.

You’re not an idiot buddy! I haven’t worked on a Pontiac motor in a long time! I’m use to Chevy & Buick's! It appears that neither the 428 or the 400 use a rod, but there is a difference in the fuel pumps, I’m particularly the lever! NAPA shows a NNP B0167P for a 428 where the 400 uses a NNP B0208P unit. I would believe this is your problem! You need to get the right pump. The lever of the one you have is being push just slightly, but not enough to actually pump fuel!

[Wrongway]

I'm actually really glad it doesn't have a rod since I've been trying to figure out how in the heck I could've lost it or how the engine ate it! So I'll go by NAPA in the morning and let you know if that fix's the problem. Seriously, thank you all very much.

[64 kiwi boni]

5 hours ago, Wrongway said:

I'm actually really glad it doesn't have a rod since I've been trying to figure out how in the heck I could've lost it or how the engine ate it! So I'll go by NAPA in the morning and let you know if that fix's the problem. Seriously, thank you all very much.

your on to it Wrong way

 its as easy as buying the wrong pump👍

 been there done that... thats the cool part about cars... you never stop learning 😜

[Frosty]

While I understand parts interchangeability and part differentiation, this one has me baffled. Let's assume that the correct fuel pump solves Wrongway's problem. I certainly hope so.

What confuses me is the pump arm built differently between a 428 and 400? Because the block geometry should not change. The external Pontiac blocks dimensions didn't change much from 1960 to 1981. So the fuel pump location to the camshaft eccentric location should not have changed between these two casting. Bore and stroke would have changed for sure. Different heads and intakes sure. But not the general casting dimensions like the fuel pump to ececenric.

The only other scenario that makes sense to me is if a different fuel pump is needed for a tri-power versus a 2-bbl or 4-bbl, but that is about it. 

[Last Indian]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

While I understand parts interchangeability and part differentiation, this one has me baffled. Let's assume that the correct fuel pump solves Wrongway's problem. I certainly hope so.

What confuses me is the pump arm built differently between a 428 and 400? Because the block geometry should not change. The external Pontiac blocks dimensions didn't change much from 1960 to 1981. So the fuel pump location to the camshaft eccentric location should not have changed between these two casting. Bore and stroke would have changed for sure. Different heads and intakes sure. But not the general casting dimensions like the fuel pump to ececenric.

The only other scenario that makes sense to me is if a different fuel pump is needed for a tri-power versus a 2-bbl or 4-bbl, but that is about it. 

Frosty I won’t even begin to act like I know! I think you know I have done and still do a lot with engines, but most of that as I said was always with Chevys & Buick! It’s been a long time since it was a actual Pontiac motor! So I do forget! Don’t say a word 🖐️ about old! Still a pump is a pump and fuel is fuel, duh! Watching and listening to wrong way, something just wasn’t right with what was happening or how it was not pumping! You may or quite possibly will be right! Not being there I can only step through it one thing at a time! Is it possible that the eccentric is in wrong? Not located in the correct spot? You know shifted over to one side some how?

[Wrongway]

I’m honestly not sure either but looking at the pics on the Napa part# pump and my pump, they are different. The Napa pump (pictured) has a short bowl and the inlet port is clocked in a different position. My pump has a bowl that is 2“- 2 1/2” tall. Seems to me that if it is short stroking the pump maybe the taller bowl is holding more air and allowing in to enter the fuel hose on each cycle. But hell, what do I know lol. I did order the new pump this morning. It should be here tomorrow around lunch time. Napa didn’t have it in stock and said it would be next Wednesday, only place that had it in their “net work” was auto zone, so let’s hope it’s right. 

[Frosty]

2 hours ago, Last Indian said:

Frosty I won’t even begin to act like I know! I think you know I have done and still do a lot with engines, but most of that as I said was always with Chevys & Buick! It’s been a long time since it was a actual Pontiac motor! So I do forget! Don’t say a word 🖐️ about old! Still a pump is a pump and fuel is fuel, duh! Watching and listening to wrong way, something just wasn’t right with what was happening or how it was not pumping! You may or quite possibly will be right! Not being there I can only step through it one thing at a time! Is it possible that the eccentric is in wrong? Not located in the correct spot? You know shifted over to one side some how?

Could be Last Indian. I appreciate what you've been telling Wrongway all along. Trying to solve this one step at a time.

 

2 hours ago, Wrongway said:

I’m honestly not sure either but looking at the pics on the Napa part# pump and my pump, they are different. The Napa pump (pictured) has a short bowl and the inlet port is clocked in a different position. My pump has a bowl that is 2“- 2 1/2” tall. Seems to me that if it is short stroking the pump maybe the taller bowl is holding more air and allowing in to enter the fuel hose on each cycle. But hell, what do I know lol. I did order the new pump this morning. It should be here tomorrow around lunch time. Napa didn’t have it in stock and said it would be next Wednesday, only place that had it in their “net work” was auto zone, so let’s hope it’s right. 

Hi Wrongway. Let's hope so. Since you are in the middle of this whole, look to see if the fuel pump arms look different - either in length or shape between the 400 and 428 pumps. That is the only thing that, in my mind, would make a huge difference. I could be wrong - i've been wrong before too.

Now I know some pumps are indexable, by that, you can unbolt the lower diaphragm assembly and rotate the lower end to move the output line accordingly. However, that should not affect what you experienced unless it was not sealed properly. That said, this would not necessarily apply for a sealed unit (unless the diaphragm was bad to begin with).

[Wrongway]

I'll look tomorrow when I get the new pump Frosty and post pics of both units. Y'all have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time and helping me. Thank you again. I truly had no idea where to go. I was actually considering going with fuel injection in hopes of solving this issue. The conversation of LS swap had even crept into the garage one night. I know she's not fixed yet, but again, thank you all so much.

[Last Indian]

35 minutes ago, Wrongway said:

I'll look tomorrow when I get the new pump Frosty and post pics of both units. Y'all have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time and helping me. Thank you again. I truly had no idea where to go. I was actually considering going with fuel injection in hopes of solving this issue. The conversation of LS swap had even crept into the garage one night. I know she's not fixed yet, but again, thank you all so much.

Wrongway, when you pull the pump tomorrow, see if you can take a flashlight & mirror and look in the opening where the pump goes up towards the cam. See if you can see the cam eccentric and which end is the open end, I.E. towards the front or back!

[Frosty]

2 hours ago, Wrongway said:

I'll look tomorrow when I get the new pump Frosty and post pics of both units. Y'all have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time and helping me. Thank you again. I truly had no idea where to go. I was actually considering going with fuel injection in hopes of solving this issue. The conversation of LS swap had even crept into the garage one night. I know she's not fixed yet, but again, thank you all so much.

I understand the frustration. An LS swap, albeit cool, is a whole 'nuther can of beans.

[Wrongway]

Will do Indian. If I remember correctly the open end was towards the front (fan side) when I tore it down so I put it back in the same way. I will try to double check tomorrow. 

Yeah Frosty, I totally agree bud

[Wrongway]

Just came across these from when I had to open it up a few months ago. This was disassembly and I did reassembly the same way. I take pics of EVERYTHING I take a part lol. Then I study them before I put anything back together. I'll still double check tomorrow and see if I can see in there. 

[Wrongway]

Ok so the only real differences that I see is that the old pump looks like the spring is missing. Regardless, I hooked up the new pump, primed the carb and she started and ran on her own. Awesome!!! No air bubbles either. When I shut her off you can still see the fuel in the line drop back down 6”-8”. Next question is I told u that I ran an aluminum fuel line under the intake, above the valley pan. Should I be concerned about heat or vapor lock? Any more suggestions or concerns about the fuel system?

[BearGFR]

On 6/11/2020 at 11:20 AM, Wrongway said:

Hey guys, so I'm having a couple of issues. Or it may be 1 I'm really not sure. The 428 was running good but the vacuum was lower than what I thought it should be 7-8 in park and 4-5 in drive. I do have a small cam but I wouldn't think it should effect it that much. So I tried retuning the carb (edelbrock 1411 750cfm) to get more vacuum. was able to get as high as 8 in park, 5 in drive. Also I had issues with the motor holding prime. When its was running it was fine. When you shut it off you can see the fuel slowly creeping back down the fuel line and big air bubbles coming up it. Oh I put on a clear fuel line for now so I could as what was going on. No wet spots on the driveway either. So I figured that was a problem with the pump. 2 Days ago I replaced the pump, still doing the same thing. Yesterday I went out to give it another try. I use starting fluid to get the engine turning enough to pull fuel up and got it to the carb but she wouldn't run on her own. As soon as you take your foot of the pedal she dies. I forgot to mention, when she was running I had to set the RPM's between 1100- 1200 in park and in gear they would drop to 450- 550 RPM's. If I set it as say 800RPM's in park she would try to die when shifting to drive or reverse. The carb was rebuilt last year and everything on the car has been rebuilt or is new. Any thoughts?

Thank you

 

I'm really late to the party, so if all this has been covered already please forgive me.  I did "scan" the thread but probably didn't catch all the details.

Pontiac fuel pumps --- are definitely all the same in terms of the pump arm geometry - take that to the bank.  Some have vapor return lines, some don't - that's about the only difference.  If you use a pump with a provision for a vapor return on a car that doesn't have a return line, all you need to do is cap off that fitting on the pump.   It's not like a high-pressure fuel injection system that requires a return to shunt 'bypass' fuel back to the tank.   There's no pressure on that return.  You cap if off (if it's not used) just to keep it from letting fuel vapor leak out all around that hot driver's side exhaust manifold/header -- for obvious reasons

I did see one post with a really funky looking end on the fuel line where there's supposed to be a double-flare.  That's definitely going to leak and could be the cause of your fuel issue, but it's not going to cause your low manifold vacuum problem.  That's something different, so you have (or had, if you've fixed that tubing already) at least two separate problems.

Low manifold vacuum - and it is, VERY low.  With that mild cam in a 428 you should be getting vacuum readings that are at least double or triple the readings I saw.  You've got a vacuum leak somewhere, and it's a significant one --- it could even be in that factory vacuum gauge or in the line going to it.  The gauge itself may be lying to you.  It'd be worth buying a new hand-held gauge (they aren't very expensive) and verifying that it's reading accurately.   Next thing I'd try: disconnect and cap off >every< vacuum port on the carburetor and intake manifold.  Disconnect all the lines, cap off the connections.  Power brake booster, transmission vacuum modulator, distributor vacuum advance, vacuum gauge, PCV, vacuum lines to the factory a/c  --- everything.  See if that makes a difference in how it runs/sounds.  Connect your new hand-held gauge and leave everything else capped off.  Check the reading...  If it's still low and you're sure everything is capped, then suspect a leak in either the carb baseplate or throttle plate gaskets, the intake manifold gasket(s), or (unlikely but possible) hydarulic lifter preload isn't right and it's thowing the valve timing off.   The factory Pontiac rocker system isn't adjustable - the jam nuts are supposed to be tightened down onto the bottlenecks on the rocker studs and torqued to 20 lb ft.   Probably worth checking if you're not positive.

One way to check for leaks - get a spray can of starting fluid, or brake cleaner also works - any spray that's decently flammable.  With it running, spray a little around the carb base.  Also try spraying some on the top and bottom of where the intake manifold gaskets are.  If you find a spot where it suddenly runs a lot better, you've found a  spot where it's leaking.  

If it's got power brakes and running with everything disconnected and capped makes a big difference, reconnect all the lines you removed one at a time until you find the one that causes the leak (there may be more than one).

Pull your dipstick and take a good whiff of the oil.  If you smell gasoline, then you're leaking raw fuel into the oil pan from somewhere.  The carb is leaking fuel out of the bowl (cracked, a plug is leaking, etc), it's running WAY rich, float level is too high -- something.   That's diluting your oil and can wipe out your bearings in short order.  Change the oil and filter right away and find/fix the cause, don't run it any more than you absolutely have to until that's taken care of. 

Good luck!

Bear

Edited June 21, 2020 by BearGFR

[Wrongway]

Thanks for chiming in Bear. That flare fitting you seen has been replaced and a new pump installed today. The vacuum leaks I plan to start on Monday. Wifey said I wasn't allowed to do anything tomorrow lol. I'll also pick up a new vac gauge Monday. My rockers are comp roller tip. When I asked tech what to torque them down to I was told to "run them down just like you would the factory Pontiac". So I did. I torqued them down to 20lb. When I started the engine it ripped the heads off of 2 push rods. I figured it was because they were a set of older push rods and maybe the metal wasn't as strong. A week later with new comp push rods installed and rockers retorqued to 20lb I started the engine and snapped 7 out of 8 exhaust valves. I called comp the next day. The tech supervisor apologized a few times but since they don't sell valves there wasn't much he could do. He did say that the rocker set up I'm running (all comp) is adjustable and needs to be set to 0 lash plus a half turn. So with new Molly stainless valves installed she started and ran until this last fuel issue. Well, she ran in the drive way and around the block a couple of times. 1st time setting valve lash but I hear no chatter. The low vacuum was an issue even before that. I'll start pulling and capping Monday and let y'all know what happens. Oh yeah, I did also spray starting fluid around the carb and base gasket the other day while trying to figure out where the air bubbles were coming from. There were no changes in RPMs. So I'm guessing there good. Thanks again

[BearGFR]

10 hours ago, Wrongway said:

Thanks for chiming in Bear. That flare fitting you seen has been replaced and a new pump installed today. The vacuum leaks I plan to start on Monday. Wifey said I wasn't allowed to do anything tomorrow lol. I'll also pick up a new vac gauge Monday. My rockers are comp roller tip. When I asked tech what to torque them down to I was told to "run them down just like you would the factory Pontiac". So I did. I torqued them down to 20lb. When I started the engine it ripped the heads off of 2 push rods. I figured it was because they were a set of older push rods and maybe the metal wasn't as strong. A week later with new comp push rods installed and rockers retorqued to 20lb I started the engine and snapped 7 out of 8 exhaust valves. I called comp the next day. The tech supervisor apologized a few times but since they don't sell valves there wasn't much he could do. He did say that the rocker set up I'm running (all comp) is adjustable and needs to be set to 0 lash plus a half turn. So with new Molly stainless valves installed she started and ran until this last fuel issue. Well, she ran in the drive way and around the block a couple of times. 1st time setting valve lash but I hear no chatter. The low vacuum was an issue even before that. I'll start pulling and capping Monday and let y'all know what happens. Oh yeah, I did also spray starting fluid around the carb and base gasket the other day while trying to figure out where the air bubbles were coming from. There were no changes in RPMs. So I'm guessing there good. Thanks again

Ok! Thanks for the update - obviously there's a whole lot that I didn't know.   One question though, which rocker nuts are you using?   For your setup, you're going to require poly-locks (the kind that have the set screw in the center that you tighten down against the stud to lock the adjustment in place).  If you're using the original factory nuts, they won't stay where you put them and will always loosen up.  That could be the explanation for a lot of what you're experiencing.  Some site advertisements might leave you with the impression that these are only for roller systems, which is not accurate.  Do you still have any of the original pushrods and some of the damaged ones?  Are they the same length?  What else has changed on your heads?  (valve stem length, springs, spring installed height, etc.)   Whch rocker arms are you using and what's their ratio?  Are you sure that your valve springs allow enough travel and aren't going into coil bind?  That will bend/break parts too and can't be "adjusted out".

Here's and example of using/setting poly-locks

The process can be easier with a tool like this that combines both wrenches:

Edited June 21, 2020 by BearGFR

[Wrongway]

Yeah Bear I’m using poly locks and ARP rocker studs. I changed the nuts and studs out when I changed the exhaust valves because the nuts wouldn’t stay on. As far as other stuff done to the heads. They were completely rebuilt a local machine shop last year. Yes I've still got the old push rods and best I remember they were all the same length except the headless ones.

[Wrongway]

Oh btw, I did try to look inside with a mirror Indian. I could only see the side of the eccentric, not the front. So I cant say, but if memory serves correct I installed it with the open end towards the front like it came off.

[Last Indian]

On 6/20/2020 at 3:30 PM, Wrongway said:

Ok so the only real differences that I see is that the old pump looks like the spring is missing. Regardless, I hooked up the new pump, primed the carb and she started and ran on her own. Awesome!!! No air bubbles either. When I shut her off you can still see the fuel in the line drop back down 6”-8”. Next question is I told u that I ran an aluminum fuel line under the intake, above the valley pan. Should I be concerned about heat or vapor lock? Any more suggestions or concerns about the fuel system?

As long as it starts right up I guess I wouldn’t worry, but a good system should hold pressure between the pump and the carburetor! When the needle valve shuts off the in coming gas flow the pressure should stay between the carb and pump! FYI! What Bear says about the vac is good advice. For me though I think I’d just start with the ether since it sounds like you’re not really sure where the leak is! Start around the carb, than move to the manifold, but first check all your hoses and hose connections.

[Wrongway]

Will do, I sprayed around the carb and base last week while looking for leaks. I'll hit the intake tomorrow before I start unplugging things. I did also get a new hand held vacuum gauge today from my local parts house like Bear suggested.  

[JUSTA6]

Hope your missing spring isn't floatin around in the timing cover,  would be a mess if it got tangled up in the timing chain.  Might get caught between the main cap and pan as well.  Hope it JUSTA makes it into the bottom of the pan.  I was concerned and brought up the eccentric before and you showed us the pic of the timing chain and was sure you put it back together right.  Hope your over the prob's.

Edited June 23, 2020 by JUSTA6

[Wrongway]

Hey Justa, glad to hear from ya bro. In the pic of the timing chain, I sent that because I was thinking the little circle thing in the middle was the eccentric. If it’s not then y’all let me know and tell me where it is and I’ll send pics. I was thinking that was it. Yes I put everything back exactly like that pic showed. Looking at the new pump with the spring. On the inside of the lever there is a small post where the spring goes over it. A spring keeper if you will. On the old pump there is no “keeper” and there is no evidence that there ever was one or that one had broken off. I honesty believe that the spring was not on it when I installed it. At least that’s my hopes. That car starts and runs good now, I think. Engine still seems to vibrate more then I would think it should but I don’t know. I did do the vacuum tests today that Indian & Bear suggested. Running hooked up, Running everything blocked off, didn’t matter. Still showing 7hg of vacuum at 950RPM. I adjust the carb, reset timing and that’s the best I could get. Also, at 950RPM at idle and put into gear she drops to 500RPMs. I did buy a new hand held vacuum gauge and it’s all over the place. The gauge in the car is steady. But she does start and run on her own again lol, that’s something. The videos are of both gauges with the car running. JustA thought, could all of this be carb related?