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Pontiac of the Month

gscherer78ta's 1978 Trans Am

2019 February
of the Month

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Frosty

Rescuing a Rare and Powerful—and Wrecked—1965 Pontiac 2+2

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AAwTzgg.img?h=416&w=799&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f

That is sexy. Good article!

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Good read.

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Thanks guys.

As big, full-size Pontiacs go, the 2+2 is one of my favorites. Hard to beat a Bonne, Catalina, or Grand Prix convertible, but the 2+2 were awesome full size muscle cars.

I just wish the 2+2 Grand Prix of the 80s came with something more than a 305 V8.

Edited by Frosty

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7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Thanks guys.

As big, full-size Pontiacs go, the 2+2 is one of my favorites. Hard to beat a Bonne, Catalina, or Grand Prix convertible, but the 2+2 were awesome full size muscle cars.

I just wish the 2+2 Grand Prix of the 80s came with something more than a 305 V8.

I'm right there with you Frosty... the 2+2, 1965 specificity, is is one of my all-time favs also. I have a question for you, Frosty... The article says that except for the right front fender, right front door, and trunk lid, all the other body parts and frame came from the donor Cat. If that is true, then he would have had to swap firewall data plates. I have always been under the impression that it a BIG no-no to do that, but, judging from all the awards the car has garnered, it must be ok. Am I wrong then?

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stratman, if they did indeed swap firewall data plates, that is a huge no-no, but often hard to prove (unless you are silly enough to admit it!). Many states consider that fraud. That is like turning a Lemans into a GTO Judge, or a Mustang into a Shelby GT500.

Now this is where, in my mind, it gets a little complicated.

The 2+2 was a trim option off the Catalina, much like the original GTO was a trim option off the original '64 Tempest Lemans. So clearly getting another Catalina and making it a clone 2+2 is okay - so long as you present it that way. Now if the donor Catalina body and frame used in the restoration were also a 2+2 optioned Catalina, then there is no harm / no foul. We are kind of left wondering about that.

As I said, swapping data plates is indeed a No-No. Now since this is a trim option that we are talking about and both cars are Catalinas is there any real harm here (this is a philosophical question)? Is turning a base '93 Buick Roadmaster in a Limited Edition cause any harm? Does turning a Formula or Trans Am into a 1LE package cause harm? Food for thought. One of the reasons people get upset with clones is the misrepresentation of the car - what it is versus what it appears to be, and the appearance (of an original) is theoretically worth substantially more - hence the fraud.

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On 5/10/2018 at 9:11 AM, Frosty said:

stratman, if they did indeed swap firewall data plates, that is a huge no-no, but often hard to prove (unless you are silly enough to admit it!). Many states consider that fraud. That is like turning a Lemans into a GTO Judge, or a Mustang into a Shelby GT500.

Now this is where, in my mind, it gets a little complicated.

The 2+2 was a trim option off the Catalina, much like the original GTO was a trim option off the original '64 Tempest Lemans. So clearly getting another Catalina and making it a clone 2+2 is okay - so long as you present it that way. Now if the donor Catalina body and frame used in the restoration were also a 2+2 optioned Catalina, then there is no harm / no foul. We are kind of left wondering about that.

As I said, swapping data plates is indeed a No-No. Now since this is a trim option that we are talking about and both cars are Catalinas is there any real harm here (this is a philosophical question)? Is turning a base '93 Buick Roadmaster in a Limited Edition cause any harm? Does turning a Formula or Trans Am into a 1LE package cause harm? Food for thought. One of the reasons people get upset with clones is the misrepresentation of the car - what it is versus what it appears to be, and the appearance (of an original) is theoretically worth substantially more - hence the fraud.

You are absolutely right, Frosty... the 2+2 was an option on the Catalina as the GTO was an option on the LeMans in '65. The article did say he added a number of options that weren't on the PHS docs also. Perhaps the donor car was a triple black Catalina 2-door hardtop, then the data plate would match except for the VIN. 

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