C8 Corvette could be 850 HP

[stratman]

https://jalopnik.com/leaked-documents-say-the-mid-engined-c8-corvette-could-1820833304

[360Rocket]

so far I am not liking the lines of that car. Not sure why all the hype for a mid engine Corvette? If it was meant to be it would have been successful under Duntov decades ago. Just leave the damn car alone and keep the Domestic image that has been the basis of its success for over half a century. Why do we NOT want to be American anymore? Why does everyone want to emulate "European styling?"  If I want Euro, I'll buy Euro, If I want American Supercar that out performs Euro at 30% of the cost, I'll buy American. Didn't Chevy learn from the bastardization of the GTO? IT KILLED A BRAND!!!! OUR BRAND!!!!!

[Ringo64]

Agreed with ya @360Rocket. I think this could be a great car but a Corvette it is not.

The modern era "GTO" was a fantastic car, sleek, fast and overall performed well. However, I think GM's error was labeling it with the GTO badge, people took major offense to that. I still wouldn't mind owning one.

[Frosty]

Guys, this isn't GM's first dance toying with a mid-engine configuration for the Corvette. Anyone remember the Aerocoupe concept car?

The Aussie GTO was still the fastest power-to-weight GTO built. John Sawruk said it himself. The next one was the '74 GTO X-body. Go figure. So I'd buy a 2004-06 GTO too. I think it would have done better if they were allowed to market it more and allow that particular platform to evolve. 

 

The Aerocoupe at the GM Heritage Collection

[Ringo64]

Could be a reason why it was only a concept  .While I am open to a mid-engine sports car from GM, there is going to be some major backlash for it being GM's flagship sports car IMO.

[Frosty]

I tend agree with you Ringo. I think the Corvette is more than just the flagship for Chevrolet and GM, it's also the corporation's halo car.

To that end, the  Corvette has become an institution onto itself within GM as well as beyond. Name one other museum, in the world, dedicated to a single name plate, other the National Corvette Museum? The  museum itself is literally across the street from the Bowling Green Assembly plant.

So moving from front to mid-engine will be a huge institutional change. So why the change? I think 360 makes some excellent points. Obviously we have to hear GM's side of things - including why. Perhaps the mid-engine platform allows Chevy to chase after the Bugatti Veyron, who knows?

[360Rocket]

Frosty from what I hear GM is offering 2 versions of the vette. The current platform and the ZORA mid engine at a substantially higher price point. Past Corvettes have been attainable, simple in function and design, performance to cost ratio matched by no other car, and afforded the "common man" a chance to be part of an elite car family without paying a ridiculous "tax" to be part of that family. Those attributes will go away when the ZORA has a higher price point than a Ford GT. Don't get me wrong I was a fan of the Monaro GTO from a performance standpoint but was an easter egg for lack of a better description. No creativity, no nod to the past icon, and the materials used on this car, especially the interior ranked right up there with the Chrysler K car. AS old school GTO owners we were sent from GM countless surveys on what we would like to see "IF" a new GTO name badge was to be introduced and GM went into a totally different direction than we gave feedback. Lutz  just had to have a American built "Euro/German type" coupe to compete for the three German powerhouses customers. That was laughable and the end of Pontiac plain and simple.

[360Rocket]

The Plan

The C8 flagship, the Zora ZR1, will debut the new mid-engine architecture. Launching as a 2017 model, it will define the top of the Corvette hierarchy just as its precursors did in the 1990–1995 C4 generation and 2009–2013 C6 model years. As before, the ZR1 will be low volume, roughly 1500 units per annum, and high priced. We figure around $150,000. It’ll be a stand-alone special that will peacefully coexist in Chevy showrooms with C7 models for a few years. The new platform, with appropriate bodywork and cockpit changes, could also support a revived Cadillac XLR (with ­better sales success than the last one, we hope). By 2020, we expect the C7 to take its rightful place in the National Corvette/Sinkhole Museum and that all future models—yes, even the base Corvette—will shift to the mid-engine platform.

[Ringo64]

10 minutes ago, 360Rocket said:

Lutz  just had to have a American built "Euro/German type" coupe to compete for the three German powerhouses customers. That was laughable and the end of Pontiac plain and simple.

The Monaro is actually Aussie made but a lot of their influences do come from Europe so you are correct. In Lutz's book "Bean Counters VS Car Guys" it was very much his point of view that he wanted to bring muscle back to America but was forced with restrictions from throughout the company among other items. Thus bringing over the Monaro was second best.

14 minutes ago, 360Rocket said:

Frosty from what I hear GM is offering 2 versions of the vette. The current platform and the ZORA mid engine at a substantially higher price point.

7 minutes ago, 360Rocket said:

We figure around $150,000

That price point is insane but mid-engine isn't cheap to build. I'm still meh over it.

[360Rocket]

I used the term Monaro as a guide to the fact I was referring to the newer GTO instead of the classic GTO. Aussie GM car manufacturing recently ceased.

 

Accountants and lawyers have historically ruined good cars, companies, and exciting auto trends, clowns all of them.

Edited December 15, 2017 by 360Rocket

[stratman]

I'm going to hold off on an opinion of the C8 styling till I see it with no camo (maybe we are looking at the Cadillac under the camo?). I like that they are going to build the C7 and the C8 (for a few years anyway) making the Corvette a two car lineup, like Ferrari, with front engine and mid-engine models. I'm also glad to see that there is no V6 available (forever,hopefully), only V8's.  I think I read (or maybe I made it up, lol), that there will be no bow ties or Chevrolet script to be found anywhere on it making the Corvette a kind of stand alone model, even though they will, of course, be sold only at Chevrolet dealerships. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by stratman

[Frosty]

360, I know some of the details of the Aussie GTO development and why many of the classic details that older GTO owners would have wanted, didn't make it into the newer GTO. This is information I heard from both John Sawruk and Jim Wangers, so I consider it reliable information.

Once Bob Lutz introduced to the press that a new GTO was going to come out in time for the 2004 model year, GM had to fast track the Monaro program into overdrive. There were significant changes to the Monaro that had to be made in order to make it a GTO: 

1. Make it look like a Pontiac (split grille, Pontiac logos, etc.)

2. Re-engineer the car for U.S. emissions, mileage, and crash safety standards - moving the gas tank, catalytic converters, etc.

3. Certify the car to the U.S. Federal government - in all categories - as well as California's A.R.B. - government testing

The new GTO turned out to be quickest new car program in GM U.S. history since the '57 Chevy. GM was allowed the unique opportunity to "piggyback" some of the US certifications for the GTO off the new Grand Prix federal certifications because both cars were similar shapes, dimensions, and wheelbases. Otherwise, the 2004 GTO would have at least been a 2005 model. Let's just say that was a first and a significant time saver.

The rush to get the car to market forced GM to keep many of the original Monaro styling elements in place. So iconic things like dual hood scopes, hood tachs, Hurst shifters, etc. would have to come much later (again because of the US certifications). There just wasn't enough time to incorporate all the classic features and get it to market as Lutz had promised.

Now the GTO lasted only 3 years. We did get the dual hood scopes before it was over. The problem was the Monaro platform was already long in the tooth when the GTO came along. GM planned to completely re-do the platform and design a whole new Monaro and a new GTO. That didn't happen, even though rumors still persist that concept artwork of a new generation GTO exist within the walls of GM Design.

The problem for the U.S. was a combination of poor sales and the gas guzzler tax (GTO's limited production was restricted by Monaro production line capacity). The GTO was not seen as a huge seller to the Pontiac marketing geniuses (who, in my opinion, still don't understand what muscle cars at all), so it was nixed in favor of the G8 (which was based on the widely more popular Commodore platform). You know the story after that, GM starting loosing money and went bankrupt and nixed Pontiac altogether.

Now I will also argue that the new GTO was poorly marketed during it's 3-year run. I made these point known to Jim Wangers and he eventually agreed with me. Jim did a lecture that I was able to attend on historical GTO advertising over the years and how understated it was and why. I suggested during the Q&A session to Jim that Pontiac was still doing that with the new GTO. I pointed out that the three new GTO commercials vastly understated the entire car. In one of the last issues of Pontiac Enthusiast, Jim wrote a scathing editorial on Pontiac's General Managers and marketing execs for the mismanagement of Pontiac. When he got to the new GTO, many of my points were there.

Lastly, if you don't think that GM understood what a new GTO should  have been, I invite you to re-exam the 1999 Concept GTO. IMO, that is what the newer GTO should have been or at least the next gen that never was. Now examine  the Concept GTO's lines and compare it to the 5th and 6th gen Camaro. I think you will find that while we don't have a new Firebird or GTO, those lines live on in the Camaro, to some degree.

 

1999 Concept GTO

Edited December 15, 2017 by Frosty

[Professur]

I wonder how much it would take to turn a new Chumparo into that?

 

[Frosty]

I've often wondered that myself Pro. Clearly a lot of fab work is still required. One off custom wheels. Custom front and rear ends, etc., etc. etc.

Not to mention that the 1999 Concept GTO is really a wheeled buck. It is not even a working prototype. So the interior has to be fabbed from scratch (there is an artist rendering of the dash though).

If I were to build this, I would start with a '98 or '99 Firebird shell or firewall- just to get a legitimate VIN so I could drive it on the street and be '99 period correct - VIN wise. Perhaps use a wrecked 5th gen Camaro as a doner car as well for some of the key lines and structure (e.g. windshield/roof/back glass/fender lines).

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Frosty

[Ringo64]

23 minutes ago, Professur said:

I wonder how much it would take to turn a new Chumparo into that?

 

Believe there are similar efforts not exactly that but it's expensive. Here's a link: https://jalopnik.com/5799441/pontiac-gto-judge-revived-by-camaro-bending-enthusiasts

[Frosty]

2 hours ago, Ringo64 said:

Believe there are similar efforts not exactly that but it's expensive. Here's a link: https://jalopnik.com/5799441/pontiac-gto-judge-revived-by-camaro-bending-enthusiasts

Trans Am Depot and a few others have been around for awhile. Prolly six figures before all is said and done. And you still end up with Camaro VIN.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Frosty

[360Rocket]

I remember that concept well and I had hoped that would have been the direction they should have gone in to be successful. I also was a fan of the Trans Am Depot kit hanging on the Camaro body although the front nose was out of scale for my tastes. THIS is the car I would have sold my house and kids to own if they just would have listened to our feedback. THIS is the car Jim Wangers would have been proud and passionate about to promote AND it would have been American and kept American jobs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by 360Rocket

[Guitarsextreme]

I could build this and not make it look like a camaro body styling. But make the lines more pontiac styling and true to it's roots.

[Ringo64]

5 minutes ago, Guitarsextreme said:

I could build this and not make it look like a camaro body styling. But make the lines more pontiac styling and true to it's roots.

Do it! You won't!

[Frosty]

Oh crap! A dare. To GE! This oughta be good!

[JUSTA6]

Double dog dare ya.  

[Frosty]

Ran across this article today.....lots for the technoweenies to stare at and digest.

https://jalopnik.com/gms-lawyers-just-inadvertently-confirmed-those-mid-engi-1821340731

 

[Ringo64]

How interesting the bit about the lawyers. Oh, this day in age...

[Frosty]

I guarantee some is going to get fired over this. GM hates seeing their intellectual property get out into the public before they are ready to release it. Especially in a media fiasco like this.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Frosty

[Frosty]

Here are some spy photos of the C8 Corvette. I am sure the GM brass are ticked to see these photos out.

 

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1096198_2020-chevrolet-corvette-c8-spy-shots#image=100557643