Last Indian

Great job my friend!

Because of my involvement with GM during the development of the 300 GPX I knew about its existence & it’s one of the things that encourage me to buy my 2000 when I needed to replace my daily driver. Then when I sold the “69” & time moved on I knew the benchmark I had to work towards. Then the more I delved into this platform the more I could see how much I could improve upon even what Pontiac had done in the original 300 GPX concept car, but time was on my side, as it never is in development projects & all the up front work those original designers did was a big head start for me. Also there were some intriguing developments! In 2000, before I had even started building the Indian, Pontiac released a new prototype concept car at the auto show & it made me realize there was even more I could do than I had previously thought! That came from the first initial prototype G8! Which was sitting on the MS2000 platform in the sixth generation Grand Prix dress! This prototype was a V8 all wheel drive with 350hp. Yet it was all stuffed in & under an MS2000 platform & for all intent & purpose it looked just like a Grand Prix! So if you look at the specs of this car or the 300 GPX & you look at the Indian you will see that there is very little difference between either of those two cars & the Indian. Except that the Indian has a better CG, a better RC. A better weight distribution than the 300 GPX & I can’t say for the G8 prototype as I could never find it. Even the rear spoiler on the Indian is similar to that of the G8, but I like the Indian one better as the outer tips of the spoiler don’t turn down like the G8s do. Hood a little like mine tranny cooler, similar to mine. spoiler similar to mine looks like a GP interior to me.

Good to hear from you Fitzy. So the Hub gave you fits, so you made a tool! So maybe you should think about the name, NOmofitzhubbababba! Or not! Again my apologies!

I, pretty much like anybody raised in the “50” & “60”, was born & bred on rear wheel drive & big horsepower! So as I’ve stated before, when I sold my “69” Z/28 I thought I was done! 35 years was a long time, I wasn’t getting any younger, my work was now consuming most nearly all of my time. It takes a lot of effort to get multiple multi million dollar projects off the ground, so the effort to go find something else that would suffice for what I wanted in place of the Z would take more effort than I felt I had. Not to mention the effort to rebuild it, MY WAY! Which is usually a pretty anal exercise. Thus the evolution of the Last Indian! Now most hard core muscle car guys are going to be hard to reach & I’m not trying to change anyones mind! I too love rear wheel drive & big power, but this post is about the MS2000 platform & is worth noting even for those individuals! Yet I know there are some folks on here who own this platform as well. So I repeat, this is not the GM10 platform or even an upgrade of the GM10. It is a completely new & different design. Now that this platform has past the 25 year mark there is a lot of data as to how it has performed & there seems to also be a renewed interest in the fact that it was a great design on creation & still has great potential. Much of this is based on the original 300 GPX concept car! Yet what is amazing to me & nobody, I mean nobody seems to recognizes, is the G8 concept was originally based on this same platform! Now in finality for production it wasn’t because it move to the Holden Zeta platform & the entire concept, especially in physical appearance changed, but the original concept was designed around the MS2000 platform & the Seventh generation (“97”-“03”) Grand Prix! What’s even more amazing is for all of the emphasis on Pontiac’s wide track design in the day the Grand Prix actually had the narrowest track of all the MS2000 (Wii-body) cars. Still it had the lowest CG & RC! And the potential, through modifications to have the widest& thus lowering the CG & RC even further! While still keeping the tires tucked inside the fenders! Notice that the 300 GPX is in concept a sedan, while the G8 is a coup n concept. This was the 300 GPX concept on the MS2000 platform. This was the G8 concept car on the MS2000 Platform in Grand Prix dress.

Been there done that! With the “69”! That what we refer to as a ahh Sh- -t moment!

Funny you say that JustA, I once tossed around the idea of doing ghost flame on the Indian.

The Last Indian Summer!

Yeah, that was the GM10 platform, but the MS2000 was a completely different platform. It ran from “97”-“03” for Pontiac, Olds & Buick. And till “99” for Chevy. It replaced the GM10 in those models & cost 2.2 billion. It was dubbed the W2-body. In 2004 that platform was updated, but the didn’t turn out to be a good decision as the actual largest change was to change the front subframe from steel to aluminum! Which had a lot of problems with cracking at the welds. So within the W-body platform there were 2 different platforms & 3 different designs. Only the MS2000 platform was design in the Detroit area & never had anything to do with CPC & was never built in Canada either.

Ditto! Great job! And fun will be had by all!

An that sucks when you get sick on vacation. I’ve been in those kind of meetings, not fun if your the target! Fortunately I haven’t been. The MS2000 platform was designed by an outside company in the Detroit area. I use to know the nam of the company that did the design, but I can’t find it anymore, do you remember who it was?

True enough buddy! Hated that time! I wasn’t in need of a car until 2000. At that time I still had both Camaros, but my parents as well as my in-laws were at that age were I needed a 4 door sedan! Fortunately this evolution in that platform helped. As they say the rest is history. Thought you got lost! Haven’t heard form you for a bit!

The MS2000 platform is one of the most underrated GM platforms of all times! Now don’t misconstrue that statement! It’s not the best of all time or the most favorited, but hands down, as the years have rolled on more & more of the old guard have recognized that! Most folks, even those that own these cars don’t realize that the 1997-2003 Grand Prix, known as the W-body, were unique, but it wasn’t the W-body that most people relate it to! It was actually called the W2-body! That generation of GP’s alone were on the MS2000 platform & the specific configuration that ran from “97”-“03”. The 6th generation (“88”-“96”) was on the GM10 platform, this was the first W-body platform. This GM10 platform was a disaster for GM. The GM10 platform was designed in Canada & cost $7 billon dollars! The 7th generation (“97”-“03”) was the MS2000 platform, known as the W2-body. This platform debuted in “97” cost $2.2 billon & was designed in the Detroit area. There is much confusion about the MS2000 platform! Only the “97”-“03” Pontiac Grand Prix ran this specific configuration on the MS2000 platform. No other division ran it! Buick & Olds ran the MS2000 platform from “97”-“03” like Pontiac, but theirs was a different configuration & components were different! The Pontiac version was just enough different that it made all the difference in handling! The Grand Prix had a longer wheel base, a wider stance, a lower CG & a lower RC out of the factory. Which when looked at after the fact & translated into improvement designs; that became substantial! And while all the attention always centered around the supercharged GTP & the NA 3800 was ignored, that power plant was a lot like the old 283 Chevy motor! Remember the 283 actually became the 302 DZ motor! Folks like to say it was a 327 with a 283 crank, but it wasn’t. The 302 DZ motor actually produced 1.9 horsepower per cubic inch! More than any production engine by any manufacturer in history to that time per cubic inch & for many years after. While you are not going to get those kind of gains out of a NA 3800 you could easily get another 100 to 125 hp without a major rebuild & 200 + with a hard core total rebuild! At the end of the day power is easy compared to trying to make a platform something it’s not! This is why the MS2000 made such a difference, but that’s been ignored. Chevy on the other hand continued with the GM10 platform until “99” in the Monte Carlo & Lumina. This is the reason I named my Grand Prix, The Last Indian! The “97”-“03” Pontiac Grand Prix was designed in the Detroit area, built in Kansas City & a good share of the parts were American made! Only the Grand Prix & the Olds Intrigue were built in Kansas City, but the Buick Century & Regal were built in China or Canada.

Yeah, never gum the tires first other at the same time or last never first. Especially in cool weather!

Summit Racing have a lot for you to choose from.

Welcome to FP! With what you have you already have a good start whether you go Tempest or GTO! The 350, with very little work you can go to 400 horse. Drop in a set of 4:11 gears, forget the 3 speed tranny, I presume a 350 turbo!? & go for a 700-R-4 & & you will have a very impressive ride with regard to power & performance!

The Last Indian! A ground pounder! Those of you who have read the build know why I call it that. Heavily modified to do just that. Not much left untouched inside or out. Even more was either built or extensively modified by me. Built to be in the vein of the old muscle cars, that when modified could have a great blend of power, handling & looks. 2000 Grand Prix F.1 GTX

I must admit I’ve never worked on anything, except FWD, that ran ball bearing hubs. Everything else has been tapered roller bearings, at least that I can remember, but I am older than dirt so the memory may be - - - what were we talking about? Oh yeah so the last time I had lunch

Yup, I got that. And you are 100% correct with regard to tapered roller bearings. That said I must plead stupid with regard to ever seeing any old school GM rear wheel drive cars that used a ball bearing arrangement for the front spindles! As I indicated a few posts back, it looks as though someone modified that hub. So my point is that you do not install two opposed ball bearing on a shaft, in this case a spindle, without a internal sleeve that runs between the two inner bearing races & that sleeve can’t compress. So when you tighten the nut you tighten it to a torque spec & leave it there. Just like you do for a front wheel drive cars front hub. This is because of how the construction of a ball bearing is designed vs a roller bearing. I just what to make sure I understand what you are precisely asking, as I don’t want to steer you wrong.

Well, I hear what Kiwi is saying & I’m not saying he is wrong, because I’m not clear on what is implied. So I would need a better explanation of what you are doing. A front spindle bearing that takes a tapered roller bearing is set with a preload in a certain way because the races are tapered. So you are actually loading the rollers between the two tapered races of each assembly. While a ball bearing, bearing is already assembled & as a unit already loaded since it is not tapered. The preload on ball bearings to each other, like a hub, that is set in a manner that only loads the two lower race, without any movement of the actual races, against each other. If you do it any other way, you are setting the balls of the assembly in shear against the upper & lower races of its respective unit. Just trying to make sure I understand what is being asked!

That’s great to hear! I’ll keep my fingers crossed 🤞! People like that are JustA plain evil. It’s not a mistake, it’s not incompetence! It’s purposeful & calculated! While there may be nothing we can do, we have your back in any way we can, as Steve said!

This is horrible kiwi! NZ does have trademarking, so I presume you never trademarked your company name? If not you need to find out if this company has or if they have started the process. If they have not than you need to file immediately! But if they have started the process then you need to find out what the law is in NZ for filing! There are circumstances, depending on the law in a given country, that sometimes can recognize first to file, other counties recognize first to use. Unfortunately your lawyer is probably not well versed in trademarking law so you need to talk to one who is, but you could start with a call to your NZ trademarking government office.

It is, it’s a LSX crate engine. Still not that much of a leap to get to the 389.

Kiwi, look at this a little at a time! I don’t want you to mess yourself ! This is a 1956 Star Chief! What you want Is tucked nicely under the hood! https://www.fusionmotorco.com/vehicles/839/1956-pontiac-star-chief-convertible-resto-mod Oh! By the way, it’s 900hp!

Hey Paul, welcome! Sorry for the problem. Not that it matters now as it appears you have it handled, but from the 20,000 foot view it really looks like somebody altered the hub to put a different bearing in it. No manufacturer would make that thin of a wall on a wheel hub. & wow love the car too! Beautiful!

The build for the “74” proved to be a good one. Made a vast improvement to handling as well as a better/quieter ride, but it paled by a huge margin to the “69” build! I have said it before! I have driven more cars of all makes & models, domestic & foreign. Sports, luxury & trucks than I can even begin to name. Not one compared to that “69”! One of the subtle differences is the orientation of the 2x3 channel & it’s configuration. In the “74” the 3” side is sideways. This gave a flat look to the frame like a traditional frame. It also allowed the frame to be hidden by the rocker panels. But the G forces acting on the frame when loaded in cornering create a substantially different effect on that orientation than they do when inverted! The “69” had the 3” side, vertical, as well as a dogleg in the frame at a critical point, the front leaf spring eye attachment. This orientation changed everything about the physics of the design when acted on by G forces. The down side was everyone would ask why the frame hung down at the point! Look at it this way Kiwi! You love your Hellcat, right! Imagine just for a moment that it weighted 3350 lbs. instead of 4400 lbs. & the power to weight ratio was .182 instead of .161! Plus it pulled 1.17 Gs in a 300 foot skid pad test. That was the “69”! Damn I miss that car!